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Why focus needs to be removed

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12/15/2014 16:47:02   
edwardvulture
Member

1. no weaknesses (at all..)
2. free damage (robots)
3. everyone uses it in high levels
4. kills off viability of other builds
5. has been one of the dominant builds since beta (assault bot days)
6. discourages investment in energy (along with many other things)
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 1
12/15/2014 17:19:17   
Mother1
Member

Number one is incorrect.

Focus builds do have weaknesses. I should know since I have one. The problem I believe you are mentioning is not focus itself but the fact that you can spam stats along with focus and still get the perks of focus.

However if they were to make it so a focus + stat spam builds didn't get that perk then it would take out several of the numbers on your list.

Here is an example

50 strength
51 Dex
54 Tech
50 Support

Now with this the stats are close to even so which is what Focus was originally suppose to be encourging which is balanced builds. However you don't see this too often

45 Strength
70 Dex
88 Tech
45 Support

Now here as you can see Dex and Tech are spammed hare which is what the majority of focus spam builds look like. The stats are not balanced yet because they all reached the min of 45 they still get the bonus damage which is number 2 on your list.

I remember remorse making a thread suggesting they change focus into a percent which would make it so all of those focus spam builds (which are the most common at high levels) Wouldn't get the benefit of the robot damage. If that was put into play number 2 as well as possibly 3 and possible some of 4 would be removed right from your list.

Number 1 5 and 6 however aren't correct.

Please explain how focus builds discourage the investment of energy? What has really encouraged this is not focus builds but the fact that energy is still under heavy pressure thanks to the Passive to active change as well as the cost cores have. Then let's add how as a band aid fix the staff gave Bounty hunter, and Blood mage ways to drain and gain energy especially with Blood mages's Energy parasite. Focus builds have never caused energy discouragement because way before passives to actives I was many high energy builds, and I even used one when I was playing as a Merc 93 energy (930 with the x10) and I had little to no problem using this build.

Number 5 is also false. I don't know about beta and Gamma but I remember delta and focus builds were not always dominating. During the infernal war Strength Blood mage was destroying everything and none of them used focus. Before that it was strength TLM with smoke and Tank Cyber hunters dominating and none of them used focus either. It wasn't until later on that Focus BM got strong until the end of Delta when Strength BM got a good nerf.

Then through omega the builds shifted from, Strength builds, to Support, to Focus, Etc. So while Focus was being using it was never dominating the entire time.

Epic  Post #: 2
12/15/2014 17:23:12   
Satafou
Member

The assault bot wasn't even released in beta lol...
Post #: 3
12/15/2014 17:31:23   
The Jop
Member

High dexterity or technology builds are their weaknesses. Depending on the bot, having your attack deflected or blocked means you had about 180 stat points amount to very little (of course this is more true for blocks still). There needs to be something you can fall back on besides attacks that require energy, especially since most players' priorities today are to drain their opponents' energies. If focus is removed, people would flock to strength because players need something they can use at no cost, when an entire energy pool can be drained in 1 or 2 moves.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 12/16/2014 5:14:13 >

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
12/15/2014 18:27:30   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Focus builds are heavily dependent on not getting pressured and forced onto the defensive the whole game. There are a few unique focus builds that defy this rule, but in general once a focus build is stuck on the defensive it is VERY hard for them to reverse the momentum of the fight in a turn or two.

What focus builds are good at:
-Being versatile and having a high enough skillcap for outplaying worse opponents
-Optimized stats

What focus builds are bad at:
-Being better than a specialized build in certain areas: There's no way you can out-sustain some tankier heal-loop builds, and you can rarely outdamage strength-based builds that rely on dealing consistent damage to constantly pressure their opponents.
-Heavily dependent on a certain small pool of skills
-Dependent on cooldowns, most noticeably on their robots since it's a primary source of a focus build's damage. This makes bad players very easy to predict. Good players are a bit harder to predict when using focus builds, but it still is easy to corner them into situations they don't like by denying their use of their robot whenever it's up.
Epic  Post #: 5
12/15/2014 20:11:38   
edwardvulture
Member

I know that gamma bot was introduced in gamma as a promo item but I know there was a robot before gamma bot. I was one of the few lucky players to get assault bot in the old arcade as a non-varium. I think robots were introduced before enhancements and I know for sure enhancements was released at gamma. But anyways my point was that focus builds have been relevant since its inception which is higher than the lifespan of heal loop mages, dex bhs, and any other "OP" build.

and also when I say it has no weaknesses I mean you can build anyway on top of 5 focus to adapt to anything that could cause a threat. Any weaknesses you mentioned could be countered by a focus build that are different in class l and skill\stat distribution. It is too versatile for too little sacrifice.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 6
12/15/2014 20:47:19   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 It cannot be built to deal with every build at the same time. You build it to be better at fighting some, while not as good against others, and this varies, but in no case can you simultaneously build to counter the majority at once.
Epic  Post #: 7
12/15/2014 21:20:43   
Rayman
Banned
quote:

The assault bot wasn't even released in beta lol...


The Assault Bot was indeed introduced in beta, It was the 1st bot, then when Gamma Came out they released the Gamma Bot as a Promo.
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
12/16/2014 7:47:22   
Remorse
Member

Supported.


I remember the first day when robots were made with focus builds and it was the day build variety went out the door and was replaced with small amounts of popular builds.


This combined with removal of passives has made the game terribly repetitive and boring with a lack of creativity.
Epic  Post #: 9
12/16/2014 8:18:36   
The Jop
Member

Removing focus would just increase the popularity of strength like I said, which is abused enough in the current game. Plus robots would be fairly useless aside from their small side effects (excluding ones that rely on damage like Botanical Borg, Infernal Android, etc.) I guarantee that getting rid of a major build will only reduce build variety, because then people would have less to choose from.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 12/16/2014 8:19:31 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
12/16/2014 11:08:15   
Mother1
Member

@ remorse

Personally I think your focus as a percent Idea would be a better solution because let's face it the majority (I say 98%) is just doing like the example I posted in my first post. in other words making sure they have 45's in 2 or 3 slots then spamming one stat past it which is basically Focus + Spam but not focus itself. If it was done the way you suggested other builds would be used seeing as that robot power wouldn't be given those those builds.

Your old focus thread.
Epic  Post #: 11
12/16/2014 14:29:20   
edwardvulture
Member

@the jop How do tank builds beat focus builds? Focus builds still have a sustained damage output and they get rage faster. And if you say tank builds, you also have to include those that are not in the TM class that cannot heal loop. I don't see them beating any focus builds anytime soon
And also, aren't tank caster builds THE counter to strength builds? You spam all your points on strength, I deflect/block all of them.
I haven't seen a good tank caster build for a while mostly because removal of passives like remorse said.

and also... have you noticed that passives are replaced with passive cores. One of them (was) free and one of them is not...
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 12
12/17/2014 2:22:47   
RageSoul
Member

Why not make Focus be having a minimum base stats to get bonus damage for Robots and instead forces you to have all of your base stats be equal ? The bonus can be % increase depending on the amount of stats invested . So in case you want more damage for my Robot , i have to worry about my other stats as well .

quote:

I haven't seen a good tank caster build for a while mostly because removal of passives like remorse said.


Two words : Energy Parasite .

< Message edited by RageSoul -- 12/17/2014 2:33:09 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
12/17/2014 9:29:00   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 without a bot focus has no chance. theyre easily countered with extremely high str, high hp, or poison
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 14
12/17/2014 14:50:28   
edwardvulture
Member

@ragesoul haven't seen that build and energy parasite needs a revamp, it completely discourages investment in energy. and also the point of removing focus is to open up the doors to creative builds, having base stats becoming equal would get further away from my (and a few other's) goal.

There are times when a balanced build with the right tactic and investment in skills can counter extreme builds. But it requires strategic thinking...

Focus, or originally bonus was a bad attempt to stop stat spam builds. I have proposed this before: if robots scale on tech and sup, it would be the antithesis to the stre/dex build and their free(0 energy) damage would be balanced out between consistent (str) and burst(sup).
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 15
12/17/2014 14:54:53   
I Underlord I
Member

quote:

edwardvulture wrote:

no weaknesses (at all..)

This is simply not true in the slightest.

As a notable concern for those who utilize Focus builds: they almost always rely on Robots for damage, particularly if the player is using a class with no viable or reliable damage output moves (such as Bounty Hunter). If the robot is blocked or deflected on a given turn, it can easily turn the tide for the user, particularly if it was used with Rage.
The prominent weaknesses of Focus builds are stat-abuse builds and fully offensive builds (for which the former descriptor might also be applicable).

quote:

free damage (robots)

The damage is not "free." Robots themselves cost Credits or Varium, and greater damage depends on spreading one's stats such that they become the (if I may) Jack of All Trades but Master of None. Robot damage is also derived from Technology, but that is a different concern with multiple and variable arguments.

quote:

everyone uses it in high levels

Even if this were the case, and it assuredly is not, that hardly suggests it needs to be removed. It only suggests that Robots tend to be more important to the point of of being integral at higher levels, which is logically and economically the case. In addition, "high levels" are the only levels where maximum Focus can be achieved without huge sacrifices to other aspects of one's statistics, vitals, and fighting style.

quote:

kills off viability of other builds

This is fundamentally incorrect; Focus being viable does not in any way make other builds partially or fully less so. Strength-abuse builds are still reigning despite the recent updates, for instance.

quote:

has been one of the dominant builds since beta (assault bot days)

It is an entire system and therefore manner of adaptability that depends on balancing one's stats to an extent; if something similar had been or were to be introduced, it too would (have) received(d) significant attention and dominate(d). "Domination" does not make something overpowered or excessively feasible; it merely implies that what is being utilized excessively is (likely) viable.

quote:

discourages investment in energy (along with many other things)

In the current meta, nothing encourages Energy investment, particularly with the relatively high amount of starting EP and with how Energy flow works at this time. In fact, Focus is one of the least of the offenders: the greatest culprit is Strength, and more specifically Strike.
Scapegoating Focus will not solve this issue, especially as the claim seems to emerge due to your apparent bias against it.

_____________________________

"Memories and thoughts age, just as people do. But certain thoughts can never age, and certain memories can never fade."
~ Haruki Murakami, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle
AQ  Post #: 16
12/17/2014 18:06:13   
beaststyles
Member
 

 I am sorry to say this edwardvulture but all your points 1-5 are so vague and can be said for a lot of types of builds e.g. str.

Furthermore don't forget that focus build received a nerf in the last update (armor passive core) - one of their many weaknesses.

< Message edited by beaststyles -- 12/17/2014 18:07:08 >
Post #: 17
12/17/2014 19:33:59   
Daph Duck
Member

Focus definitely needs to be removed or at least severely weekend because it is way too overpowered. Has both good defenses and good damages. It is especially overpowered with the Assault Bot! The special is already overpowerd on every build type but with a focus build the attack will also do way too much damage.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
12/17/2014 21:52:59   
edwardvulture
Member

For those of you that wonder why I'm so against focus, it is because there are really 2 epicduels I know. One where focus is dominant (right now) and one where focus is an option that there are clear counters to. A clear counter as I define it is a build that would be able to beat focus builds 70% of the time. I was able to achieve this in early omega and other phases. I'm complaining about focus buidls because they do not have a clear counter right now and I will continue to hold this view until someone posts a video of them using a counter-focus build to consistently beat the focus builds.

Why does this one specific type of build get to be this dominant when every other subsequent "op" builds that were far less popular become completely unviable while the focus 5 build gets to be on top for this long?

And yes... it took me 40 seconds to write the first post but it was just something to start a discussion which are what the forums are for.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 19
12/17/2014 22:58:33   
I Underlord I
Member

Focus forces balance; why should it have a "clear counter" that renders it almost pointless? Such a counter is bound to be a build that abuses one or more stat, which should be discouraged rather than encouraged. Any viable build can counter a Focus build in that there should be an approximately equal battle between players of the same level and skill range.

Focus has no major strengths or major weaknesses, and it does not lack weaknesses as a whole; saying otherwise is stretching the truth to the point of warping it, if not outright lying.

Though Focus itself needs a change, the concept promotes more equal distribution of stats and is, in essence, balanced.
AQ  Post #: 20
12/18/2014 8:24:20   
Bagofbricks
Member

@Daph: that is just entirely untrue. Focus does not excel in offense and defense. Focus is average in both. The whole point of focus is to be average in all the skills but not excel in any stat such as a high str build or dex mage.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 21
12/18/2014 11:08:37   
Remorse
Member

quote:

Focus forces balance; why should it have a "clear counter" that renders it almost pointless? Such a counter is bound to be a build that abuses one or more stat, which should be discouraged rather than encouraged. Any viable build can counter a Focus build in that there should be an approximately equal battle between players of the same level and skill range.

Focus has no major strengths or major weaknesses, and it does not lack weaknesses as a whole; saying otherwise is stretching the truth to the point of warping it, if not outright lying.

Though Focus itself needs a change, the concept promotes more equal distribution of stats and is, in essence, balanced.



This used to be true.

Investing into balanced stats once meant having less dis-advantages but as a result also less advantages.

Then came along the robot damage advantage.

Now to claim that focus is "balanced" when it gets a free bonus in terms of robot damage over any other build automatically puts them ahead in terms of pure value.


The only reason why stat spam builds can compete is because they are already outrageously broken to begin with.


Thus the problem is focus is broken due to the exclusive advanatge over other builds, and stat spammers are already broken.


Fix stat abuser builds and remove focus robot advanatge and we might actually have some creativity. A long shot I realize, heck while stating the impossible I might as well add they also need to reintroduce passives to make the game fun.







In terms of realistic options they could always make focus scale as a percentage or "balanced" stats. As how I have stated before, and how Mother1 was kind enough to remind me of :) http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21809097







< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/18/2014 11:11:14 >
Epic  Post #: 22
12/25/2014 2:37:33   
edwardvulture
Member

I don't agree completely when you say stat spam builds can compete because spamming support, tech or dex opens up a lot of weaknesses with the exception of dex spam tm and some others. But 5 bonus does not have any sacrifice compared to a build where one has to spam stats.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 23
12/25/2014 8:41:37   
Mother1
Member

@ Edwardvulture

Remorse hit the nail on the head with focus. The problem with it is that it you can still get the power of focus when with stat spam. Please be honest with me. How many focus builds have you seen that look something like this

50 Strength
51 Dex
52 Tech
54 Support

Meaning where all the base stats are actually close to one another? Now answer me this how often do you see something like this

45 Strength
50 Dex
75 tech
45 support

Where you have 1 or 2 stats spammed higher then the rest? If you see the later more than the first then that is the real problem. Cause Focus was originally supposed to be to promote balanced builds however the way it is now it gives a bonus for having all stats at 45 or higher instead of them being close to one another. The moment they change it so you can't combine it with spam and get the robot damage will be the moment you see a change in focus builds.

Cause as many have said before if you flat out remove focus what will people play as? Answer the next dominating builds which are guess what? Spam builds.
Epic  Post #: 24
12/25/2014 8:58:48   
Lord Machaar
Member

If focus gets removed, 5 focus builds will die, bots will go extinct. Strenght and stat abusing builds will shine.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 12/25/2014 9:02:11 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 25
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