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Fix first turn. Seriously

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1/19/2015 18:18:50   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Either make it absolute or raise the chance that someone with higher support goes first. 60 support vs 40 opponents with 37 support and they went first 35 out of 40 times.

If theyre going first because theyre a lower rank its not fair. II battled just as hard to get to level 40 and I shouldn't lose because Im a higher rank and I actually tried to not abuse the game and invest some stat points into support.

I will absolutely expose this game and post builds on fb and twitter until your balance is absolutely shattered if this is not fixed
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 1
1/19/2015 18:48:35   
Variation
Member
 

 I would like to see what the real formula is for first strike calculations. The one on the EpicDuel Wiki is completely off considering I've had instances according to the formula where I've had over a 100% chance to start first on my opponents, but yet they still started.

There are people who invest more into support solely for higher chances to start first, but when you see suicide strength builds with base support for their respective classes starting first on players with 80 support it gets kinda annoying. Support needs to have a much, much stronger chance on first strike. That's about as simple as it gets -- in most matches every single turn matters so why should the player who plans this out by investing into support(for first turn advantage) get screwed over multiple amount of times? It's not even a luck issue either, when players with much less support than you are starting about as much as you are, you know from pure logic it's silly. It's pretty crazy and it's an obvious flaw with whatever formula they're using for first turn calculations.
Post #: 2
1/19/2015 18:52:51   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Support used to give you a guaranteed first turn chance if you had a certain amount higher than your opponent. If I remember correctly they put a cap on it sometime early in Omega.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
1/19/2015 19:06:35   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 @ Variation: I wish they would fix this formula because youre right, its absolutely silly and I know that F5 builds especially get mad when someone goes first with 37 support. It's absolutely insane and in a game llike this you cant just give the first turn to anyone because first turn is a huge factor in deciding who will win or who will lose. Even now I just lost to a level 39 because they let him go first even though his support was 10 less than mine.

@Dual thrusters: I wish theyd release that number. I am completely unsure of how hgh my support has to be in order to go first
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 4
1/19/2015 20:02:42   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I'm pretty sure they did release it. It's hidden somewhere in the DNs from a while ago.
Epic  Post #: 5
1/19/2015 20:21:57   
Variation
Member
 

 Here is what I found in the Design Notes archive regarding first strike changes --

quote:

First Strike overhaul:
Old formula overly confusing and scaled poorly
New formula = From a base of 50%, gain +1.5% chance to go first for each point of Support you have over your opponent, and +5% for each level under your opponent.
Example: Level 21 with 28 Supp VS Level 20 with 30 Supp. Level 20 player gains 5% for being one level lower, and 3% for having 2 more Support, for a 58% chance to go first.


That change took place in Omega and is the formula on the EpicDuel Wiki, which has either been changed, or is bugged. I couldn't find anything else besides some first strike change that took place in 2012, which isn't relevant considering there was from the design notes post I linked a first strike change that took place after that.

< Message edited by Variation -- 1/19/2015 20:22:12 >
Post #: 6
1/19/2015 20:46:44   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Ok so ill try to go by that. lvl 40 with 60 support vs lvl 40 with 37 support.... lvl 40 with 60 support should have a 84.5% chance to go first. Yet out of 40 matches against opponents with 37 support I only went first 5 times.

That's broken
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 7
1/20/2015 4:45:00   
King Bling
Member

True, I have 47+14+2 ,and a 33 supp enemy starts first, i have 95% chance to go first still that same person 3 times in a row got the first turn i dont think 5%>95%. Is it?
Post #: 8
1/20/2015 11:34:54   
Remorse
Member

They should just make a proper bonus,

for example if you go second you get more rage, which is also effected by the support difference (Low difference, low rage bonus), edit could also be effected by level gap, if your higher level you also get less bonus rage for going second.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/20/2015 11:37:46 >
Epic  Post #: 9
1/20/2015 12:55:06   
King Bling
Member

Not at all, more supp = first turn and secondly your suggestion will give the low supp more advantage, which means people will opt less support so they go second and get instant free rage and pwn the f5 even more.
Post #: 10
1/20/2015 13:01:36   
Remorse
Member

^ Did you not read what I said?

I said the difference between support will determine the rage bonus, so those with low support get little to no rage bonus.

However those with high support that go second will get a large rage bonus.



< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/20/2015 13:02:01 >
Epic  Post #: 11
1/20/2015 17:02:35   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 whatever they do I just know one thing: if first turn snt fixed in one month, and I mean letting people with higher support go first most of the time, then balance will be in for one hell of a treat

EDIT: fought someone with 18 support 5 times while I have 40. they went first all the time. I lost 4 times out of 5 cause he decides that hes going to take advantage of his chance to go first since hes rank 1 and just tank strength. that's not right. I cant lie, id do the same thing if I were him but its not right. its brilliant honestly, but not right

Posts merged, please don't double post. ~WhiteTiger

< Message edited by WhiteTiger -- 1/22/2015 17:59:48 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
1/20/2015 23:43:14   
Qwerty Again
Member

I am not sure about this but I believe ranks are not factored into first strike lie levels are.
Post #: 13
1/21/2015 2:35:27   
Mother1
Member

@ qwerty again

They aren't factored in last I checked.
Epic  Post #: 14
1/21/2015 11:17:31   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 I guess I am extremely unlucky then.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 15
1/22/2015 14:36:43   
nowras
Member

U need 34 support to 100% start 1st thats why i used the 45+34 support build in BM so no one with 45 support or less starts 1st
But ik that there are alot of lucky players in ED such as Ionut (Always starts 1st, defls AT LEAST 2-3 times and blocks AT LEAST 1 time) and i lose to him by 40 hp cuz of all that luck (EVERYTIME)
ED should reduce the luck chance i mean like if i have 21 more support i should 100% start not when i have 34 and make the defl/block chance LOWER i mean defl and block are capped to 35% they should be capped to 25%
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
1/22/2015 14:49:16   
Variation
Member
 

 Doesn't matter how much you theoretically need to start first. The formula to start first has either been changed or is currently bugged. The fact that players with, according to the formula have a 100%+ chance to start first aren't.

I used an 80 support focus TM build before, and people with 45 support and less started first pretty frequently.

EDIT: In case anyone wants to know how to come up with how much more support you need than your opponent to start theoretically, considering it has either been changed or is currently bugged, you can read below.

First case -- same level. 

100 = 50 + (yourSupport - enemySupport)(3/2)

50 = (yourSupport - enemySupport)(3/2)

50(2/3) = yourSupport - enemySupport

100/3 = yourSupport - enemySupport

So you need at least 34 more support than your opponent if you are the same level as them if they round up or 33 more if they round down.

________________________________________

Second case -- n levels higher than your opponent. 

100 = 50 + (yourSupport - enemySupport)(3/2) - 5n

50 = (yourSupport - enemySupport)(3/2) - 5n

5n + 50 = (yourSupport-enemySupport)(3/2)
(5n+50)(2/3) = yourSupport - enemySupport

(10n+100)/3 = yourSupport - enemySupport

So lets say you're 4 levels higher than your opponent. If that's the case according to the base first strike formula you need at least (10(4) + 100)/3
140/3 more support than your opponent to start first which is 47 more support rounded up.

________________________________________

Third case -- n levels lower than your opponent 

100 = 50 + (yourSupport - enemySupport)(3/2) + 5n

50 = (yourSupport - enemySupport)(3/2) + 5n

50 - 5n = (yourSupport - enemySupport)(3/2)

(50 - 5n)(2/3) = yourSupport - enemySupport

(100-10n)/3 = yourSupport - enemySupport


So lets say you're 4 levels lower than your opponent, then the support you would need to start first is at least (100 - 10(4))/3
60/3 more support than your opponent to start first which is 20 more support.

All of those formulas are accurate to the either old first strike formula or currently bugged first strike formula(when it wasn't bugged).

< Message edited by Variation -- 1/22/2015 19:25:07 >
Post #: 17
1/22/2015 17:35:53   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 ^ Yea you're right, it really doesn't matter at all. I figured out actually that when I have 60 support I tend to not go first against people with 37 support. Yet when I lower my support to 37 or 40 I go first a majority of the time. Something is definitely wrong.

Another thing I would like to add is the fact that when Im using support Mercenary it is interesting because every single point of support seems to matter when you are fighting another support mercenary. I had 1 less support than my opponent and apparently he started first each and every time.

P.S. Thanks for the formulas, im gonna have to start using them.

AQ DF Epic  Post #: 18
1/22/2015 17:54:24   
Variation
Member
 

 ^You could make even more formulas that go off the base first strike formula, but it would be pretty pointless considering it has either been changed or not working correctly.

You could get the range to have at least a 90%+ chance to start first, just to name one. However, when it generally comes to situations such as this, the only way you can prove the formula is false is when you have a >= 100% chance to start first on an opponent and they start. Even if you had a 99% chance to start first and someone else started it would be mathematically incorrect to say the formula is broken. That is why I was only interested in showing the formulas that give you the support you need for at least a 100% chance on your opponents (relative to their support of course).

There is probably a cap meaning the code will not accept any outputs higher than the cap. Whatever there is -- a change in the formula, a new formula, bugged formula, or a cap I'm really interested to see what it is.

The reason why I believe a cap is probable is because if there currently isn't one then either A) it's bugged or B) it has been changed/replaced.


EDIT: @Below: I've seen that thread already, and it could be or the developers have just made changes to it (talking about first strike chance).

< Message edited by Variation -- 1/22/2015 19:16:34 >
Post #: 19
1/22/2015 19:11:12   
nowras
Member

Variation it's bugged cuz the rage is also counted wrongly u can check This Thread
Well i can say SUPPORT IS TOTALLY BUGGED.
AQW Epic  Post #: 20
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