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RE: =ED= July 10, 2015 - Theon Showcase Preview

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7/12/2015 16:02:37   
shadow.bane
Member

^ what u mean is that people that don't play the game are the ones who balance it ! 100 % right
AQW Epic  Post #: 26
7/12/2015 19:12:17   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 @Lord Machaar Don't shoot the messenger. I was told to correct a false statement that stated on the forums, Ranloth being a member of the balance team, and I did just that
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 27
7/12/2015 21:53:48   
Lord Machaar
Member

I'm not pointing at you at all, my words are directed for those who told you that balancers don't equal testers, lol it is like we have 20 testers, in fact we have 2 who are Whitetiger and Mecha Mario, I don't really know if by testers they mean Mecha Mario and Whitetiger, and by balancers they mean tigerwhite and Mario Mecha. If we had 10 testers I would totally believe that half of them are balancers. Based on the following statement:
Testers do not equal balancers. We have 1 tester and 1 balancer, the tester might be mecha mario or whitetiger, the balancer might whitetiger or mecha mario, rabblefroth is building biobeasts.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/12/2015 21:54:29 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 28
7/12/2015 22:26:00   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 Balancers are those who have access to the balance tool and Testers don't.

Don't ask who has what because at this moment I have no idea
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 29
7/13/2015 13:41:51   
Lord Machaar
Member

Balance tool if I can remember is the balance tracker which allows you to see which skills are the less used? Nothing fancy here.
MQ Epic  Post #: 30
7/13/2015 14:23:34   
  Charfade
Member

Balance tool and balance tracker are different.

Balance tool is a feature given to balancers of ED. This tool allows them to adjust variables on weapons, skills, cores and character stats. Unfortunately I'm not able to give more information on this tool because of NDA and security reasons. I will mention that the balance tool was left in an unfinished state ( ran out of time to complete due to other company obligations ) and is extremely difficult to learn how to use. Because if you mess up a variable in the tool it can have mass wide negative effects on the game. Which is sometimes goes unnoticed during testing process.

Balance tracker is a data report feature. Before the balance tracker we went by our gut feeling and reports of the players have made in the bugs doc to identify issues in the game. This made it difficult because reports were usually associated with some sort of bias or alternative motive for the suggestion. With the tracker in place we removed any bias from decision making process. We can now find out exactly what is happening in the game and how much a class wins vs another and compare. This can be extended to weapon types or even legion and exile matches. I should mention that we still take bug reports and issues presented to us on twitter or here in the forum. It gives us a direction to investigate further. The more information provided in the report the faster we can track down and solve issues.

Testers "test" the functionality of EpicDuel. Their roles involve a lot of problem solving and trying out different avenues to try and break EpicDuel's features. Testers are different then balancers in that they will play a mission or fight battles over and over again until they break the game. While balancers will attempt to bring stability to the game, they offer solutions when a problem is found. When a solution is found, the testers then go back at it and try and break it again. This process is repeated until a completed build is green lit. They sound a lot alike, and both roles are critical for a PVP game.

< Message edited by Charfade -- 7/13/2015 14:39:49 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 31
7/13/2015 18:12:05   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ Thanks for the clarification charfade, I did know that testers have multiple functions, testing the updates before going live (including features, missions, etc..) and this is the problem, as Xendran has mentioned before, testers do multiple things leaving them no time for real balance, which is PVP balancing (battle modes, builds, classes, skills, weapons, cores...), we do not have a dedicated number of testers/balancers who are specialized in balancing PVP. Sure testing the updates before going live is a critical thing, but balancing PVP battle modes is a much more complicated process, I mean it has been 2 months since last balance patchnote, it has been months since juggernaut's malfunction. We have Whitetiger and Mecha Mario, I don't know who is the balancer here and who is the tester, or both of them do the same thing at the same time, but there is something I know, you need more testers, which will cost you nothing. In the end, the game's main feature is PVP, everything is based on it, and if testing the missions that will go live in the update is more important, well most missions are based off PVP battles, which is something broken. Also the updates will make the players busy for what? 20 minutes? 1 hour? 2 hours? Then what? Everyone will come back to play 1vs1, 2vs2 and the broken jugg, even the war is also based off PVP, so I hope you do a little review to modify the game's priorities.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/13/2015 18:19:15 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 32
7/13/2015 21:07:22   
Variation
Member
 

 @Charfade:
quote:

Balance tool is a feature given to balancers of ED. This tool allows them to adjust variables on weapons, skills, cores and character stats. Unfortunately I'm not able to give more information on this tool because of NDA and security reasons. I will mention that the balance tool was left in an unfinished state ( ran out of time to complete due to other company obligations ) and is extremely difficult to learn how to use. Because if you mess up a variable in the tool it can have mass wide negative effects on the game. Which is sometimes goes unnoticed during testing process.


Did you guys consider using a server cache that would represent the data edited/added to the tool (a flag also indicating whether the server should be using cache data)? The data definitely shouldn't be being added to the database because that in itself leads to simple security problems with typical mishaps on the programming side.

So here is my advice on it,

On the developer server script have variable(s) representing the server balance tool cache(s). Only write to a cache when the data attempted to be written is verified by function(s). The data would clearly use separators and checks can be extended to that methodology. If a field of the data is supposed to be an integer make sure it's an integer. If a field of the data is supposed to be a string make sure it's a string. If a balance cache data is supposed to have n and only n objects make sure it does. If active players using skills triggers the server to write to the database simply add the flag check.

The problem now becomes accessing the data in a nice readable form. Which I'm aware probably won't be as pretty(do to legit server limitations) as it is with better technologies*. To that I answer a simple array which would hold the balance cache data. The data can now be accessed via ids, where the array index is an (id - 1, for all id > 0) if the ids start at 1 which I believe they do. The array would hold the data you want to represent (whether it be another array or simply raw text).

Then of course functions can be built which can pull the necessary data and of course use the data like it uses the main skill data or edit the data (ex. changing a skill). Of course a resend data function that sends the new data to the connected clients.

*Now in nice OO languages such as Java, of course as you the developers know C#(C-Sharp), and many others, this entire cache mechanism could be added quite elegantly via generics as we know them in Java.

The client will also have a cache that it can use over the default data and a flag of course. Now we're getting to the fun parts. A simple GUI can be built which will allow balancers to pull current data from the default data. As in being able to pull a skill from the main data and edit it of course. A simple checkbox that represents whether the data that is pulled is read-only or can be edited. A button that would reset said skill to the default values and a button that will send a request to the server to update the skill, etc.

The client will also give security checks (to obviously stop simple mistakes that the server would have to deal with and send a bad request responses), for obvious reasons.

The client will need to be able to use the current cache data if the flag says so in all ways the original data is used except for retrieving the default skill values (the original data is used for that reason).

The client could also store active edits and allow those to be viewed. I'm aware if a balance tool ever came about being able to view active edits could help tons for bug related/calculation issues.

Balance permissions could also be added namely a,
•Standard balance permission
•Developer balance permission --> Developer balance permission would simply serve as an ok to use fields not visible/usable/allowable(enforced by the server). Permissions of course in regards to data visibility would lead to more lines of code, namely in when the data is sent out. The standard permission system of course would most definitely enforce said user is a balancer before even allowing usage of the tool.

Concurrency of course is an issue in regards to a server cache if the server engine isn't taking care of it for you. This could also be handled via flag(s) in writing/sending data. Though I do believe the server engine takes care of any concurrency related problems.

There is so much I could add in regards to a balance tool and I'm aware that implementing one in EpicDuel would have lots of gotchas, but I truly know a pretty fine one could be programmed. The biggest issue is security and this is where security flags come into play. Using a server cache over a database would also serve as an aid in my opinion, in both security and easily extending functionality.

Programming it would obviously take time, but in my honest opinion Charfade, a completion of my abstract sounds like a typical side-project (as in nothing strongly interfering with the likes of EpicDuel/Biobeasts content).

You mentioned work on it was done and I applaud that. The question for the developers now becomes is will the abstract and our thoughts on the tool be re-examined? Questions such as, why does a simple mistake using the balance tool have severe negative impacts on the game? Is the tool worth completion? What are the overall benefits said tool completion would grant? Most people who play this game have answers. They have answers that may or may not be good, but the answers that matter the most are what you and the core development team deem good.

That is all I have to say on the matter besides possible future elaboration if needed.

I sincerely thank you and the rest of the team striving for even the most basic understanding of betterment.

< Message edited by Variation -- 7/13/2015 21:46:30 >
Post #: 33
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