RE: Quality for quantity. A fair trade? (Full Version)

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Xendran -> RE: Quality for quantity. A fair trade? (4/21/2014 3:51:22)

Honestly, the class revamps i posted are a good example of Imbalanced but enjoyable. They were designed to work with the current broken mechanics so they are inherently imbalanced, but it's less obvious and less frustrating when something is overtuned when things are so unique and different from eachother that battles feel fresh, and the overtuned builds aren't to the extreme of becoming the only ones used.

Getting killed by a seemingly overpowered build occasionally is not even close to the same experience as being bombarded by the same overpowered builds nearly every single time you battle, especially when those builds are extremely simple to use like the strength builds we have now.
Sometimes you even enjoy getting stomped by a seemingly overpowered build if it required them to do things you never thought of or expected, or use the mechanics in interesting and esoteric ways. It makes you think more about the possibilities of the combat system.

The first time you experienced a heal loop, you probably were a bit annoyed but also had a feeling of "Wow, that's clever".... until heal looping started being seen 24/7 and became easier to do. Then it just got annoying and made you not want to enter battles.
It also builds toxic player mindsets, because when you have an extremely powerful build with a very high win rate, you start to attribute it to your own cleverness and skill, even if it's an abuse of obviously broken mechanics. This starts bringing in the idea that if something kills you, ESPECIALLY if it kills you easily, it must be overpowered and broken because only something overpowered could possibly beat your build and skill. This is damaging to the game. This is not to say these players are not skilled, but it skews their view of the balance.

A good indicator of whether somebody has a skewed perspective on balance is whether or not they are willing to point out overpowered mechanics of their own class, and have the most input about the balance of their own class. People always tell me that i suggest nerfs for other classes to that mages can remain suprerior because I'm a native Tech Mage and returned to the class, but in reality mage is the class i criticize the most, because i have experienced it so much that i can see just how broken the mechanics truly are.
Most players who are commenting about the balance of other classes usually have not actually experienced these other classes for enough time to actually determine the impact that their suggested balance changes would have on the meta of that class, and this is also a problem that arises in actual balance updates from the developers not having enough experience battling actual players of their game rather than internal testers.

A good equivelant to the strength build of EpicDuel is the Giantdad of dark souls. The difference being, however, is that while a giantdad is very effective against inexperienced players, an experienced player will absolutely obliterate a giantdad player by taking advantage of the mechanics that giantdads are not using. The equivelant to this would be bludgeon spam mages being beaten out by builds that make clever use of other skills, but this is currently not the case. The ONLY build that beats them with clever use of other skills is literally just a modified version of the same build that adds fire scythe, malfunction, and raises support to 26 to gain a bit of extra rage when using Necrosis and bring scythe to level 2. Every other build that beats them just uses hard counters like hybrid armor, rather than ways to work around the other builds shortcomings (of which it has close to none).




overdead -> RE: Quality for quantity. A fair trade? (4/21/2014 8:15:24)

I just had a thought. I feel like it is so unfair to seek balance and claiming that what we present are "balancing" magical ideas that will fix the game when a "model" of balance is not presented. I guess what I want to know is what turn-by-turn flash game (which has the same concept of EpicDuel's gameplay--I don't need to go on the specifics) existing is completely balanced?




Xendran -> RE: Quality for quantity. A fair trade? (4/21/2014 8:22:28)

There is none. This is why the developers that do not have a natural inclination towards balance need somebody who does and can focus ENTIRELY on ONLY the balance, because that model has to be created from scratch. Something that is completely unfeasible for them to be doing with the way their work is being split up.

If every game had to be balanced based on another game, we would have never had a first game in any genre, or any sort of innovation of new gameplay mechanics.
The reason I personally suggest ideas in the way i do is because balancing is quite literally my job. It's how i eat every day. If i was bad at it, i wouldn't be getting the money to subsist because the results would cause the product to suffer.
Also, a lot of suggestions by people like me are based on mathematics and following baselines and standards.

The vast majority of suggestions are inherently imbalanced because of the game they are being suggested for.
I've explained before, but flat reductions on resistance/armor make the game literally impossible to balance unless you make rage scale and apply in such an esoteric way that your players are unlikely to ever understand how the system actually works.
Logarithmic percentage reduction is the only way to prevent the game from constantly breaking without making rage so obscure that noone understands it. One of the biggest symptoms of flat reductions is that every single damage multiplier in the game is in the wrong logical position.




overdead -> RE: Quality for quantity. A fair trade? (4/21/2014 11:47:21)

And please do enlighten me on the motivation of a company to complicate existing formula for battle outcome when the existing model keeps "retirees" from retiring for more than two days. I do believe the developers know how to read and understand it at the same time, not like your partner in 2v2 you can't communicate with. If they wanted to recreate this, they would have done so.

In my honest view, what they would take in for now (possibly until the distant future or shorter if you choose to hope) is a workaround of the current base-line equation with tinkering made to look like "major progress" and you know that. So why waste time, Xendran?




Xendran -> RE: Quality for quantity. A fair trade? (4/21/2014 15:59:38)

The loss of approximately 65-80% of the playerbase would be a good reason to want to bring the game out of a fundamentally broken state.




Therril Oreb -> RE: Quality for quantity. A fair trade? (4/21/2014 17:38:01)

I would like to have everyone to get back on track here. The topic of this thread is longer battles due to various changes so that strategy is more promoted and other reasons.
This is not about how the balance is or how to generally fix this. EpicDuel balance has plenty of threads for everyone to discuss how to improve the balance in EpicDuel.
Any further off-topic posts will be deleted.




Seteriel -> RE: Quality for quantity. A fair trade? (4/22/2014 4:07:29)

This is just personal opinion:
I don't think that longer battles are the way to increase balance and/or strategy. The battles already are long - a 2v2 in the lvl 40s can last up to 10 minutes and more.
Also, icreasing the HP and EP by a factor of n, without increasing the damage by a factor of m (lets say, n/2), would probably just make the battles last longer without leading to more strategy - and leave to more disconnecting players due to lag.
I think that more diversitiy is needed to increase strategy.

Strategy is about the possibility to select out of numerous choice options.
So, to get more choices, the classes need more skills and item cores. Or even additional classes (peek at AQW and other Artix games, adapt some classes and add additional skills to them). With them the players can design different builds, counters to certain builds, fun builds, unique builds, etc.
While str-hp builds might still create large pressure, with more and different skills to choose from, smart players could design new/more builds - with the players who copied the str-hp builds also move over to the new builds, the build designers could now again switch to different builds. Leading to a loop until there are many different builds in use.
Something like in the business world, where you have trend setters that buy the new stuff, and as soon as they see the "new" things (mobile phones are a basic example) are common with many people, the trend setters again look for even newer things. With at some point the "copy cats" not able to keep up buying the newer items anymore.
In theory at least the option to choose from a large variety usually leads to diversity, also outside the business world.




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