=ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (Full Version)

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WhiteTiger -> =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 13:22:25)

quote:

[image]http://epicduel.artix.com/images/icon/Nightwraith_ED-DN_2011.jpg[/image]
April 20, 2016
EpicDuel State of the Game Report
[image]http://www.epicduel.com/images/cms/epicduel-exe.jpg[/image]
Howdy!

A few months ago, I made a huge post about the status of BioBeasts and the future of EpicDuel. I explained that BioBeasts would still need more attention for features and fixes, and the best course of action for EpicDuel would be investigating a downloadable client to future-proof the game against the dwindling support of the Flash plugin.

Here we are, several months later. How did we do? BioBeasts has seen a substantial uptick in installations from the time of that old post.

[image]http://www.epicduel.com/images/cms/BB-growth-chart.jpg[/image]

This chart represents the steady increase in total installs of BioBeasts on Android since launch. While we would have obviously liked to see those numbers climb much higher much sooner, we’re encouraged that the the installation rate has been steadily increasing despite little advertising for BioBeasts outside the AE network. A steady climb is generally a healthier chart for sustained growth than a steep spike that drops off quickly.

Wait!” you may think. “Why haven’t you advertised?”

Advertising is INCREDIBLY expensive. Mega-hit games like Clash of Clans can justify spending millions on hiring famous actors for Super Bowl commercials because they know empirically that for every dollar they spend, they’ll get much more from each player they gain. BioBeasts doesn’t yet have the features or content to make such a huge investment, but we are nearly there. We’ve made great strides since launch to add features that boost retention, but we still need to improve monetization in order to justify such an investment. Over the past few months, we’ve built leaderboards, new beasts, survival mode, and (soon) cloud saving, but with each new feature, we brainstorm a dozen more based on player feedback and our own experiences.

As with every game, enthusiastic players have given us an endless wish-list of features from PvP to upgradeable beasts to new attack options and more. Our initial projection of early April for BioBeasts being feature complete was ambitious. Given the added complexity, the update process with mobile is much slower than the browser games we’re used to.

Just to give you an idea, BioBeasts is supported on over 10,000 devices on Android! Each devices brings with it a unique set of challenges, including differences in resolution and hardware.

[image]http://www.epicduel.com/images/cms/BB-android-devices.jpg[/image]

Game developers at all levels are notoriously inaccurate at estimating the time costs of features. A lot has to do with the amount of unknowns involved in tackling something completely new:

A perfect example occurred recently when we received notice from Apple that we needed to implement changes to BioBeasts cloud saving functionality as soon as possible. This news performed an epic table-flip maneuver on our timeline and sidetracked the development of other important features and improvements. Such events are nearly impossible to anticipate.

What does this mean? BioBeasts development will continue until we are completely satisfied with the state of the game. At that point, we will conduct a large-scale marketing campaign to put it in front of as many eyeballs as possible. That will be the best chance the game has to fully succeed. Our immediate priority is cloud saving. Many players have indicated they are hesitant to play until they can be assured their progress will be safe. We understand that the mobile marketplace is extremely competitive so our window of opportunity to promote a feature complete iteration of BioBeasts is small. We are by no means operating at a “leisurely” development pace.

Key areas we’re looking to improve include:
  • Increase download conversion rate of users landing on App Store / Play Store pages
  • Improve player retention rates at 1, 7, and 30 days
  • Increase number of play sessions per day
  • Increase purchase conversion rate

    In the meantime, the best long-term direction for EpicDuel remains a downloadable client to future-proof against the dwindling reach of Flash. Another massive, Omega-scope overhaul would be exciting, but would both 1) have a massive time requirement and 2) not address the platform problems of Flash. EpicDuel 2 would also be exciting, but it also wouldn’t address the outstanding issues of EpicDuel.

    On that front, we’ve actually had some recent successes. This week, Titan and Yorumi managed to create working prototypes for client versions of AQW and EpicDuel.

    A preview of the client version of EpicDuel.

    This is big news because it means 1) EpicDuel will be future-proof against the death of Flash, 2) we can potentially be supported by a robust, popular platform like Steam, and 3) the client may even perform better than the current browser version! We remain cautiously optimistic on this project as there are still many unanswered questions and rework required to get the games to 100% functionality (older games written in AS 2 may have more trouble converting), but it’s progressing well and seems to have the most potential of all solutions we investigated.

    [image]http://www.epicduel.com/images/cms/gaddagofas.jpg[/image]
    A downloadable version of EpicDuel could, indeed, go fas.

    I wish I could say, “Get ready for EpicDuel Zeta!” or “EpicDuel 2 2016” and get applause and excited emojis from the forums and Twitter, but I can’t. We remain committed to the long-term success and development of EpicDuel, but BioBeasts will continue to hold the majority of our development focus for the near future. The bottom line is BioBeasts’ success is the best chance EpicDuel has for a bright future. Despite this turbulent present, we will do everything we can to ensure EpicDuel and BioBeasts can be enjoyed by players for years to come!

    Tags: Nightwraith




  • Digital X -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 13:25:52)

    How would a downloadable version benefit though? You'd still need to have an internet connection to download updates and play on Servers.

    I'm really not understanding this at all.

    A tl;dr would be great thanks.

    Also is this downloadable version a trial and error run or more of a commitment and "we WILL be doing this" ?




    RKC -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 16:12:43)

    And thus marks the end of browsers.




    Lord Machaar -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 16:38:01)

    Well, at least I'm more satisfied about the way devs are currently dealing with the community.
    They come straight at you, nothing special is coming ahead, that's it, BB will require more work, and as I mentioned before, the 40 - 60 days turns out to be 5 - 6 months because I have been playing ED long enough to tell you how they work.

    So there isn't really any reason for anyone to complain, devs made their decision to move on, so must players, they whether move on and search for another game/gaming platform, or stick to the game. Just if you going to stick, you must know what you are sticking for that is, and not complain if you don't see anything new.




    Altador987 -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 18:23:18)

    straightforward and to the point... suppose this is what we're stuck with for a while




    The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 18:43:07)

    Well they could simply bring back Flags and let us have some fun instead of being bored 24/7 with a repetitive war system




    Battle Elf -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 19:22:08)

    @Digi

    Adobe Flash is considered unsafe by many. If we wake up one morning and Flash is no longer supported by browsers, no one gets to play EpicDuel. Creating a client version protects us from that. You would still needed to be connected to the internet.

    Other benefits of switching over to client include better performance (hopefully) and to possibly engage new players who are gaming on Steam, instead of browsers (this is a lot of people).




    rejaylob -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 23:03:59)

    How in the world would they not support flash in browsers. That would mean NO YOUTUBE, NO FLASH GAMES for kids like miniclip, y8, ect.

    Thats just impossible.




    WhiteTiger -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/21/2016 23:46:19)

    ^YouTube hasn't been using flash since January 2015 and Google has already ended support for flash ads. Adobe, the developer of Flash, has even renamed Adobe Flash Professional to Adobe Animate with the latest release of Creative Cloud, signalling their intentions to deprecate Flash soon.




    SouL Prisoner -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/22/2016 0:51:34)

    The only impression NW left with this post is *BB is our last mobile game and we will go to our graves while still "developing it". Screw ED, the game that is funding all their $#!^ . And apparently BB is the saviour. Ya sure, you wish.

    Client.exe is a good news, but what's the point of preserving a broken toy??




    One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/22/2016 8:36:34)

    @Soul what's the point of fixing a toy for it to be obsolete in as short a time as next month? A working client is currently the best way to preserve all AE games and once they are future proofed they can resume working on them. Without fear of it becoming a wasted effort




    SouL Prisoner -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/22/2016 9:31:14)

    ^"Next month" quote from the previous month. If not fulfilled, read again. -.- Everyday delay in fixing the game is a damage to the it's reputation. New comers that gets frustrated due to the imbalance, once quit not coming back and neither recommending others to play.

    quote:

    but BioBeasts will continue to hold the majority of our development focus for the near future.


    Doesn't sound like like a month to me. Honestly, instead of trying to convince players with false promises, it's best to be blunt open. So the ones that are quitting can do in peace and waiters can wait forever.




    One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/22/2016 13:37:56)

    The quote that actually holds the information you are looking for is "when BioBeasts is feature complete." As NW in this design note not all of the things delaying the return to EpicDuel are within their control so timelines are estimates at best and should be taken with a grain of salt




    8x -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/22/2016 14:28:06)

    quote:

    The only impression NW left with this post is *BB is our last mobile game and we will go to our graves while still "developing it". Screw ED, the game that is funding all their $#!^

    If I had to guess, I'd say ED is keeping itself running, while AQW is funding all their stuff.




    SouL Prisoner -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/23/2016 6:53:28)

    ^ In terms of monkey making AQW makes the most, but since ED Dev's are the one working on BB, saying that seems logical.




    Remorse -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/24/2016 6:43:48)

    Interesting news.

    I hope the development of a downloadable version of ED also includes a huge game play overhaul and consider the things that worked well in the past and perhaps removing things that didn't work so well.

    Pay to win advantage was an important thing to remove in the bast however I think they missed an opportunity to keep the varium items have exclusive cosmetic advantage.


    They also need to have a deep look at how turns play out in games and how cores can add to variety but at the same time keep builds unique with clear upsides and downsides which smarter players can use to their advantage.


    To many games have made the mistake of making classes too similar and how that has been disaster for variety the overall feel just take a look at blizzard's WoW. Don't make the same mistakes.

    Good luck with future development.,





    One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/24/2016 8:49:49)

    @remorse the client is going to be the same game we have currently. Everything you stated could come after but they won't be bundled in the same update




    King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/24/2016 22:24:14)

    If you wish to be supported by Steam, I'd say go for it as I've already been on Steam since the decline of ED. There's generally a LARGE community out there you can probably get but one thing that devs would be watching out for are Steam reviews from other players. Not just popular ones but also ones that address problems in the game, early-access and long-term gameplay.




    goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/25/2016 15:48:10)

    quote:

    be watching out for are Steam reviews from other players. Not just popular ones but also ones that address problems in the game, early-access and long-term gameplay.

    This is something I mentioned before when I heard they might try Steam.
    ED in its current state, would get wrecked in reviews.
    While they could go on to fix mistakes or somehow someway make the game a lot better, I doubt the majority of the reviewers would go back to update their review.

    I still think their best option right now is start a new game from scratch and give bonuses (i.e. ported art, weps, etc) to ED players to quickly establish a player base and go from there.
    But they'd need another addition to the staff team, someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to balance and other decisions.

    Perhaps they could add some more story elements if they aren't confident in just a PvP game.




    Digital X -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/26/2016 7:23:25)

    The other downside regarding Steam in the comments/feedback in the discussion forum for the games is the spam.

    Granted games have pinned topics regarding updates and release information which is all well and good, but there could also be (and more than likely) "free varium follow this link" and all type of spam clogging it up.

    "This game is bad" "I want Gamma/insert Phase here etc" will be thrown around quite a bit I imagine. There's going to be an endless stream of those topics and it will be a mess. I know game devs on the discussion boards can lock threads but never seen one actually removed when I have followed it, and that's for the AAA games..

    Don't get me wrong, expanding onto different, standalone clients as opposed to a web browser and online forums is good, but the consequences could negate that to some extent.




    Xendran -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/26/2016 8:47:22)

    @Digi X: Heavy moderation of steam forums will get a game basically blacklisted by the internet.
    I don't think AE should even touch the steam forums, because if they try to enforce policies anywhere even remotely close to as strict as they are here they will generate immense amounts of bad PR.

    Also, when you guys do try to go on steam remember that steam reviews have a very drastic effect on a game's potential for success. If you guys don't do this properly, or don't fix the gameplay mechanics, expect to get destroyed by reviews.
    Considering the general image that most gamers have of AE, this is going to have to be done well if any new market is to be reached.

    You don't want to be known on steam for being the guys who made "That bad port of some broken flash game that had ridiculous prices on everything" and sitting there with your review score at Mostly Negative.
    I want this game to be able to succeed, especially after following it for so long and knowing where and why it failed and I just hope they don't make the same mistakes again, only this time in a marketplace that is not a walled garden the way AE currently is.

    ---

    NOTE: The below looks like a rant complaining about Pay2Win, it's not really. It's more explaining WHY Pay2Win is hated, why Pay2Win was mostly phased out of EpicDuel and to help people see why if ED comes back on steam to not expect any Pay2Win (and if there is pay2win, for them to not expect the game to see any benefit from getting onto steam).

    Fair warning, you're going to get eviscerated on steam if you put this game, a PVP game, on steam while still containing the 1-Year Varium exclusivity model.
    I'm serious, your reviews will get absolutely slaughtered if you try to carry this over, and you can bet you'll see the front page of /r/games.
    To some of the younger or less experienced people here, me saying that about /r/games sounds absurd and like something that doesn't matter at all. However, to anyone who knows the power of social media, how quickly it proliferates, the strength of the internet hate machine, and the history (especially recent history) of games, their market, and their journalism, you will understand why it's a very rash action to launch a port of a flash game onto steam if it has a business model that people on steam and reddit have shown time and time again to completely and utterly despise.

    I'm not sure if a lot of people on this forum are aware of this, but games with business models like the old epicduel are the reason that Free2Play is a stigmatized term now. People assume less of F2P, assume P2W will be present (or some sort of barrier that makes not paying non-viable if you want to play the game as intended and in an enjoyable way). People assume they are out to get their money. Why?
    Because they were and are. Epicduel is absolutely nowhere near at the level it used to be, but back in its prime there was often not more than 2 months (often 1) without a new best in slot piece of equipment (or other straight-upgrade super expensive options like Enhancements) being released.

    These are just direct pay walls. You could not ever compete on the same level as paying players. Having the capability of defeating them does not mean it was in any way a fair fight whatsoever.
    This heavily encourages you to buy into a gear set. This seems fine initially, you're level capped, armour doesnt change that much anyway so what could possibly go wrong.
    Not much later, and we're getting updates that require you to pay $50 every 1-3 months in order to be able to keep competing at the same level you just paid for.
    This is like a subscription, because if you do not have competitive gear, you are literally not playing the same game. The ability to compete being 100% locked behind a repeated paywall in a non subscription game is acceptable only in card games, and is inherent to their nature. In order to offset this, the makers of the most successful TCG and CCGs time their expansions in a way that wealthy players will not constantly and vastly outpace people who cannot pay (or can pay less) before having ample time to catch up. Non TCG and CCG games that wish to add expansions of gear will either make that gear available without cash, or will split their PVP pool into expansion and non-expansion. Also, generally the expansion is a bit more content than a $50 sword.

    EpicDuel back in the day was the perfect example of this. You absolutely had to be well off or be living with well off parents to be able to afford to keep up with this game at a competitive level. As we transitioned from Beta to Gamma, this got worse and worse, with better and better gear being released so fast (remember that this is a PVP game) that 95% of the other gear of the same level in the game was totally obsolete.

    Except here's the kicker, it's a hidden subscription that hooks you in with Free to Play. And now, you've just had your ability to play the game at the same level taken away from you after 1 month, and can only be obtained with real money. One of the nasty parts about this is it directly hits you with the sunk cost fallacy. You've already invested so much into your character, but now it's garbage so you pay the $50 becuase you've already put so much into the character it would be a waste to let it get outdated (and if you quit you feel like you "wasted" that money). The real nasty part and one of the biggest fuels on the hate fire of that kind of strictly-Pay2win business model: It targets young children and addicts, the most vulnerable and least responsible people out there. In this case, they are even more vulnerable than the elderly for a number of reasons (Although the elderly are certainly not spared of the lure of these tactics either). These are some very good reasons that EpicDuel moved away from this model, however there is also a valid and unfortunate reason that they were not able to fully abandon it (which honestly i think they wish they were able to have done instead of the necessary half-measure).


    In all honesty, I fully believe the developers understand the situation they are in with regards to Varium. Convincing the existing playerbase to go along with a model that offers absolutely no PVP benefits, but purely cosmetic and convenience ones, that may be their biggest challenge because they absolutely need those initial people in there to help bolster a release in order to pull fresh players.

    In the end my main concern is the number of people that will try to justify to themselves with various little nuances and minute details about specific builds and matches and counters as to why this or that year-exclusive varium item being cash only for a year isn't pay2win.
    Even if you can justify it to yourself though, the fact that you have to stretch this far in order to *maybe* start to convince a person intimately familiar with the details of epicduel as to why it's not pay2win, using those details as reasoning, that is not going to matter at all to the new player who knows nothing about this game and just sees a cool turn based pvp game on steam. They just see that the game sells powerful cash items that you can only get with cash for a year. People HATE that, and they don't have all the info about the details and balance and the meta to make the decision as to it not being Pay2Win. The default (and correct) mindset here is to assume it is indeed pay2win. Many people will simply log off a game and never try it if they see this, including me. Sounds funny to say this considering who I am in regards to this game, but the Xendran of 2016 would have never even given EpicDuel a chance purely based on the business model alone, let alone actually play it like the Xendran of 2010 did so eagerly.

    The number of people in the general gaming community that would see "1 year cash exclusive" and then just immediately log off of their character before doing their first battle would be devastating.

    I really hope this point gets through to a lot of people here, because while I really don't want to sound disrespectful when I say this, but this community is very much a walled garden, and a disproportionately large number of the opinions on these forums are in extreme contrast with those held by the general gaming population. I know a lot of this has to do with age, because the very young people with us don't delve into the mindsets of behind why things are the way they are in a game, they don't fully concept the grasp of a game company being a business, the priorities of running a business, existing studies about business practices that have been done. They generally don't have the pool of tertiary knowledge (especially on important relevant and applicable concepts like the Sunk Cost Fallacy, Strawman arguments and other logical fallacies, and the Skinner Box, etc.) and life experience to pull from, and thus will unknowingly defend something because the power they get from it makes them feel good, and they are generally either not in charge of the money that was spent and do not have a real concept of how much money they are or aren't spending.

    This is not to say anything negative about the young people here, they just simply aren't equipped (and are not far enough in life to have any reason to be yet) to see the bigger picture on a subject like this, especially when it comes to the real-world impact of angering an amalgamation of users like steam and/or reddit.(for the most part. There are some exceptions created by extreme circumstances, or extremely good parenting in regards to teaching your children budgeting and value of both products and time) and aren't far enough in life to have any incentive to be equipped to understand why




    martinsen5 -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/26/2016 10:39:51)

    Solid points made by Xendran, recommend everyone to read his long wall of text! That aside, I've been hoping for a client version of ED for a while considering it could reach an audience on Steam. But changes would have to be made for sure, since no one's going to bother with your game after reading negative reviews.




    Altador987 -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/26/2016 11:29:40)

    @ Xendran
    You bring up an extremely good point, as i also remember how ED used to be with varium it was almost impossible to win as a novarium player and i refused to even buy it till much later in order to change a class because i'm too prideful to feel like i won based upon money. I've noticed it's become less desirable even in aqw where literally everyone wins. Becoming a legend isn't all that exciting especially when you come to the realization that everything you worked for was only for rent for as long as your membership lasts. You can't even keep what you earned so why bother?

    ... if they were to do this they'd most certainly need to balance the classes out before such a large player base was to join otherwise ED would be trashed, which is a shame as it has so much potential to be a classic pvp game




    Xendran -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/26/2016 11:50:36)

    One thing for sure is I'm certain the general gaming public will not like overlapping skills, considering the kinds of games we've seen teams with much less manpower and funding with AE put together.
    Two non contextual animations per skill. Nightwraith is great with art, so I'm guessing the bottleneck here is the actual balance and design process, which is part of why I say ED badly needs a designer.

    A lot of you guys, and me included in the past, talk of the balance team.
    Nah. There needs to be a game designer dev (and balancing is a part of being a designer. Designer is a specific role by the way, and is not a position like Director).
    A specialized game designer who has knowledge of the genre, experience deconstructing and analyzing massive amounts of games (including those of the applicable genre). One who is actually well learned in design.
    In fact, the way the devs went about managing and handling the requests and data of their balance team (and the outcome of it) really does show a clear lack of anyone on the team having design training (Game design, not art design).

    Right now you have programmers and artists doing your game design.
    As you'd expect, it went about as well as having an artist write all of your code.
    There's no reason to think that you should be able to 'just make' a game, or that you can just wing it and continue to be successful without the cracks in your system becoming very obvious.

    I understand not having a designer at the start. You were fully independent and may have not realized the significance of what a designer actually does.
    So both being new and a lack of funding. Totally understandable.
    But it's been over half a decade now, your official paid team has doubled and you have a number of volunteers.
    By going this long without someone somewhere making some call to get a designer on the ED team despite this, what other message does it really send to players other than "Balance is the lowest priority"?
    And if you guys notice, it absolutely is the lowest priority. They don't delay "content" (Using this term loosely) in order to handle prominent balance issues. This has always been the trend, how many times can you think of that a balance or gameplay change was pushed back because otherwise we would have to "wait longer" for the "new content". This is unprecedented in PVP games, and ED is the only PVP game I have ever played that prioritizes in this fashion.

    ---

    TL;DR1: You wouldn't let an artist write your code, so why are programmers and artists trying to do the job of a game designer that they are not trained for?
    TL;DR2: ED has historically always had balance updates at the bottom of the priority list since at least gamma. Beta was more in between.

    Both of these things are completely unprecedented for a competitive PVP game and need to change.
    Not "I want them to change because I think I would like the game more" type of need.
    The "I don't want to see you continue on this downward spiral, and steam users will destroy your current product the way it is."


    ---

    In regards to the client being paid or free, I wouldn't expect a paid client unless all the assets were remade. People on steam (and likely everywhere) would go nuts at paying for a 1:1 port of a free flash game that also has varium.




    Altador987 -> RE: =ED= April 20th, 2016 - EpicDuel State of the Game Report (4/26/2016 15:26:39)

    Honestly if they wanted to give abandaid fix for the balancing the classes they could have the overlapping skills have separate damages/requirements/bases. for instance multi for cy hunters doesn't have do the same damage it could do more or less or be off of strength (why isn't there a multi off strength? maybe bm's could have theirs off that). but it would least give players SOMETHING for the time being until they could truly make each class its own.




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