RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:30:26)

@Goldslayer: if we are gonna use a real world scenario then I am out, when it comes to balance, gameplay trumps reality.

what about only being able to view your opponents's build that first time you select them, then after that it only shows the stats. I know anyone
with basic knowledge of a pc could screenshot the build for copying [I mentioned the build copying issue in previous post] if they wanted to.

I understand the idea, in WoW when you do arena fights you are fighting blind too unless you know the players build personally, or face someone
you already faced before, and their's no guarantee their build will be unchanged. it makes it more exciting for sure, but its real time combat.
removing strategy to improve strategy? I think it's better suited to real time games where reaction times can be as important as the builds.

ED is turn based, and a lot of the strategy revolves around exploiting enemy weaknesses, guessing what they will do next and countering.
if you have no clue what you are facing, then when you pick your skill theirs a good chance you're gonna regret doing it or it could end up being
completely useless. you are basically shooting in the dark and hoping for the best. I thought you already hated the "luck" aspect of the game.

I doubt their is any benefit of removing the ability to view skill trees that will change my mind on this, but that's my two cents ^^ :)

@Zman: I think Goldslayer meant you would be able to see their stats, just not the build itself.
also would you be able to accurately [and consistently] guess the skills of all 5 focus builds ?? I doubt it very much.




Matrix77 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:33:01)

I can't say I'm not please with this upcoming balance update. I feel relieve that those two super classes finally get what they rightfully deserve. Good job balance team! Now I don't need to wait 6months to see CH getting nerf :)

TLM without smoke will definitely affects their builds in quite a dramatic way especially those str builds, however smoke allows them to synchronize along with their strike skills allowing them to have a lot of high damage outputs, taking smoke screen out of their build will in definitely decrease str build's effectiveness for most TLM players that are str base.

Static Charge being drastically nerfed from CH is a really good idea. I absolutely despise the fact that those str CH are able to malf + regain over half a bar of energy + massacre and heal 2-3x in one fight against me. Sometimes when I'm fighting tank CH with a decent str build and max static charge, I am more than capable of holding my ground against them but when they start healing 3+ times in that one fight, that just makes me go mad like seriously mad, they boost + heal over and over, no part of a fight like that is fair at all, though I can't blame them since to gain victory, you use every method you have.

Overall I think the balance team made a very good decision for balancing these two classes, thanks balance team :)

@Ashari - Are there any further plans for balances towards the other classes except TLM and CH coming the following week(next week to be exact)?


Looking forward to tomorrow!




Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:33:55)

@zman 2: From level 1-33 Plasma and Mineral armor both max out at +11. At level 34, there was a jump due to level scaling which shouldn't have been there in the first place. That's being removed.

quote:

Are there any further plans for balances towards the other classes except TLM and CH coming the following week(next week to be exact)?


Mercenaries are next up for a tune-up. They will be receiving a new skill that passively increases rage gain to replace Blood Shield. Blood Shield was one of the most underused skills for Mercs due to their limited options to restore health. Beyond that, our plans will depend on how the balance situation falls after all these changes are in place.




PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:35:44)

quote:

(maxes out at +11, down from +12)
this part difficult to read presumably :P




Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:39:45)

quote:

@Zman: I think Goldslayer meant you would be able to see their stats, just not the build itself.
also would you be able to accurately [and consistently] guess the skills of all 5 focus builds ?? I doubt it very much.

Then that would just give some builds an advantage over another, you see the stats of a strength BH. Pretty easy to tell what the skills are right? You see a 5 focus build. Kinda hard to tell what skills they have. Right?
So it really wouldn't be helping anyone.
@below
That's the point, a nerf, if they swapped then you would basically only lose 1 RES and the other classes with reroute will be nerfed.




Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:39:47)

Wow, so I get like 14 energy back now on hit.

That's way. Too. Low.

Personally I think Static Charge should be given to another class that has Reroute, and swap reroute with static charge. I feel that makes more sense.

Will we get a free re-train when build changes go live? My poor CH char...going to get nerffed heavily. A single EMP grenade will be devastating on us CH now, instead of the other ways around.

I feel we should replace Static Charge with ReRoute. It makes more sense...




PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:42:57)

@Zman: I agree that it would favour certain builds over others both offensively and defensively. I don't like the idea at all.
think you mistook my post for disagreeing with you.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:43:12)

@Joe
3 passives is a no. Armor + Debuff + passive Regen - that's why TLM lost Smoke. You can't have 3 at once, pick two only. For that reason, Static was made to what it is now so you can get Energy back but not pasively.
And it's good that it's low, it was one of the problems with CH - its heal looping which went over the top 99% of the time. I had Juggernaut fights (fighting one) where he healed against L28 and 29, using 2 HP Boosters and use Static+High heal to win after 5 minutes of fight at least. That was a problem. We'll see how they'll do now, and don't look at it from perspective of your class getting nerfed - other classes struggle to win against you so it's fair.




Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:45:29)

@^: Nah, not really.

Replace Shadow Arts with Reroute, then replace Static Charge with something else.





Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:47:44)

Yes really, that's why all classes have 2 skills: Debuff, passive Armor or Energy/Health regen. TLM's have Armor + Regen, CHs have Armor + Debuff and some kind of regen. BMs have debuff + BL. TMs have Energy regen + debuff. BHs have BL and debuff.
That's why TLM lost Smoke, and that's why SC got also nerfed as it made class too strong. 3 passives of above is a no, it's main reason it was taken away/nerfed.

@below
Tracker shows they are doing fine, just like BHs and BMs. So probably after the changes going live, they'll look at the data again and see who's underperforming or overperforming (does that word even exist? xD) and then it'll all be up to the buffs. We're still seeing Merc buff as they are UP'ed so that's probably next after this week's changes and possibly re-balancing (if needed again) of under/overperforming classes (don't take what I say for granted).




DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:48:27)

@Joe10112: Sorry to say it this way but you want the class to regain once again what it loses with SC, if they give ch reroute, they will look really dumb and will kill our hopes on them. We want to stop powerful and oped builds, don't make them stronger.

@Ashari: Why doesn't Tech Mage class have balance changes for high lvls? We have been waiting a lot for one...




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:49:27)

As I said just get rid of plasma armor. It's completely pointless.




Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:52:13)

I don't think CH are that overpowered. I have been killed by many many good builds by TM and BM and stuff.




Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:56:50)

@joe
Well that is mainly because you are not level 34 or full varium, a CH that is level 34 or full varium is very difficult to beat, I've only a defeated a handful. I can't get into this more because it may turn into a flame-war like many discussions about varium vs non varium do.




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:57:26)

@Ashari,

quote:

The way static charge works isn't changing. It will still take a percent of your total (damage from stregth + damage from weapon) primary damage. The percent you regain will just be lower. It's not supposed to be a universally useful for all builds. Static Charge is intended to be a skill that Strength builds gain more benefit from. Every skill in-game can benefit your more or less depending on your build. Static Charge is no different.


_______________Ashari, drastic countermeasures have been taken ever since Plasma Armour has been appended. What I will be attempting to explain, is because there is an armour, energy regeneration becomes less of a priority... no? In this way we are morphing into Mercenaries, tanking classes. I am totally fine with Cyber Hunter having recycled skills, and even skills mixed in from other classes, although Cyber Hunter seems to lack the true essence of what it means to be a Cyber Hunter... or a hunting mage in general. Bounty Hunters are aggressive but feeble. Tech Mages are passive and aggressive and feeble. Then, should not Cyber Hunters be be feeble (without a bonus armour)? I understand that we have thrown requirements everywhere, whether it be due to the fact that you require: a certain level, a certain stat, a certain way of improving a skill, to procure the results that you wish to adhere to. Although Static Charge has no true Strength requirement, indirectly due to the necessity of needing an amount of Strength in rectifying the preferred number of energy... that one needs for his/her preferred skills.

_______________Static Charge is a key means of strategy in our class. I am fine that it is nerfed, as I can tell that energy production numbers can be achieved promptly by only a matter of Strength, but crestfallen that Static Charge is still advantaging those who abuse Strength's power. Strength is as influential as few dare to accept. Because of rage, the fact that a player may deal 40 Primary damage and get blocked is coincidentally fine because of the large bonus to rage (players acquire rage from being blocked). You can possess no Dexterity and still dominate because rage will compensate the missing damage (also... if a player blocks, they do not receive rage points), and thus will compromise the fact that the player will not hit as often as a player who truly does dedicate to accuracy (Dexterity). According to rage, Strength beats Dexterity mercilessly because damage is more dangerous than not damaging (this is true for the literal meaning as well!!). Another way to say this is that 10 damage blocked is worth more rage than 10 damage hit. Health is of course another issue, but when you have a way to compensate health loss (reroute), you have less to worry about. [8D]

_______________I will continue to propose an edit to Cyber Hunter and making necessary edits to my suggestion as seen on page 1 of this thread. I simply prefer the best for everyone. I do not want my own kin to be overpowered or underpowered. I do wish for balance. One day I will be able to be admired in my criticism by even you Ashari. Static Charge will be "slightly fixed" after the nerf, although the skill perseveres to aid those in Strength and "more than less" for those who avoid the overused stat known as Strength. The further you dive with a Strength improving Static Charge, the more you will be likely to encounter Strength-related complaints (somewhat similar to my own [8D]). Personally, I am a player who chooses the underused outlook. I do this to gain respect from fellow players in my plight to experience the underdog trait of ingenuity in innovative strategy. I wish Static Charge would help in my goals, without being picky on my Strength. I could not do this as a Support Cyber Hunter simply because the energy output would not meet the standards for example, of being able to poison because Venom Strike is too expensive and I am only generating 8 energy per turn. [:(] If you can empathize on this topic, only the true spammings of ruthless power will benefit off the THE most influential skill for Cyber Hunters.

What I am about to comment on, is in good intention, I do not mean to troll when I quote, "every skill in-game can benefit your more or less depending on your build. Static Charge is no different". Does reroute, shadow arts, or field medic, venom strike, or atom smasher, blood strike improve universally as compared to other skills? They do not. I am not calling you out Ashari, when I say that skills were not built to be managed universally by our array of stats. I simply want to tell you that I loved your idea of when you first came up with Cyber Hunter at the beginning when people called it underpowered. Then we had to add an armour and now we, in justice, take our hatred out on Static Charge. :(

If we could change Static Charge to be "universal" amongst other skills that improve in their own independent ways (ie, field medic), we could balance the most basic of out-of-range number imbalances in the long run.

I appreciate your tolerance to read my entire post, and simply request one last reply to this message.

Thank you, and have a good day.




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 18:58:20)

Static Charge was one problem but the Cyber Hunters still having malfunction with their energy multi and their larger percentage of block rate making cheap shot from a blockable skill to an unblockable skill. So just as replacing smoke from the tact merc they need to replace malfunction for the Cyber Hunters, that way all three classes will not have a debuff skill to increase damage.




Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:01:16)

I still don't like the HUGE nerf to Static, you're literally slashing the regain by 40%, which is huge.

I see a future of STR Tac merc with Field Commander First turn, then Double Strike and stuff. If that's not OP, I don't know what is.




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:05:31)

+1 Void

Now my part.
I believe the balance team just got thd completely wrong, only due to the fact Ch never needed a passive armor in the first place. When they added it all these "issues" came to light. Which is completely unneeded.




DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:07:07)

@zman2: I will try to explain, gotta have some fun anyways

@Joe: You got a skill that provides defense (Plasma Armor), one that provides energy regeneration when hitted (Reroute), and a debuff(Malfunction) you will have to use some of them to provide a good build for your character but that is a deadly combo taking in mind if you go for a strength build plus massacre ( low lvl btw), you will create another build almost impossible to beat and that will screw balance once again plus energy regeneration would be better since it won't get blocked and would be more effective at the moment of receiving damage.




Whirlwindstorm2 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:09:12)

@ joe

More like 15% lol..
Honestly, I don't mind the static nerf at all. When using the malfunction + massacre builds. I use the same amount of energy as a BH without energy regen would have. Don't complain about balance changes, and try to find a way you can make a build work.




Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:10:40)

I don't know, I'm just saying that the nerf is 40% and it's just too much IMO.

I'm fine with replacing malfunction with something else.




PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:11:10)

I also think its backwards to nerf static charge, the skill that made Cybers fun, and then keep Plasma Armour, the skill that ruined the class.

can the ED Balance Team will explain the reasoning for the changes?

EDIT: I also prefer to lose malfunction [and plasma armor] instead of the static charge nerf.




IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:13:45)

@Joe10112 I don't see the problem here. SC gets nerfed by 15% and PA gets nerfed by 1 point. Besides that build happening is unlikely because first of it wont be very effective with low support second don't forget the amount of energy it will cost and if you have high dex you can block a lot andi f you have Azrael Bot then you're dead.




Whirlwindstorm2 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:14:30)

^ Agreed. I've noticed throughout my time as ch, that static has already been reduced many times.




Matrix77 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 19:14:42)

+ 1 whirl

Removing plasma armor won't make a big difference if static isnt put into its rightful place. Static is the skills that is allowing CH to use multiple damaging skills over and over. I got massacre twice in a fight with a tank CH before. Fair? No




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