Focus as a percentage!


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9/8/2014 6:05:33

Remorse
Member

Ok guys,

I think I have come up with a solution to focus,

Another big problem with focus is that it rewards you for a high investment into balanced stats,

But what if your build is still completely balanced but your investment is lower because for example you have higher HP or energy, or a lower level.
Or perhaps your a lower level and you can't even reach the higher levels of focus, making robots less significant at lower levels.

Why should this be the case? focus should be defined as a reward for having balanced stats, NOT a reward for having HIGH balanced stats.

So what if focus worked as a percentage of balanced stats?

How would it work?

For example,

Let's say you had 30 points in each stat and the rest was HP,
This would still be considered balanced and would have a balanced percentage of 100% focus therefore having the max damage robot boost.

Now lets say you fully spammed a stat and completely neglected investing in another, you would receive a 0% balanced percentage (focus %) and therefore receive no robot damage bonus.

Obviously the formula for calculating this balanced percentage would be complicated however players don't need to know the formula as they can automatically work it out for you and display it for you as you adjust your build.

Though the formula could work like this:
At level one you start off with 50% focus, then every stat point investment after that calculates weather or not you are moving towards balanced stats or further away from it while also taking into consideration the amount of stats you can invest into stats.

Why work like this?

Well their major significant advantages of working like this,

-This first is as I stated before you can have balanced stats and then still invest into HP without losing robot damage,

-And the second probably biggest bonus is that you don't have to be completely balanced with your stats to still receive a significant bonus,

-And lastly, it makes robots a significant thing at lower levels giving more variety to lower levels.

These reasons will massively increase variety viability.

Lets say you decided to have 50 in one stat, 45 in another 2, and 40 in the last stat, in the current system that would be 4 focus and would be really silly thing to do as you merely need to invest 5 more stats into the 40 stat so you can get a significant robot advanatge,
in my proposed new system you would have about 95% balanced percentage (95% focus) and therefore still receive the bulk of the robot damage bonus.

What this does is it opens up the variety I mentioned before that gets excluded, it means you can be rewarded for being semi balanced, and the reward for going fully balanced is only slightly more in terms of robot damage, currently the step between 4 and 5 focus is HUGE.

And it doesn't force you to make you build a specific way, currently focus is like the old agility system, their are clear specific lines that determine optimum levels which can harm creativity and variety.

How would it scale to incorporate extra robot damage?

I have though of two ways we could use this new stat (percentage balanced stats, or focus %) use this figure to affect robot damage so that it gives the extra robot damage know it to give:

-First Method: For energy percentage lower then 100% for your new "percentage balanced stats" figure you will reduce your robot damage by 0.25%.

So lets say you stats were 80% balanced, that's 20% less that 100%, therefore you lose 5% robot damage (20*0.25).
For this figure to work the robot base damage must scale with level and be around say 600 damage at level 40.
In this scenario 5% off 600 damage = 570 damage, which is still very high damage. This amount may need to be lowered but I think it would be a good thing if scaling of the robot damage with focus was much less then it is now, to ensure that semi balanced variates can sill thrive without needing to go full balance.

If you had 100% focus, the damage would be obviously 600.

-Second Method: Your focus percentage is multiplied by 200, and this new figure represents how much bonus damage you get for your robot.

So, lets say you have 80% focus, this is multiplied by 200, so 200*0.8 = 160, you therefore receive 160 bonus damage to your robot,
and lets say the robot scaled per level, at lvl 40 the robot has 400 base damage, 400+160= 560 damage.

And again if you had max focus (100%) you would receive the full 200 bonus damage to your robot and receive 600 damage in total.

What do you guys think?

One thing to note, is working as a percentage means lower levels will be able to reach strong robot damage early so they would also need to implement significant level scaling on robots like other weapons have.

Also let me know if I need to explain anything better,
from what I can gather this seems pretty complicated, also keep in mind that the formulas aren't particularly important just so long as we know what improves robot damage and we can see the effect differences in it has, then we should have enough information as players as required.

In a way this is similar to the luck formulas, most players don't even know what they are or how it works, they just know a certain stat increases it and they can see that change in battles.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 9/8/2014 6:12:13 >

Epic

Post #: 1

9/8/2014 17:37:47

Stonehawk
Member

It makes senses somehow, focus and balance but... let's be honest, if it worked that way, I could make a 2600 health build with 600 robot damage and... I dunno, it would be kinda annoying and senseless... if it was the only influence to robots damage, the game would be a chaos in my opinion. It should depend on something else, not only equalizing all stats.

In fact, you suggestion will only benefit high health/energy, the other stats would have to be as similar as possible, so there would probably be only 2 kinds of builds: Those that ignores balance to abuse stats (dex mages mostly, since high tech dudes only worked because of robot), and those that balance stats for high health and are completely beaten for having low defensive stats (dex and tech) being easily blocked and deflected.

High tech focus have a chance against dex abusers, for example, but this change would make it impossible, in my opinion.

I still prefer +40 robot damage for each +5 +5 +5 +5 endlessly as I suggested (focus 7 max on lvl 40). It's good to hear new ideas and opinions, even though I disagree with this one.

P.S.: I think focus is made so people don't forget to invest on all stats. It's not meant to make people use all stats on the same ratio...

< Message edited by Stonehawk -- 9/8/2014 17:41:50 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 2

9/9/2014 4:47:13

Remorse
Member

^ Lets not forget that for high HP builds to be effective they need a consistent damage source, which is why they also generally spam a stat.

That means using a high focus % wont necessarily be overpowered, but it will become viable.

quote:

In fact, you suggestion will only benefit high health/energy, the other stats would have to be as similar as possible, so there would probably be only 2 kinds of builds: Those that ignores balance to abuse stats (dex mages mostly, since high tech dudes only worked because of robot), and those that balance stats for high health and are completely beaten for having low defensive stats (dex and tech) being easily blocked and deflected.

This is not the case at all,

Focus as it is currently has the effect of massively constricting variety into two forms,
but having focus as a percentage and relatively low scaling open it up to multiple builds,
You don't necessarily have to have specific stat arrangement to have strong robot damage, it just has to work out that the amount of stats required to be balanced is low, in order to have a high focus % this means variety is much more open.

As for spammer builds, don't bring them into an example to not do something, if abuse builds are an issue then that is a separate issue.

You don't go, "na we can't change focus because abuse builds are strong and focus needs to be strong to compete with it", what a load of BS, you fix both issues to make the game enjoyable.

quote:

P.S.: I think focus is made so people don't forget to invest on all stats. It's not meant to make people use all stats on the same ratio...

Well focus as it is, also forces people to have the same ratio, changing it to a percentage actually lowers this immensely.

So basically you are providing supporting evidence FOR my idea with this statement.

WHY?

Current system they define what you MUST HAVE, you MUST HAVE 45 in each stat for focus or 40 etc.

My system is soooo much more flexible, you can put a little bit more here, put a little bit more there and nothing major changes it terms of robot damage because as long as the overall balance percentage is still high robot damage will still be significant.

Focus should be a small bonus for balancing out stats with some flexibility,

Not a major bonus for sticking to a strict line.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 9/9/2014 4:49:06 >

Epic

Post #: 3

9/9/2014 10:15:54

Elloisoul
Member

not this again.... not supported focus is fine as it is for me..

Post #: 4

9/9/2014 10:19:38

Remorse
Member

^ Thanks for reading it and providing valuable contribution.

Please, if your not gonna bother to read my posts don't even comment on it.

Epic

Post #: 5

9/9/2014 13:49:44

kosmo
Member

With no changes to focus damages (focus isn t Op or Up, it' s just alot slower for a slight tactic advantage), focus could just scale evry stat point, instead than evry 5.

In this way we could simply add some variety without affecting balance.

Epic

Post #: 6

9/9/2014 17:59:29

Elloisoul
Member

@remorse

sigh.. i did read it to me this all sounds like a rant of some one who cant beat a person with a bot or high focus or has a hard time doing so, im sorry...

Post #: 7

9/9/2014 19:11:18

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

^

I don't think you read even the first paragraph, to be honest.

quote:

Another big problem with focus is that it rewards you for a high investment into balanced stats,

But what if your build is still completely balanced but your investment is lower because for example you have higher HP or energy, or a lower level.
Or perhaps your a lower level and you can't even reach the higher levels of focus, making robots less significant at lower levels.

Why should this be the case? focus should be defined as a reward for having balanced stats, NOT a reward for having HIGH balanced stats.

So what if focus worked as a percentage of balanced stats?

This literally provides the overview of the post. Nowhere in here does it indicate focus's current state of balance.

As for the post itself, I think focus should probably be scrapped entirely and bot damage should scale off of something else.

Epic

Post #: 8

9/10/2014 0:51:41

Remorse
Member

@elloisoul

You clearly didn't read it,

And I will have you know I use focus builds the small time I do play the game.
But I hardly ever play , do you wanna why because variety is so low and boring.

You wanna know what build annoys me the most? STR, focus doesn't even come close, so why would I be trying to change how focus works?

Because I understand the variety issue and I know part of the problem is focus.

If you have the slightest amount of respect you will not comment agian unless you actually bother to read the post.

@ penguin
I agree however it has become apparent that people really like the focus system so I have done my best to create a way for it to work that doesn't massively reduce variety.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 9/10/2014 1:07:56 >

Epic

Post #: 9

9/10/2014 6:03:40

Elloisoul
Member

Please Focus was never a problem to begin with , whats wrong is the bots , when the bots were only Assullt and IA/Gamma, Bunny,Botanic, Poison yeti, yetis and that skill removing bot it was never a problem, ever since they bring defence/resistance debuff bots or armor removing thats when 5 focus ever bloom with high tech , if you really want variety , ask them for more classes ive been here long enough to see that each time theres a balance for class people would just swap to the build thats the flavor , if theres more classes to cause more unbalance then people will try to make new builds for those New classes and for a short while you get your *Variety* until some one figures out a deadly combination of those classes then again , it will be everyone using the same/similar builds ones more

Post #: 10

9/10/2014 6:22:48

Remorse
Member

^ we don't need more classes,

Proof is the most viable variety the game had in terms of builds was in beta/gamma and their were only 3 classes....

What do you know pre focus their was also a lot more viable variety.

I really don't wanna bother trying to explain why to you because I can tell you are a close minded brick wall.

There is a difference between viable variety and the amount of options,
Adding new classes and bots etc adds to options but it doesn't necessarily add to viable variety.

Focus and some abuse builds has massively limited viable variety into 2 main forms and it sucks.
Also the lack of counters is another reason why viable variety is low.

I have made ideas and raised awareness about all these issues, and with this particular thread I am focusing on resolving focus.

You seem to consonantly think I have a problem with focus builds... I don't, I have a problem with what it does for variety.

quote:

for a short while you get your *Variety* until some one figures out a deadly combination of those classes then again , it will be everyone using the same/similar builds ones more

This is the problem I am trying to solve, variety does NOT mean options, I wanna make it so a larger amount of combinations has viability not a select few, this game DOES NOT have to have a select few OP builds, I want to make it so as much vairety as possible can become viable, and changing focus is necessary to do this.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 9/10/2014 6:31:21 >

Epic	Post #: 11

9/10/2014 6:52:43

Elloisoul
Member

Sigh.. I see your set on thinking focus is the problem anyway Good luck with that , let see your suggestion for balance be applied in this game then , if it does let see how it turns out weather it will make the game balance more worse or better... only time will tell anyway on who is right.

Post #: 12

9/10/2014 7:42:02

kosmo
Member

quote:

Nowhere in here does it indicate focus's current state of balance.

As for the post itself, I think focus should probably be scrapped entirely and bot damage should scale off of something else.

You must provide some explanation to your sentences.

@Remorse.
You probably dont understand that abusing stats and damages always been the only way to play, wichever build you re using.
It s the importance of abusing stats for ANY build that restricts variety, not focus.

Epic	Post #: 13

9/10/2014 10:33:49

Remorse
Member

quote:

You probably dont understand that abusing stats and damages always been the only way to play, wichever build you re using.
It s the importance of abusing stats for ANY build that restricts variety, not focus.

I can see how you would think this, as this is pretty much all epic duel has known since delta.

But I can promise you, that is was a lot different in beta.

Part of the problem is damage abusing builds, I agree, but I believe that these are more of a result rather then a cause of bad balance.

There once was a time when viable variety on stats included all different styles,
People didn't always spam and it didn't make them OP either.

take a look at this game-play footage from beta by illuminator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS9Jk76NIRQ&list=UUvgVQQrNuPRHKZRJN-QoBkA

It's obvious from just watching that video alone ht viable variety in beta was SOOO much more then now despite the huge more options we have now, what have they done to make the game like this? I tell you want, focus is part the reason why.

You see people can have balanced builds and they can focus into certain stats as well, and they don't necessarily have to spam them either.

When the introduced focus, what this did is it drew a line, all balanced and semi balanced builds HAD to become focus builds or they were no longer viable.

Then over time they introduced items and other feature threat made attack spamming effective which led to the rising of spam builds to compete with these new strong focus builds, as a result two styles were left, focus and spam.

If we are gonna fix the spam issue WE MUST change focus first, focus is partly the cause to the rising of abuse builds.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 9/10/2014 10:52:22 >

Epic	Post #: 14

9/10/2014 13:02:55

Mother1
Member

Off topic

Your persistence amazes me Remorse Never have I met someone with your kind of drive for change.

On topic

No offense remorse but if focus and spam builds are the problems Why should we remove focus builds first then deal with spam builds later? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why not find away to deal with both builds at the same time instead of trying to get rid of one problem and wait to deal with the other? Cause if we were to deal with one problem the other will still be there and it will still be crippling variety.

Another problem with Variety no matter how you want to dispute it is that it will always take a back seat to winning. If only X and Y builds can get wins do you think that people will use build Z if X and Y can clobber it? Not unless they enjoy losing.

Also as you put it in your own words people were more diverse back in beta because they had more options and there wasn't all that variety destroying items. So even if you removed or changed focus the items that promote the dominating builds are still there within the game.

So if we did this we would have the following problems killing variety

1 The items that discourage variety
2 The other problematic build that now has no rival due to it being wiped out.

Plus as I pointed out several times People have to want to be diverse in order for it to happen. Am I saying people don't want to be diverse? No far from it I spoke to many people in game and watched youtube video where people said they wanted to be diverse. However all of those people have also said X build is what is in, and I don't want to lose so I will use X build because even though I want to be diverse I don't want to lose.

So if you don't remove 100% of what is destroying diversity then were will be no diversity because there will always be something that stands out and since winning > diversity we will always have this problem.

I am not saying this is a bad idea no far from it. I actually think with some tweaking it could increase diversity. However, as I pointed out we need to get rid of 100% of what is destroying diversity otherwise as I pointed out in another thread it will be nothing more than just shuffling what the flavor build or builds are which is what has been happening since beta.

@ Elloisoul

I disagree with we need more classes. In fact to be honest adding the newer classes IMO is what caused another problem which has also crippled diversity and that is all the classes having to be the same. Before when there was only 3 classes none of the classes shared moves and they were all different. Now as soon as these classes come more balance problems came due to them not having their own moves. Last thing we need is more classes which in turn will hurt balance more especially if they are made to share moves.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/10/2014 13:21:34 >

Epic	Post #: 15

9/10/2014 13:49:49

Remorse
Member

@ Mother

Diversity should be the key to winning,

Look at all other great balanced PvPs with higher variety,

What you will find is yes , on occasion their can be a popular style, but because they can be easily countered it turns out going the minority is actually better for winning,

This actually used to be the case is epic duel, lets say STR builds were the popular build, then you decided to make a high support intim build back in beta, this style of build could effectively counter STR, plus you could still battle well with other builds, and your brains actually determined wins,and you ended up winning a high proportion.

This is the level I wish for epic duel.

Not a small choice between viable builds and then lose to the other ones because of either luck or not having anyway to counter other builds...

quote:

No offense remorse but if focus and spam builds are the problems Why should we remove focus builds first then deal with spam builds later? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why not find away to deal with both builds at the same time instead of trying to get rid of one problem and wait to deal with the other? Cause if we were to deal with one problem the other will still be there and it will still be crippling variety.

We could do it at the same time, but it may just have to be a quick number scaling change.
Perhaps after removing focus their will be plenty of other builds that don't spam that can beat them, but maybe they aren't viable now because they can't beat focus builds.

quote:

Also as you put it in your own words people were more diverse back in beta because they had more options and there wasn't all that variety destroying items. So even if you removed or changed focus the items that promote the dominating builds are still there within the game.

We don't necessarily have to remove these items, we just need them to be made EASILY counter-able, and I mean counters should be able to completely cripple a particular move, so then it comes down to timing and smart, the person using the move that can be countered easily need to focus on timing of the skill so it has less likely to be countered etc.

Counters need to be extremely strong and effective, keep in mind that this WILL NOT ruin builds, or make certain builds "OP" what it does is it forced things to be about smarts and allows other variety to compensate to their weaknesses to a small degree.

quote:

Plus as I pointed out several times People have to want to be diverse in order for it to happen. Am I saying people don't want to be diverse? No far from it I spoke to many people in game and watched you-tube video where people said they wanted to be diverse. However all of those people have also said X build is what is in, and I don't want to lose so I will use X build because even though I want to be diverse I don't want to lose.

This here is a perfect example of you explaining the current broken viable variety problem, this is the exact thing I aim to resolve, IT IS 100% possible for it to not be like this, I know this for a fact because it never used to be like this. You could choose how to build and it often was the case that self made builds performed better because as I mentioned before the minority that counters the majority should perform better.

Take a look at some old beta videos, what you will find is not one or two strategies people use, their is a huge variety and all have high chances of winning, this is what the game should be like.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 9/10/2014 13:51:13 >

Epic	Post #: 16

9/10/2014 14:50:47

kosmo
Member

quote:

But I can promise you, that is was a lot different in beta.

I can make a support build with rank 40 and win 80%, that doesnt mean the build is any good.In same way balanced builds never been able to compete, expecially in beta when we had the most broken balance, no 5 focus and loads of p2w.

quote:

quote:

Plus as I pointed out several times People have to want to be diverse in order for it to happen. Am I saying people don't want to be diverse? No far from it I spoke to many people in game and watched you-tube video where people said they wanted to be diverse. However all of those people have also said X build is what is in, and I don't want to lose so I will use X build because even though I want to be diverse I don't want to lose.

This here is a perfect example of you explaining the current broken viable variety problem, this is the exact thing I aim to resolve, IT IS 100% possible for it to not be like this, I know this for a fact because it never used to be like this. You could choose how to build and it often was the case that self made builds performed better because as I mentioned before the minority that counters the majority should perform better.

This is the worst and most common thought that ED players have, it is in facts what' s killing fun in battle.
People doesnt seem to understand that ALL builds have a counter-build, and using the counter-build to the overused build will ALWAYS win more.
I never played the thrend builds because it would end up in a win % loss, I wish other players could realize this, but all people does is swiching to the same cheap builds.

< Message edited by kosmo -- 9/10/2014 14:58:25 >

Epic	Post #: 17

9/10/2014 14:59:06

Mother1
Member

Putting diversity issues aside I will explain a possible issue I see with this idea.

If you look around right now most builds don't invest in energy. From what I am reading of your original post you mentioned if we invested in all stats equally while putting 30 stats into health than we get 100% focus where as if you leave out a stat you get no bonus.

As I pointed out most people don't invest in energy due to

1) having high base energy
2) The massive mess the Passive to Active change made due to it breaking energy.

A change like this with energy so messed up would destroy focus not change it. If I am wrong on this then disregard my thoughts, however if at what I am saying is the case than unless this idea was tweaked to were energy investment doesn't hurt the bonus, or they solve the energy problem this would be the same as Destroying focus.

Epic	Post #: 18

9/10/2014 15:16:37

Remorse
Member

Both HP and energy are excluded from the focus percentage,

And deviating from 100% balanced stats (excluding HP and EP) does NOT result in no bonus if it was only one stat you would have around 98-99% focus and therefore still receive 98-99% of the bonus robot damage.

The whole point of my idea is to remove the set lines focus demands and instead works as a percentage of how balanced your stats are.

Tiny deveations from balanced stats would only have miniscule effects on robot damage and thus you dont need to have 100% focus for good robot damage.
And therefore hopefully open up viable varaity to semi balanced builds.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 9/10/2014 15:21:29 >

Epic	Post #: 19

9/10/2014 18:52:58

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

quote:

You must provide some explanation to your sentences.

I'm not gonna go through the whole post, line-by-line, explaining how each statement does not relate to focus's current state of balance. I'll just say that clearly, the OP is focusing pretty much entirely on how focus should be changed to improve build variety or the current meta. To be honest, this should really be in the suggestions section of the forums, not the balance, but whatever.

It's more like you should explain HOW any significant part of the post pertains to focus's current state of balance. If you can find something and provide even a brief but logical explanation then I'll acknowledge I was entirely wrong.

As for focus, I still think that not much needs to be done with it (if there is, like %-based changes, it would be very interesting) except for just not making focus's only purpose to maximize diminishing returns and boost bot damage. Bot damage should increase with only a stat/combination of stats and level.

Epic	Post #: 20

9/14/2014 17:08:10

Narius
Member

Everyone has very viable and useful input. I personally support this idea, it seems like a nice change of pace making the Dex spamming ect builds suddenly less viable, but the major problem is health spamming builds are suddenly more powerful, and no-one wants to sit in a battle for a hundred years. So similar to what Mother said, the concept is great, the implementation is decent but can stand to be tweaked a little.

Post #: 21

9/17/2014 20:09:22

oPeaceKeeper
Member

This game currently has many many small problems that are all intertwined extremely hard, one of the major ones that Mother1 brought up is the shared skills between six classes. This is not an all inclusive fix but the one I think needs to be fixed first. The synergy between all the classes prevents balance and diversity from being possible, since you can no longer buff or nerf a skill in one class without affecting another that shares that skill. Until each class has their own skillset and purpose then diversity won't be possible. Right now every class can heal, steal energy, deal burst damage, buff defense and resistance, and debuff the enemy. I think this game would be a lot more interesting if say each class had something unique about them and belonged in a single category.

Tech mages seem like the kind of class that should deal with energy steals/sharing so they should specialize in giving their allies energy while stealing the opponents, so rebuild the class to have skills that fit in that category. Mercenaries seem like a class to specialize in buffing defense and resistance; rebuild the class to fit in that category. Bounty Hunters are debuffers, Tactical Mercenaries are damage over time, Blood Mages are heal over time, and Cyber Hunters could be burst damage.

Basically, I think that the problem this game is one that I have seen in a few other games as well, classes that do too much. When you have classes that do too much you cannot balance them with each other because they all serve the same purpose anyway and are actually the same class with very minor differences. It would be so much easier to nerf tech mages if their only purpose was energy management, if they manage energy too well like they do right now, then cut back on that energy management like say nerf battery backup. Right now you can't without affecting Tactical Mercenaries. Currently, you can't even nerf Tech Mage energy management, because it is the same as a buff to every other class that has an energy steal, which is every other class.

The solution to this problem in any other game has been to cut back on the utility of each class to prevent things like super tanks (super high damage while being unkillable). Getting this major problem out of the way opens the doors to fixing the smaller issues like focus.

This would be a huge rework of the game but I think it would make it so much easier to make any balance changes in the future.

tl;dr I believe classes have too much utility currently. I think they need to specialize in their respective areas of skill and not be able to do everything at once so it is easier to balance.

Post #: 22

9/18/2014 13:43:52

Remorse
Member

^ I agree,
And I have made many suggestions to possibly resolve the issues above.

Such as: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21805953
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21784831&mpage=1&key=�

However like you said their are multiple problems,
And one of them I believe is focus.

That is why I made this thread.

I think they they should be aiming at solving all the issues eventually and that is why I like to bring up ideas to resolve these issues.

Epic	Post #: 23

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