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Why cant balance be "Fixed" in your Opinion

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7/6/2015 21:00:21   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 One of the longest on-going struggles this game has ever endured is the struggle to "Fix balance". Everywhere I look I keep seeing "fix balance".

So, I ask you guys. what needs to be done to fix balance?

In my opinion, balance cant be fixed because the very idea and definition of the word "balance" has been misinterpreted by our devs and testers. Balance isn't equality, it's fairness. Good/Evil, Right/Wrong, Win/Lose. In each one of those comparisons I have previously mentioned there is a line to separate them because theyare different. They are not equal, and that's balance. It is only when one tries to eradicate that line that things start to look "imbalanced" or "Not fair". You see balance is not equality, it can most closely be associated with fairness. Equality is saying that everyone will have an equal chance to win in this game. Fairness is saying that the better player will win. The player that plays more will have a level advantage. The player that pays will get an advantage. Fairness is balance, yet devs want equality, so that is my theory as to why Balance isn't fixed or cant be fixed.

Instead of having the game so that (these are just example) tms have an advantage over blood mages, or mercenaries are weaker against hunters, or players that have ranks/higher levels hve an advantage over everyone else, devs are trying to make everything equal. Bots, equal. Weapons, equal. Players (due to underdog), equal.

Im not offering a solution here, its too soon for that because I don't believe you guys are ready to hear my solution yet. Im just hlping you guys identify the problem because identifying the problem is an important step in fixing it
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 1
7/10/2015 11:41:09   
nowras
Member

Well that's absolutly right

the real balance must be like this


Bh must be stronger than ch

ch must be stronger than TM

TM must be stronger than BH


and so on
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
7/10/2015 11:43:54   
Mother1
Member

@ Nowras

you mean like a ranger, hunter bear balance?
Epic  Post #: 3
7/10/2015 15:15:56   
8x
Member

People don't like to lose. When they do, the balance is blamed.
Epic  Post #: 4
7/10/2015 18:01:01   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ Yup, especially when losses were still apparent, everytime you lose, gotta be the balance, can't deny, I was one of those, but since losses don't matter anymore, everytime I lose, I really want to face that player again and try another strategy, if all of my strategies are exposed/can be encountered by this build and many others, then it is time to change build/class. But when I know the problem is related to something broken, e.g ranking system, well it is time to talk.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/10/2015 18:21:40 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 5
7/11/2015 14:31:58   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 The whole idea of balance is very subjective because there just aren't enough players online to gather enough data to make an accurate claim that something is overpowered/underpowered unless it is just completely stomping everyone unanimously like when IA first came out.

I could honestly care less for balance in that regard and would only really voice an opposition to something if it's as broken as IA's release. Really to fix the silly meta where we are in that focuses entirely on energy and therefore normalizes a ton of classes taking away any unique attributes from them. Really this happened because passives were removed and therefore the only way to use attacks or moves that are better than basic actions (strike, aux, gun, etc...) is to expend energy which therefore lead to every class getting some form of control over the energy flow. The only problem with this is it just made all fights way more bland and all classes feeling a lot more similar. This isn't really balance in my opinion but the reason why ED cannot get out of this hole that it is in is because the devs outright refuse to bring passives back so we will forever be stuck in a meta that is entirely reliant on energy.

There are 2 obvious ways to fix this. Either bring back passives or make any skills which cost energy do barely anything more than basic actions, then remove some of the skills that are designed only to generate or drain energy. There are a lot of ways to do these 2 things so I will leave that up whatever people think of. But the main reason why there's a "lack" of build variety and most fights are just ridiculously repetitive and boring is ultimately because passives no longer exist yet energy-costing skills and cores maintain their position as huge game-changing moves. There's no tradeoff like there once was where if you invested more in your passives you would lose out on some benefits of having higher-level skills. And unless something is done about this ED will very, very likely never come back out of the grave it's digging for itself.
Epic  Post #: 6
7/11/2015 15:21:48   
8x
Member

quote:

^ Yup, especially when losses were still apparent, everytime you lose, gotta be the balance, can't deny, I was one of those, but since losses don't matter anymore, everytime I lose, I really want to face that player again and try another strategy, if all of my strategies are exposed/can be encountered by this build and many others, then it is time to change build/class. But when I know the problem is related to something broken, e.g ranking system, well it is time to talk.

IMO, as long as I can see my losses they still matter.
Epic  Post #: 7
7/11/2015 19:23:01   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Okay so I guess one of the main problems is the fact that losses "don't matter anymore". I agree with that because one of the main things that made ED unique/special was that you could see your opponents wins and judge him (not bully him) based on his ratio. When players knew that they would be judged they tended to play smarter to avoid being judged. Now that theyre not being judged.... theres no reason to play it safe. Using suicide builds, quick kill builds, or even botting is now socially acceptable
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 8
7/11/2015 19:34:18   
shadow.bane
Member

hiding or showing the loses @machaar is the same , u still can see ur loses and to some people it frustrate them . like me as an example ! i care about not losing cause i don't want to see my ratio go badly even that people can't see what it is , i do it to satisfy myself not other users .
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
7/11/2015 22:31:16   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ Welp, if you see your own losses, you won't bully yourself, unless you do, and that would be called schizophrenia lol.
MQ Epic  Post #: 10
7/12/2015 2:47:55   
8x
Member

I'd love to have a checkbox in the options to show my losses.
Epic  Post #: 11
7/12/2015 3:54:54   
a non varium player
Member
 

 balance should be like this
class x should be stronger than n classes and weaker than n classes
this strong and weakness is not a definitive win or loss defining characteristic but a general advantage and disadvantage (like frst turn, energy control, right buffs and debuffs etc),
much like rock paper scissor lizard spock.
all classes will be equally used and cancel each other out
Post #: 12
7/12/2015 5:08:00   
8x
Member

^It was like that in beta. As a Merc I could easily kill most BHs, BHs could kill mages with little effort and mages would have easy time killing Mercs. People still weren't happy about balance.
Epic  Post #: 13
7/12/2015 10:43:49   
Mother1
Member

@ 8x

So balance was basically ranger hunter bear back in beta?
Epic  Post #: 14
7/12/2015 12:18:48   
8x
Member

^Sure, more or less. Of course, if you knew how to use your skills properly you could have at least 80% 1vs1 win rate (90% with good gear, 95% with best gear, 70-75% as a non varium).

The main difference between battles now and back then is that we had a lot less of available attacks. For example, If I'd use Intimidate on a strength BH, all they would have left is the gun and a weak aux. But, the robots and all new sorts of attacks changed everything and made it a lot harder to come up with a strategy to counter different kinds of builds. Out of the three debuff skills, intimidate was probably unintentionally nerfed the hardest (the other two at least lower the defenses). In delta and omega, it just seems like the game became mostly about dishing out as much damage as possible as fast as you can, strategic skills are a lot less used.

< Message edited by 8x -- 7/12/2015 12:20:31 >
Epic  Post #: 15
7/12/2015 14:05:38   
Lord Machaar
Member

ED beta was rock / paper / scissor when:
var player faced a var player and a non-var player faced a non-var player, when a var player faced a non-var player, the result was clear and known no matter what, whether the classes that are in use, luck factors, who started first, basically anything.. heck I even remember the international uniform of a non-var player http://puu.sh/iWAEE/b4fbec0397.jpg, if you find a non-var player with different gear (independence gear..) it is whether an old smart player who farmed a lot of NPCs (15 NPCs per hour), well I didn't know what farming was and I was enjoying PVP even though I had 60% win ratio, I played as a non-var for some time and it was clear to me that this game was pay-to-win to the core, and here is a glance: http://puu.sh/iWAVn/50d24c3d17.jpg , the leaderboard shows the difference between a var and non-var player, you can say if X player is a var or non-var based on his/her win ratio. When I first bought varium, the devs make you feel that you are invincible, and in that moment I started feeling that buying varium means you must be better than a non-var player, in basically everything, that's the reason many pay-to-win players have quitted the game after the launch of omega, they just couldn't face the fact that non-var players will have a chance through the removal of enhancements..

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/12/2015 14:12:06 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 16
7/12/2015 16:32:12   
8x
Member

quote:

ED beta was rock / paper / scissor when:
var player faced a var player and a non-var player faced a non-var player, when a var player faced a non-var player, the result was clear and known no matter what, whether the classes that are in use, luck factors, who started first, basically anything.. heck I even remember the international uniform of a non-var player http://puu.sh/iWAEE/b4fbec0397.jpg, if you find a non-var player with different gear (independence gear..) it is whether an old smart player who farmed a lot of NPCs (15 NPCs per hour), well I didn't know what farming was and I was enjoying PVP even though I had 60% win ratio, I played as a non-var for some time and it was clear to me that this game was pay-to-win to the core, and here is a glance: http://puu.sh/iWAVn/50d24c3d17.jpg , the leaderboard shows the difference between a var and non-var player, you can say if X player is a var or non-var based on his/her win ratio. When I first bought varium, the devs make you feel that you are invincible, and in that moment I started feeling that buying varium means you must be better than a non-var player, in basically everything, that's the reason many pay-to-win players have quitted the game after the launch of omega, they just couldn't face the fact that non-var players will have a chance through the removal of enhancements..

That armor was released in Gamma (aux and gun probably too, but I just don't feel like doublechecking it). Here is a real beta non-varium uniform (and you have an average varium uniform next to it): http://i.imgur.com/xrjUrDT.png

Edit: (And yeah, I know that is a varium hairstyle, but it was bought with the varium that we got for free)

< Message edited by 8x -- 7/12/2015 16:47:26 >
Epic  Post #: 17
7/12/2015 17:56:37   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ Yeah it was something like that, I couldn't find any screenshots of my level 30 TM, as for TMs, they had the famous Caden's wrath http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Caden%27s_Wrath, I remember it gave +28 technology, as for BHs, I can't really remember...

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/12/2015 17:59:48 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 18
7/12/2015 19:16:28   
8x
Member

^I loved those mages, my artillery burned through them like butter. If only they had known that Dark Heart was the staff to have. And it even had no strength requirement...
http://epicduelwiki.com/index.php?title=Dark_Heart&oldid=50778
http://epicduelwiki.com/index.php?title=Caden%27s_Wrath&oldid=50783

And here is one of the better stat giving weapons for BHs. Great for 2vs2.
http://epicduelwiki.com/index.php?title=Acolyte_Blades&oldid=51325

(Copy and paste links into the address bar if you want to see the original stats, just clicking on the links might show you the current pages)

< Message edited by 8x -- 7/12/2015 19:18:45 >
Epic  Post #: 19
7/13/2015 16:01:08   
Oswald Cobblepot
Member

Different opinions & Game System ← This is why.

< Message edited by Oswald Cobblepot -- 7/13/2015 16:02:37 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 20
7/14/2015 21:14:33   
Variation
Member
 

 I'm gonna have to strongly argue in favor of what 8x proposed,
quote:

People don't like to lose. When they do, the balance is blamed.


Not everyone falls into that category, but most players do. It's the very fact most players simply attack balance versus their strategies when they lose matches. No one is perfect and even the best of the absolute best will sometimes lose do to bad strategic planning on our behalf. A very common thing a lot of players do is complain about plausible balance concerns because of how it looks on paper and in strategy based games someone else could've been the better strategist making that paper wasted. The problem now is that the proposers of said plausible balance concerns hardly want to hear any logical refutations. Now with any generic plausible balance concern you have the common bandwagoners that may have a warrant for concern (remember plausible balance concerns), but contribute the same old recycled complaints that have led to a numerous amount of unnecessary nerfs/buffs. Now we come to the case where strong arguments from opposition are hardly seriously noticed (in the past it was strongly that way). Though I can argue that in the most recent balance changes nothing has served as an impulsive compensation like balance changes often used to. Underdog Mode itself is an amazing addition for lower levels who often face huge raw stat disparities.

< Message edited by Variation -- 7/14/2015 21:20:32 >
Post #: 21
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