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Ranks need to go

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10/12/2015 18:58:20   
Noobatron x3000
Member

If you are serious or making any attempt what so ever to save this game ranks need to go.

When you do thr math they are broken underdog does not make up for the difference all it does is provide a luck factor the rank holder/ higher rank still has a huge advantage , Adding luck does not fix the problem at all luck does not compete with a hard damage increase / defence increase.

A few stat points does not match the benefits of ranks.

The old players are probably never coming back , meaning new players are your only option.

Throwing your new players to the wolfs as soon as they get to a level where they encounter ranked players is not the way to go , the few times they get hardcore luck and win will not offset the amount of times they get slaughtered.

Most will leave because of this it isn't fun .

Either entirely remove ranks or remove the battle advantage.
Post #: 1
10/13/2015 4:44:23   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 I'm not experiencing the same problem you seem to observe and I frequently beat players dozens of ranks above me. I also get beaten now and then by skilled lower-levelled players. A much stronger argument will have to be made before we review ranks again.
Post #: 2
10/13/2015 8:30:57   
dfo99
Member
 

 in my opnion, ranks is not even strong as it is supposed to be, if you don't want play against high rank players then go npc or 2v2. the legendary ranks is not the problem or epic duel.

< Message edited by dfo99 -- 10/13/2015 8:31:24 >
Post #: 3
10/13/2015 8:31:18   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Anybody who tells me the person with the rank and sometimes level advantage also doesn't have a huge statistical and raw damage defence advantage better provide facts.

Anyone who tells me underdog makes up for this advantage again better provide facts.

Anyone who thinks it is reasonable that anyone who hits level 36 should run into this brick wall again should explain why .

And make peace with the fact that the server number will never improve while ranks are here.

Because they give the impression of being incredibly unbalanced and they are.

Being able to beat someone if the stars line up and 15 supernovas all occur in the galaxy at the same time is not a basis the exception not the rule.

Fact is if you face someone of equal skill with a massive advantage they will win , This is why ranks are broken you cannot introduce such a level of power creep with such a small player base where the matchmaker will be forced to start fights that are over before they begin repeatedly.

If you want the population to improve.

It sends out the message that the games got to the point other games have pandering to the elitists for the last hoo rah before cyber oblivion
Post #: 4
10/13/2015 8:42:55   
dfo99
Member
 

 come one dude, we are talking about just more 30 of defenses and 40 of damages and +20 on heal/-10 mana on cores, probably an hybrid armor level 1 give a better buff than 80 leg ranks.

instead whining at forum go get some exp.
Post #: 5
10/13/2015 9:06:06   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Stop trying to deflect and provide some facts

You are infact talking about 30 extra primary damage 40 extra sidearm damage , 30 extra def/res more aux and robot damage .

Yeah the numbers don't sound like a lot till you start factoring in battle length the numbers stack fast . in a 10 turn match your going to do atleast 300 more damage then your opponent and take 300 less damage .

Not to mention in some cases not only will you have the rank advantage but also the level advantage with better base damage on your weapons and more stat points (even after underdog)

Its broken anyone who suggests otherwise isn't playing epicduel actively.

And probably holds a win rate of 10-20% against people with a significant level and rank advantage , So because they see it as possible if they get lucky its okay.

Well no , and the higher level should win before you say it I agree. Problem is ranks add in to much power creep where there isn't a population to support it , They are really bad for the game.
Post #: 6
10/13/2015 15:12:25   
Lord Machaar
Member

I'm glad at least that the devs have bothered themselves and implemented the underdog mode, because once I remember while I was quitting the game for 1 year and half (and before the underdog mode was implemented), some odd battles happened, like a level 38 vs a rank 60 player, with no underdog mode, I don't know how an individual with some basic elementary school couldn't do simple calculations and prove that the game was broken at that time.

And sadly that occured for months, level 38 - low rank players used as punching bags, and even if you ask dfo99 at that time, he will gladly say, ranks gave no advantage, 60 ranks in difference with no underdog mode? Pfft, Come on that's not an advantage, it's just your build or class. Yeah, Sure, give me a rank 60 account, play with a rank 1, and we will see who is gonna win, but since this can't happen as long as we don't have access to dev server, players like dfo99 will still gladly say that. But hey I'm here, I'm a high rank player, so all good.

Well I'm glad I came back, and this is only the beginning, underdog mode as a first step, maybe after it gets implemented in 2vs2 and jugg, we can call for a buff to it in 1vs1.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 10/13/2015 15:15:43 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 7
10/13/2015 17:19:37   
Mother1
Member

Lets see

1) No compensation for players who spend varium/credits on ranks suggested

2) We have underdog mode which boosts the weaker player up to make matches more fair than before

3) In some causes Underdog mode can give the person more stats than the person with ranks.

Sorry but no I can't see a reason to remove ranks from the game that won't end badly for those who worked hard earning the EXP getting them and who have done nothing wrong but play the game.

Before underdog mode I was even suggesting we should change the ranks to give out non battle rewards but with underdog mode in play I can't even agree with removing it anymore.
Epic  Post #: 8
10/13/2015 18:14:19   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Give them compensation or switch the bonus to a out of battle bonus.

No pvper worth their salt wants to seal club

This is best for the respect they want and for everyone else to.

Winning a fight when your holding a machine gun and your opponent is holding a knife means nothing.

Lets out the epic back in epic duel.

No one who can do basic math would argue underdog balances the fights at all.

It relies on luck , ranks are hard numbers and bigger numbers that you get to chose where you put them

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 10/13/2015 18:15:47 >
Post #: 9
10/13/2015 18:25:23   
8x
Member

Removing ranks would be just a tiny drop in the sea of changes that ED needs.
Epic  Post #: 10
10/13/2015 20:03:17   
Mother1
Member

@ Noobatron

Underdog mode gives out stat points not luck. If it was luck underdog mode primary gave out you wouldn't be getting stats which in turn powers up the skill tree accordingly along with all forms of damage.

Underdog and Ranks can be compared to stat shields and just pure shields

Underdog is like a stat shield. It raises your stats and all other skills, factors that come along with it.

Ranks on the other hand are like pure shields. They focus on a single area and nothing else.

Epic  Post #: 11
10/13/2015 20:20:30   
Noobatron x3000
Member

I got 8 stats vs a 39 earlier on my l35 did that make the fight balanced?

Hell no

it gave me two levels worth of stat points ........... he still had 8 more stat points then me before you factor in weapon stats armor stats ....... weapon base damage increases.........armor increases skill points

Now add ranks to that to.

Under dog mode doesn't balance anything the higher level still has ALL the advantages.....

Claiming otherwise is silly.

Someone at such a level knows how to make sure they win with such an advantage, Sure you will get the odd terrible 40 who you can beat at such a disadvantage but any 40 your skill level or above you don't stand a chance its broken as hell.

Claiming that it can be done in wild circumstances or against a poor player does not make ranks balanced.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 10/13/2015 20:21:46 >
Post #: 12
10/13/2015 20:32:20   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Removing ranks would be the first step towards just improving the game drastically. The most important initial change we will see is the matchmaking will become more fair. Now that there are a lot more battles with people who have the exactly same stat totals as their opponents, it's also a lot safer to conclude whether or not certain things are actually OP. A lot of other beneficial things could result from removing ranks.

Keeping them as they are just gives people some silly busy-work type of objective when they have nothing else to do but feel like playing ED. Since we have super long missions and bosses that require very specific types of strategic builds I don't think ranks are necessary to serve this purpose.
Epic  Post #: 13
10/14/2015 2:48:14   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Removing ranks is not feasible at this point in the game because it would alienate too many players. If there is a need to further reform ranks, do give alternative suggestions. But eliminating ranks altogether is not an option.

I have also yet to see an argument that shows me why further rank reform is necessary. I certainly have a far greater win rate than '10-20%' against higher ranked opponents and do play EpicDuel frequently, so please stop denigrating the poster and build on the argument. Something more than hypothetical calculations is needed - the 'deal 300 more damage and take 300 less damage' argument is extremely flawed when you consider that up to 50% of turns are spent on non-damage dealing moves, that quite a few attacks would do minimum damage regardless of ranks, that rage negates up to 45% of def/res, and that ranks do not affect burst damage skills.

One possible argument, for instance, is that ranks disproportionately benefit tank builds/ 5 focus builds, such that they form the overwhelming majority of all builds at higher ranks, and that they hence need to be reviewed.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 10/14/2015 6:07:27 >
Post #: 14
10/14/2015 6:02:49   
Rogue Ninja
Member

Either way if it's removed or not. It's not going to change Epic Duel that much in my opinion.
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
10/14/2015 6:24:07   
Darkwing
Member

If pvp based ranks would be replaced and the new ranks would only be about NPC, maybe a bit more credits from battle wins( 5-10 % more), cheaper prices from vendors( 5% cheaper), sell items for more( 5-10%) and not have any real bonus in PVP, everyone would be happy.

Underdopg mode would go away too and the luck factor legendary complain that this mode brings.


Lower level players would be happy, high players would be happy cause they have easy time with NPCs, and they are bale to earn more credits from wins, and buy or sell items cheaper ( selling for more).


THIS WILL ALSO SOLVE THE BOT PROBLEM. Players will have less reasons to bot since they don't get pvp advantage. And let's face it, ever since ranks this game had such a bad problem with bots that they have to deal with. Look at Runescape, they just abolished 1,4 milòlion bots, you want this game to have something like that too?







< Message edited by Darkwing -- 10/14/2015 6:43:06 >
Post #: 16
10/14/2015 6:30:39   
Foulman
Member

SSM, the fact that these ranks allow people to both take and deal 300 extra damage is not flawed. It's forced players from level 36 to rank 5ish to make builds that end battles extremely fast to minimise the impact that ranks have on a match. And there is the fact that a high rank player could have the same defenses as a low rank or unranked player, but they would also have 70 more damage with the stat points they've been able to use offensively, rather than defensively. And noobatron is right. As a level 38, the ranked players already have more stats and better equipment. Add ranks to that, and a match between two players with equal skill simply results in a seal clubbing game. And that is why ranks need to go. As for compensation, NPC bonuses should stay, and maybe get buffed, while ranks could give financial bonuses, like credits every day for logging in, arcade tokens as rewards, maybe equipment dropping for ranked players in PVP with certain perks (new ranks) and finally, extra credits for winning. A credit multiplier from a perk could also work as a win streak perk. But these new ranks should not give any pvp benefits whatsoever, because it is alienating the players who need to go through unwinnable battles for more than 10,000 battles before they have another fair go at pvp. This is why people bot so much these days.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 17
10/14/2015 8:50:02   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Underdog is nothing completely irrelevant its only here for the guys that cant do kindergarden maths to feel better.

Anyone who claims ranks are balanced and isn't just a exercise in seal clubbing isn't playing the game.

You have to face a player worse then you far worse to win with such a disadvantage this concept in pvp is utterly flawed.

Yes people will get upset if ranks are removed a lot more will be happier.

All ranks are doing is providing a seal club experience for the higher ranks , keeping new players away , and keeping the older players away who come back every now and then to be olliterated because they got left behind.

Power creep is detrimental to any game

That server number needs to pick up , ranks need to go as a first step to this happening.

Heres a little test I ran

First of all I'm a pretty good player aware of what's hsppening I know when to play aggressively and when to play defensively and when to heal and I can usually predict my opponents next move and when a game is won or lost 5/6 turns before its over.

I have a 6 40 I decided to calculate my win% ion 50 games in 1v1 against players not level 40 and 50 games against ranked players bracketed.

my win % against players under level 40 was 95%

my win % against players within 20 ranks of me was -75%

my win % against players above 20 ranks ahead of me was - 45%

now if I can do that to people under 40 at rank 6 what chance do they stand against someone higher?

2v2 was more interesting I also took account of my opponents team I didn't count balanced fights with lower levels as that doesn't really help the point I'm trying to prove .

2v2 where I had a 36-39 against 2 40s - our win % was 30% because no matter what you do your forced on to the defence , The 2 40s throw everything they have at your partner and even with one of the strongest builds for the level he can neither handle the damage hes taking or return it , and all the smart opponents pressed the advantage forcing us both to heal him or lose then simply turned onto me and got rid of the threat so we had very little chance of winning, or just obliterated him/ her laughing at the heals.

2v2 where I had a 40 partner and my opponent had a 36-39 - rather surprisingly I had a 98% win rate

I was expecting my 1v1 win% to be higher but it appears ranks are even more broke in 2v2 then 1v1 . Do not deflect with this their still broken in 1v1 , a lower level cannot hope to beat a experienced player with the advantage.

Ranks would be better not okay if you had more players. And honestly they would still be broken , but it would be less visable , But you don't have more players and ranks are acting as a direct deterrent to you getting more players. No one wants the feel of a unbalanced game it doesn't make them want to play, and this is exactly what ranks do.

Oh and something I'd like to add another problem I found , the games I did win with a extreme disadvantage in 2v2 were not fun at all , I was having to work overtime , And rely on my opponents making mistakes. I was in hardcore carry mode not my partners fault but it just wasn't fun even the few times I pulled a win , But it was almost completely reliant on bad build on the opponents team or them making stupid mistakes.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 10/14/2015 9:47:36 >
Post #: 18
10/14/2015 9:54:20   
Lord Machaar
Member

It makes go crazy when a player that has 15k + NPC wins, come here and cry about ranks AKA PVP advantage. You do not have the right to speak about the influence of ranks in PVP if all you've done in the
months is botting NPCs for your 60 ranks. Sure talk about the influence of ranks in NPC. But please don't come here and cry about advantage in PVP, that in the first place you don't deserve for 2 reasons:
- Winning NPC battles that have 0 relationship with PVP.
- Botting NPCs, which is as I can see, is legal, since devs are still struggling against those who bot in PVP.

As long as there are players who have 60+ ranks generated by botting NPCs, yet they come here after all that time of to speak about PVP advantage, and cry about underdog mode and how is it unfair, I don't
think this would be a fruity discussion.

I will put my own suggestion in the suggestions thread so check it out. http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22043997&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 10/14/2015 10:10:33 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 19
10/14/2015 11:27:06   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 I reiterate - removal of ranks, including the PvP advantage ranks provide, is not an option. If you feel that ranks are imbalanced, please give alternative suggestions. A nerf to the PvP aspect of ranks must be made up for by some sort of bonus to the non-PvP aspect.

So, for example, if I suggest that all ranks should provide one less bonus point - making it a max of +20 to primary, def and res and +30 to gun, aux and bot, for instance, there should also be increased non-PvP benefits, such as the ability to win more influence during wars through battle.

Noobatron, I see no problem with the win rate you are reporting for 1v1. A 50% win rate against players over two eLevels higher than you is not bad. Overall your win rate also seems decent, so it's not exactly a seal clubbing. Furthermore, a key component of the last rank reforms was improved matchmaking, making it much more likely for players with small differences in eLevels to be matched together I.e. below-40s should not be meeting high-ranked players often - in fact this should be the player demographic that they fight least often.

2v2 and Juggernaut balance reviews are ongoing.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 10/14/2015 11:34:24 >
Post #: 20
10/14/2015 11:40:14   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Your opinion irritates me as a guest writer , Since you clearly don't play the game

Since if you did you would know

Since I have toons between 25-40 2 40s

All I see in 2v2 after level 36 is 1-2 40s on the opposing team quite often without a 40 on my side.

And in 1v1 after 38 over 70% of my games are against 40s quite often high ranked.

When was the last time you logged in?

How long did you stay logged in ?

How many pvp battles did you do?

How often do you play toons 36+?
Post #: 21
10/14/2015 11:49:52   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Noobatron, I am perhaps the most active player on the guest team, and I almost exclusively play my main character, which is level 40 rank 7, every weekend for up to 80 battles. This means that I do have a blindside - I cannot tell what the level 36-39 battle experience is. So your feedback about the matchmaking system is valuable and perhaps we can tweak that, but you should note that up to level 40 rank 9 is considered within 2 eLevels for a level 38 and thus very reasonable. Personally the vast majority of my battles are with players within two eLevels of my character as well.

You also should not be irritated by my answer. It is necessary to accept that rank elimination will not be considered, but that reform is possible. Else player energy will be directed into something completely unproductive.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 10/14/2015 11:52:51 >
Post #: 22
10/14/2015 11:52:29   
Noobatron x3000
Member

The battle advantage of ranks has to be considered.

The player base isn't large enough as it is.

All this does is allow the minority here to gain power, Acting as a deterrent to keep new players away once they run into the wall at level 36

Please believe me when I say ranks are extremely harmful not to the current tiny community but to its chances of growing once again.
Post #: 23
10/14/2015 12:04:06   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Noobatron, I was one of the most vocal and ardent opposers of ranks prior to the rank reform. I knew how it felt like struggling against high rankers as a level 38-39 player before that reform. I also once advocated for the elimination of ranks. But after joining the dev team, I understood that that is not feasible, just as it is not feasible to bring back passives or previous phases. So we must settle on reform. This is not necessarily a bad thing - creative solutions can help us move toward a desirable middle ground. And if there is a balance issue, we want players to help give suggestions to address it. But the first step is acknowledging that reform is necessary and rank elimination unfeasible.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 10/14/2015 12:06:43 >
Post #: 24
10/14/2015 12:14:02   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Providing stats less stats then the level advantage gives far less in most cases I don't see what this achieves. So instead of having 16 less stats I have 10 less stats and he has 20 ranks 4 skill points , The stats from the weapon upgrades in the 4 levels, more armour. more base damage, more skill points, more hp ,

And has played the game long enough to know how to absolutely obliterate me , underdog doesn't balance anything, Unless the opponent is a poor player or you get 3 crits and blocks you cant recover from such a advantage.

Same story with 38s anyone who doesn't factor in the fact that underdog gives you less stats then the 40 your facing the 40 has ranks, all hes gear amx stats (that's even more stats then you) better damage on all his weapons , better armour , more skill points , more hp , hes superior on every level then he gets ranks just to break the match that bit more.


Well time to take a break see whats going on with other games I'll be back when they fix ranks , Even my 40s are horrible to play. I just hope they realise they cant afford to lose the players they will lose through ranks.

If you fix them you will upset a few of the people already here, If you don't fix them you will upset 90% of new comers. You desperately need this game to grow.

Your move.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 10/14/2015 14:47:16 >
Post #: 25
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