The Gap (Full Version)

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edwardvulture -> The Gap (8/5/2011 19:31:32)

The Gap between var and non-var players. Do you think its too big or too small?




Chosen 0ne -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 20:38:02)

To small!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1




Angels Holocaust -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 20:43:18)

It's good. Non variums should never be able to compete with variums, if this happens the variums would leave.




MrBones -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 20:44:01)

Gap is fine. With the money issue always getting worst, you can expect the gap to grow..




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 21:04:56)

whatever teh gap is right now whenever we get teh balance update that makes percent dmage based on weapon damage not total damage the gap will shrink.

also Angels back in Beta i used to be Founders for fun just saying




DeathGuard -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 21:08:01)

Lets be honest guys, nonvariums are really far away from us, and more with enchancements since they can't afford enchancements so easily like us.




Wraith -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 21:08:13)

Its too small.

Non-variums should have:

-5 stats than Variums and -2 enhance than varums and -2 damage.




MrBones -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 21:14:53)

quote:

Angels Holocaust
It's good. Non variums should never be able to compete with variums, if this happens the variums would leave


How about non varium start with only half their HP and energy and have to fight with one hand behind thiers backs.



Gap is fine as it is.





ajs777 -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 22:12:16)

well right now the gap is about this big *holds up hands certain distance apart*
when really it should be about this big *holds up hands a certain distance apart*




bluerain28 -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 22:16:52)

The Gap?

Kinda big.

Reason why varium says the gap is fine because they pay. But if they were a non var, they would say "big". That's a fact.




ajs777 -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 22:19:21)

quote:

The Gap?

Kinda big.

Reason why varium says the gap is fine because they pay. But if they were a non var, they would say "big". That's a fact.

which means everytime you beat a varium you should feel pretty darn good of yourself, i have more fun on my non var alts it seems like plus when a varium loses to a non var they get all angry ^_^




edwardvulture -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 23:29:17)

I don't think its too bad. I just do NPC's in power hour and some 2 on 2. The only real one on one i do is arcade.

But.....


when you compare starter non-variums (think hero) and starter varium players. The non-var is always doomed.


WHY?

The varium player copy builds.

@Lord Sinistar: Isn't that what it is right now except f2ps can't afford enhancements and they have to spend more time farming credits for weps so what you described is actually better than what it is right now.




Joe10112 -> RE: The Gap (8/5/2011 23:42:41)

I feel too big. But that's probably kuz I'm level 38 and facing level 33 variums 50+% of the time.

But if I managed to get to level 33 and still be nonvar, and get some good items and win an assault bot...i'd start thinking nonvar and vars are getting closer and closer...but for now, too big.




Giras Wolfe -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 0:08:21)

Too big. If nonvariums can't compete with variums at ALL they won't even play the game, and I won't be able to beat up ANY nonvariums.

@Ajs
XD




ND Mallet -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 0:17:17)

The gap is too large. I get beat up by any player who has the Delta Weapons regardless of their level, class or build on my mage alt. Even if they have only that weapon and no armor, I still have a good chance to lose and I have both Carrierzooka and Maple Cleaver(or whatever the energy version is called). I feel that non varium gear should be 4-6 stats below a varium player's gear. Enhancements should be the same regardless of the varium status or lack of. So a varium weapon is released having 6 slots. A non varium sword is also released but it has 6 slots as well. If the staff want to give more enhance slots to varium then increase it by 1 for variums. 2 would give 8 more stats after all the enhancements are made.




Angels Holocaust -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 0:22:13)

@ One Winged Angel

quote:

whatever teh gap is right now whenever we get teh balance update that makes percent dmage based on weapon damage not total damage the gap will shrink.

also Angels back in Beta i used to be Founders for fun just saying



How do you be a founder for fun? That makes no sense at all.




TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 3:32:39)

quote:

Lets be honest guys, nonvariums are really far away from us, and more with enchancements since they can't afford enchancements so easily like us.


so ? we are the ones spending hundreds of dolars in this game sry but i want to win all non variums ( maybe 1 lose against a non varium in a day is fine)




xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 3:44:37)

The Gap is far too large. Compared to the fully-fledged and enhanced Varium players, Non-Varium players don't stand a chance. Why? Because the distribution of stats are unequally laid for both contemporary and non contemporary players, the window/margin of success for competing players has narrowed down significantly and thus have forced individuals to mimic builds, relying on O'PED templates to provide easy wins. Such actions have created a tolerance for "build abuse" in the past year and has continued simply because individuals aspire to invest advantageously via Varium purchasing or by adopting builds that circumvent standard or what is perceived to be "average" builds. It has also furthered ED's tolerance to constantly address modifications to balance issues derived from this gap~ a gap of O'PED and redundant builds that continue to harbour problems along balancing in such a game. This has become evident from overt "Balance fixes" in each update weekly in the stages of Gamma and Delta. Retrospectively as a former beta player, I don't frankly recall updates that focused on "Balancing" but introducing new features like factions and so forth. And for those who were in Alpha, it was a totally new and exciting experience as there were a whole variety of plausible builds that emerged. However, such builds have receded and have in due time, adopted O'PED builds. And why is this feasible issue the case? Because the gap prior in terms of stats in the beta stages were not as enlarged as it is now and developers have close to no time to introduce new exhilarating features like bikes, arcade modes, etc. With a tentative problem embedded interface as a result of imbalance (The gap of stats among the nonvariums and variums), updates seem to be more focused on the "balance" issue which in my perspective, will take a very very long time to fix. And if this continues, if the devs are occupied with such matters, how is the game going to move forward?

Which brings us to the a standing inquiry; has anyone observed the static augmenting of stats being enlarged slowly throughout ED's history? This seems like a dubious question but it hasn't really emerged in our attention quite clearly. I remember as a player, the stats were very simple during the beta stage. A few meager 16 stat difference from the average nonvarium and varium player. And then into Gamma and Beta; the bots, enhancements, promo-armours and etc, the gap of stats has been amplified 2 fold from 16 stats to a drastic 30-40 (this statistic based on nonvariums who are deprived the necessary capacity in terms of credits to compete and enhance weaponry slots in comparison to varium users) and has further divided ED into a game governed by the higher tier and lower tier of players.

But how would such a divide pretentiously contribute as a disservice to the ED community? This can be all thanks to the hefty enhancements and stat marginalization from varium and nonvarium weaponry. Understandably, few players address this issue but those who are in a position of superiority (via through varium purchases), are unwilling to give up their advantage as players as such a closure would be devoid (I imagine) their chance to maintain cutting edge and advantage in EpicDuel. But let me ask you this; Isn't ED a game that values strategy over money? Since when did buying or purchasing more varium correlate to one's ability to truly play the game? And for further clarification, has varium been a stable currency? Constantly, varium players are purchasing more varium over a period of time and have expended a load-some of money and cash (sometimes extraneous and ridiculous amounts close to $100.00). And when such an ability to exhume varium is diminished, one must replenish varium again and again and again. And why is this the case? Because varium weaponry and armours are not sustainable* (arguably). Exampled by the varium founder armour in Beta in comparison to the new Tesla armour in Delta, one can make the observation that both are drastically different in terms of stats and whatnot. As both were granted to varium players, I ask you this; at what lengths do players go at the expense of competing in Epic Duel? Is purchasing varium just to obtain a cutting edge a lost and obsolete cause*?

Focusing back on the GAP, many may argue, (and I totally pro for your side), that Varium players directly support this game and keep it running however, Nonvariums indirectly support it as well by providing a lesser form of competition to the higher tier of players. And why would such a lesser form of competition to higher tier players be valued in a ED PVP community? Well, because without the feeble race of nonvariums like myself, would there be a point in playing if there didn't exist the slightest certainty of victory with another varium individual? And if the gap were to be maintained as it is now, this would not only discourage the lesser and more experienced nonvarium tier but also less experienced newcomers who try this game and get easily crushed and pwned by varium users as due to premature experience. Ask yourself, if you were a nonvarium player playing against 10 or perhaps even 20 varium players everyday in every battle, would you, be still competing and battling against unfair odds? Would you enjoy getting crushed every time, devoid of any fair chances or lucky breakthroughs? An some opposition may say "why don't you purchase varium and so forth?". Well in response to such a question, perhaps such an individual values moreso the stratagems involved and not necessarily the winning aspect in the game or maybe such an individual does not have money and enjoys to play for free. However, the GAP has only created exceedingly different divides of players and the chances of nonvariums actually wining against variums have marginalized into a slim inexplicable percentage that promotes unfair battling. The divide has augmented varium from nonvarium and has augmented nonvariums devoid of any chance of winning. Against a 30+ stat difference between the two tiers, nonvariums are slowly consumed and are declining in numbers in effect whilst varium users have been progressively increasing. With the target audience focused on varium users, nonvariums become less and less in number and through time discourage such players to continue to play the game.

This explains why ED does not have many players because the margin of competition between the nonvarium and varium tier has been so largely amplified that it seems like a joke that a nonvarium would EVER stand a chance against a varium user. You may argue that their are several nonvariums who have excellent builds but have we ever considered the standard and not so-elite-majority of nonvarium players who don't play this game 24/7 and lack the capacity to compete? This can be seen by the amount of players who play ED in comparison to AQWORLDS. AQWORLDS has done a better job in marketing the benefits for the higher and lower tier which brings the question as to why and how? This is all based on the fundamental rudimentary understanding that lower tier players may also coexist with the higher tier players. Balance can only be remedied if we recognize this and make modifications in accord to peaceful coexistance with varium and nonvarium kin. Balance can be achieved when the lower tier has the capacity to compete with the higher tier without removing the higher tier's capacity to compete.

And what would ED be like if all the nonvariums left this game? If there were nonvariums leaving because of this GAP, fewer nonvarium players playing the game for the first time or simply stopped playing this game all together? It would be Varium and Varium PVP battles all day which in my imagination, would resolve into the same thing we had in the beginning. More armours, guns and whatnot and offers that try to garner the illusion that with more varium, one may become more powerful over time*. But the cycle continues and continues and never stops. As prior the analogy drawn from the Founders to Tesla armour, nothing will stay or remain top Notch*. For those who have Tesla armour, be prepared to purchase more varium and also a new set of weaponry in the near "future" *wink :P

It is in my thoughts that closing the GAP will provide closure to all players both Varium and Nonvarium. Resolutely, if such was implemented, I could envision such things to occur:
- The gap between Varium and Nonvarium would be remedied, encouraging both sides to try new builds and think creatively instead of stockpiling stats.
- With Varium being a large contributor to the gap created by over pilling stats through enhancements, stat marginalization should be lowered. I would imagine this would only be achieved with a 16 or less stat point difference from varium and nonvarium players combined from all weaponry.
- With such changes, it would provide more competition between existing varium veterans and also nonvariums who favour strategy and skill;not just "mindless" 1v1 pvp mowing or killing. This strategy would be something that favours knowledge, skills and expertise which makes this game alot more enjoyable on a whole different level. And with this in effect, Varium as a currency wouldn't have such a "bloated effect" on upper tier users who are constantly pressured to purchase more varium whilst while the nonvarium class is left to bite the dust. More players would be encouraged to play and having a larger base of support from both varium and nonvarium players could see potential avenues for ED to become an even larger success than it is now.


Aside from such notions, conclusively, it can be drawn that the GAP has only created and not healed problems throughout the duration of ED's history. This is because it has resulted into:
-O'PED builds and build abuse which are constantly criticized and not approved by the ED community as it promotes unfair play. Such is only utilized by a small minority of varium users who have the ability to massively stock on one stat.
-Has preoccupied the Dev's with balance issues as a result from constantly being needed to modify and reduce the large stat marginalization which limits their working capacity to create new features other than constant modifications in terms of balance.
-Discourage old and new nonvariums alike and whilst has created receding and falling support from newcomers and by the nonvarium populace which is crucial in the recognition that nonvariums play an important role as a agent within the ecology of competition between variums.
-Over time, has by far, limited creative builds as O'PED builds generally have an overt advantage in battle. Players are forced to mimic very similar builds which is sometimes very boring or unoriginal and even some cases, oddly predictable.
- The GAP has made if far too easy for varium users to win many battles and has resulted into boredom and inactivity. Players such as Flath are examples who have competed almost endlessly and now, are inactive. There is no strategy or competition that extends outside the benefits of a varium user*.


It is for such reasons, the GAP does not fully enrich the playing game atmosphere but rather ignores half the majority of players who are in this climatic-crisis. Which also brings me to another point; all players should equally exercise some form of healthy competition within the growing community. As a community, I feel it is each our responsibilities to impart rationale reasoning instead of thinking to much of ourselves. So, for those who do not approve of this and if you like to call us nonvariums (Easy win) or are satisfied with the status quo please consider this. Have your wins the product of strategy and true skill? Were any of those battles honorary and well fought? An Epic Duel, what do the words really mean?

And remember, ED is a community, an ecology of members that form a very important part in the competing aspect of the game. Like a biological ecology, all entities within the community must synergies with it's other similar members. Thus, we need to be aware not just about varium but nonvarium users as well. By Undermining nonvariums, you're also doing yourself a undermining ED's potential as a community to grow. And if you heartily approve ED's condition as of right now, please look into the stat of imbalance we're in right now.


I favour rationale and reason~
"Unknown" Lvl 33 Nonvarium Mage

(*I take no bias towards individuals who purchase varium but in this context, am merely speculating it's value towards the ED PVP interface to an individual. In this regard, I do not impart any opinion that varium should be purchased or not; hopefully, such an understanding is clear in this statement and also in my post)




T.600 -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 4:55:33)

Varium players should have an advantage; they should have more overall stat modifiers than non-variums and better looking items. A non-varium should still be able to enjoy the game but just not to the extent of a full varium player. If they made some fixes to the balance in 2vs2, then 2vs2 might seem a more appealing mode for the non-varium players out there. I always did 2vs2 prior to reaching the level cap and I enjoyed it, although that was a long time ago :p.

Suggestion shop updates are always enjoy by the non-varium community, along with a few other things. Making credit options for features such as class change and enhancements really made the non-variums feel more appreciated even though it was slightly difficult to attain enough credits to use those features. How large or small is the gap now? In terms of the weapons' stats, it's a reasonable sized gap.




zelemania -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 5:31:55)

The gap is OK if there weren't enhancements. Only a few non-varium players could get their items fully enhanced with these insane credit prices. You would need ~10k wins to have the best items enhanced.




Minus123 -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 5:49:09)

The gap is fine as it is. If anything, the gap is narrowing, because of the boosts in stats of f2p rares, and the nerfing of bots.





WhiteTiger -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 7:54:40)

In my opinion, the gap is way too large. Most varium players would say otherwise because it's to their advantage and they've gotten used to it.

quote:

Varium players should have an advantage; they should have more overall stat modifiers than non-variums and better looking items.

I agree that varium should be an advantage, but it shouldn't be necessary to win.

quote:

In terms of the weapons' stats, it's a reasonable sized gap.

Right now, the average level 33 varium player has around 95-110 stat mods. The average non-varium player at the same level has 65-75 stat mods. That means the average level 33 varium player is 5-11 levels higher, stat-wise, than a non-varium player at the same level. I really don't think that's fair, even for a paying advantage. Before enhancements, the gap was much smaller since the level 33 varium players would have around 80 stat mods and the average non-varium player, at the same level, would have around 55 stat mods. That would mean a 6 level gap, which is also quite large but much more reasonable than the current 5-11 level gap.

quote:

A non-varium should still be able to enjoy the game but just not to the extent of a full varium player.

I haven't done any studies on the matter, but I don't think most people enjoy a game when they constantly lose. Right now, I rarely do random solo/team/juggernaut battles because I know I'll lose most of them against varium players at my level, or even 1-2 levels lower. I'm just barely hanging onto the game, doing NPCs while hoping that balance will eventually come.

Some see my win record and think the gap's fine since I am a non-varium player, but also keep in mind ~80% of my wins were before enhancements, ~50% of which were in Beta and ~40% of which were done my NPCs. now looking at my losses, ~60% of my losses were after enhancements.

With the upcoming balance update, I feel EpicDuel's going in the right direction by nerfing robots, since the Gamma Bot was quite overpowered from the start. It'll also help shorten gap slightly since most non-varium players don't have a robot.




Drakadh -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 8:01:30)

I've fought with many vars and they have alot of advantage, But they never ALWAYS win against me. But the gap is a little big O.o




T.600 -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 8:04:20)

@WhiteTigerAE:

I agree that enhancements were the cause of many problems in Epicduel; they increased the gap between varium and non-varium players and they raised the cost of items (because you know have to enhance your item after you buy it). I think it would be fair if there were no auxillary and gun enhancements, because it's almost impossible for a non-varium to enhance his/her primary, sidearm, auxillary AND armour. It just costs too much. If they could enhance all of their weapons, then the gap would be much smaller. I've battled a non-varium who has fully enhanced items. He beat me and caught me off guard. That proves that it is possible for non-variums to avoid constant losses as long as the stat gap isn't too high.

Hopefully the balance team will try to address these issues, and I apologise for stating some incorrect facts. I became a full varium player at level 28 at around about late February/early March (can't remember exactly when), so I haven't experienced what it is like for a non-varium player. I do have a level 26 alt, although I stopped playing on it because battles became unwinnable and excruciatingly difficult.

The robot nerf that should be coming in the balance changes seems like the perfect nerf! It makes the gamma bot usable but it's not a weapon that can be abused in battle. I don't think that robots are 'dead' though, it just means that you can no longer rely on your robot in focus builds.




Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/6/2011 13:23:36)

@xxomegafaustxx

Wow, you really put some thought into this. That has got to be the longest post every in ED general discussion. And I must say, I agree with most of what you said. There are larger amounts of stats out there, which I would like to see go so creating builds can be more simple and I can focus on the actual skill tree more. However, I think Variums should have an edge in battle, they did support the game more than the non-variums. How big that gap should be in my opinion is just large enough that two equally smart players with same class/build (one is varium other is non-varium) will end up with the varium player winning 2 out of three times. The rest of the varium features should be unrelated to batte such as cooler looks and factions and stuff like that.




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