Elementals (Full Version)

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Chaosweaver Amon -> Elementals (11/4/2017 18:04:05)

Throughout the entire world of Dragonfable, our character has been exposed to numerous types of Elementals, each with their own strengths and limitations. When discussing possibilities for who and/or what Dove is, many different theories came up regarding how Elementals are able to survive outside of their natural planes, and to what extent does it limit them.

What sort of questions or theories about Elementals do you have? Where are the best situations about Elementals found in-game? Discuss!




Greyor_42 -> RE: Elementals (11/4/2017 19:31:49)

Well, my understanding about the more basic elementals that we encounter in Lore, is that they are very akin to various types of wild animal in behavior(for example, wolves, or lions, or other pack/herd animals) in that they seem to live in large groups, and tend to be mostly passive towards humans unless given some incentive to not be(their territory is encroached upon, the "alpha" of their group decides to order them to attack nearby human, or just general agitation from their element being put in jeopardy, kind of like a panicky animal during a forest fire). though, depending on what class of elemental they are, they have also shown a varying degree of intelligence. i'd say that the basic elementals are the more pack animal type, the "guardian" elementals(the ones that gave us primal power for water, earth, and fire, and other non-avatar level elementals that have spoken) are equivalent to tribal humans, and avatar level elementals(the avatars and whatever kids they might have, like ash's princess) are human in behavior and intelligence, or even beyond.




dragon_monster -> RE: Elementals (11/4/2017 19:42:33)

In one of Nythera's quests with her as an child http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=14849024 she had an discussion with one of the elementals there and it was an intelligent discussion with them. The point is the shape of the elemental there was exactly like mos other elemental of their kind we see and fight there is no physical difference trough which I want to imply that there are all beyond the intelligence of any being that is not an human that of course is withing varying degrees also.




Da Awesomancer -> RE: Elementals (11/4/2017 19:49:38)

I certainly wouldn't call anything child Nythera said an "intelligent conversation," but the elementals Nythera talked to (I think they were the Prime Elementals you can fight in the Elemental Foothills) were indeed intelligent.




Vardius -> RE: Elementals (11/4/2017 23:51:12)

I am primarily wondering what are the Avatars are doing with the Rose on the rise...




TimeKiller -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 1:24:21)

id imagine they just didn't care enough to do anything cuz they could crush the rose like insects under foot




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 2:22:43)

^I'd imagine they don't care enough about much of anything other than being petty, given that the only time they've ever seen fit to intervene in our time is when a teenager insulted them.




Da Awesomancer -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 8:38:15)

The Avatars probably won't care up until the Rose does something severely damaging to the planet's magic, or makes fun of them. They have a bad habit of never doing anything unless their lives or ego are in danger.




Steel_King -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 12:51:15)

With the exception of Warlic, and maybe Kathool, the Avatars are the undisputed top dogs in Lore. Remember that even when Kid Nythera was beating up the Prime Elementals and calling out the Avatars, they didn't intervene. She wasn't a threat. Sure, it irritated them, but she wasn't a genuine danger. They only intervened when she stole Warlic's power and added it to her own, giving her some bite behind the bark. At that point, it wasn't them being petty, it was them defending themselves and the elemental balance. Pride may have come into it, but it was a much lesser reason than is attributed.

As it currently is, the Rose poses no substantial threat to them or the balance. If they start chaining elementals though...

When it comes to elemental intelligence, there seems to be a connection between power and sophistication. Cause and effect have not been determined, but the correlation exists.

Rough tiers of intelligence/reasoning/power:

1. Human or greater intelligence: [Class A]

Seen amongst Avatars, Infernals, Ash's Princess, Yonathan, and (what we assume) are the Prime Elementals. Dominant in almost any situation. Strong degree of influence over lesser elementals.
These are all beings with distinct personalities, capable of conversation and self-determination.

2. Sub-human intelligence: [Class B]

Seen amongst things like the Bassault and Wormwood. Appears to be roughly capable of primitive decisions. Dominant in hierarchy amongst local elementals. May have some influence over them.
No distinct personalities (save aggressivity?), but seemingly capable of following basic commands without mandatory magical enforcement. (Kind of like goblins in many S&S novels.)

3. Animalistic intelligence: [Class C]

Seen amongst typical elementals, such as Slimes. Behaves much like an animal, with roughly delineated territory and high aggression towards unusual intruders (in natural state). Highly vulnerable to magical coercion, and will obey commands from almost any greater like-element power. Seems to exist passively unless excited by intruder or greater power. No distinct personality.




Da Awesomancer -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 13:24:23)

Nythera didn't provoke the Avatars until she had stolen Warlic's magic, that was when they invaded Lore and blew up Falconreach. The Avatar's also made it quite clear that the reason they were fighting wasn't because Nythera was a danger, but because they didn't like seeing an inferior being claim to be on par with themselves.

As for the Rose, they already chain elementals. I only remember seeing more physical ones, like Nature Elementals, being chained, but the Rose has already managed to enslave them. As such, it's not too hard to believe that they will eventually become enough of a problem for the Avatar's to actually do something.




OpprobriousPinecones -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 13:30:20)

I'd like to note that, while elementals are...well, elementals, it seems that Mana also has elementals, as we can see in several quest. It seems that mana can be considered an element of sorts, even if it isn't a conventional one. Given this, do you all think it's too much of a stretch to assume that there may be an elemental plane of Mana, and possibly an Avatar?

I'm also curious as to what the source of the Void elementals are, though Void isn't really an element, if what we can gather from the Nythera quests is true. I personally have a theory that the Void is either an incomplete Elemental Plane that never properly developed and meshed with the rest of the universe; or possibly an elemental plane that somehow crossed over from an entirely different universe, or maybe even dimension. Though I don't want to get off topic; this is a thread on the elementals, after all.

I'm also not sure what I could gather from the Avatar Of Time's existence. It does seem to be a non-canon class, though I picked up an interesting fact at the Inn At The Edge Of Time's spoiler character; "The true Avatar Of Time is always watching."




Da Awesomancer -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 13:44:47)

I've always assumed that the Mana Elementals are untyped in nature, in that they are living magic that lacks an elemental alignment. I could be entirely wrong, but that always seemed to be the most reasonable explanation to me.

As for the Void, my guess is that it's Lore's mirror world, a plane of existence that acts as Lore's balance, explaining why messing with the Void Core could wipe out all life on Lore. Because of this, the Void itself could be a fusion between Lore and the Elemental Planes, acting as an amalgam of everything that makes up the real world, as well as an inverse.

That would make Void a fusion of every element, with the exception of Bacon which wasn't part of the world's creation, which explains the weakness to Bacon.




GammaCavy -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 17:54:26)

That "True Avatar of Time" is probably the big honking time dragon at the edge of the void, watching everything that takes place in the Inn. Also the true form of the AQW hero.




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: Elementals (11/5/2017 18:36:47)

quote:

With the exception of Warlic, and maybe Kathool, the Avatars are the undisputed top dogs in Lore. Remember that even when Kid Nythera was beating up the Prime Elementals and calling out the Avatars, they didn't intervene. She wasn't a threat. Sure, it irritated them, but she wasn't a genuine danger. They only intervened when she stole Warlic's power and added it to her own, giving her some bite behind the bark. At that point, it wasn't them being petty, it was them defending themselves and the elemental balance. Pride may have come into it, but it was a much lesser reason than is attributed.

Sorry, that argument falls apart when you look at the rest of the game and not just that one situation. There have been multiple times that the world has been endangered and the elemental balance wildly disrupted, and the Avatars did nothing. To give one example, let me quote Jaania in regards to the devastation that the whole Wargoth incident did to the elemental balance:

quote:

Jaania: They were irresponsible, hurtful, driven the world into an unbalanced chaos.
...
Jaania: Look. Look at what you've done. The forest is on fire. Cities are flooding. Winds blow others apart.




Kyros127 -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 3:16:03)

@Sakurai the Cursed

quote:

Sorry, that argument falls apart when you look at the rest of the game and not just that one situation. There have been multiple times that the world has been endangered and the elemental balance wildly disrupted, and the Avatars did nothing. To give one example, let me quote Jaania in regards to the devastation that the whole Wargoth incident did to the elemental balance:


I'd hazard a guess that's cuz the Avatars were outmatched and they knew. Remember Fiamme was already subjugated by Wargoth prior to that point. Intervening would have likely been a pointless gesture at that stage. Why bother showing up if your just gonna lose anyway? Remember the Avatars aren't exactly selfless heroes who are willing to lay down their lives even though they know they have no chance at winning.

I'd say that situation differs from when Nythera stole Warlic's power. The Avatars knew they had a fair chance at beating her and they did just that.




Vanilla Icecream -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 3:44:45)

^ It's been too long since I've played the chapter so I could be wrong, but I thought Fiamme was only controlled because she was the avatar of Fire. IIRC, even then, Fiamme was able to fight his control over her? him? it? enough so that we could fight her/him/it.
If the Avatars of Ice or Water had intervened, a lot of destruction may have been prevented.




Cherubic Card -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 4:10:57)

@Vanilla Icecream
Well, Wargoth's predilection towards fire certainly didn't hurt things, but Xan specifically states later in Book 2 that it was a result of the dissonance that Fiamme was able to be possessed, from not only Fire's Great Dragon being slain, but also the Fire Orb being entirely lost, in addition to being corrupted in the hands of Seplechure before that point. Admittedly, I'd have to replay it to get the complete picture again, but I believe the biggest factors to Fire and Ice's weakening were due to the deaths of their Great Dragons, Akriloth and Cryozen respectively.




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 4:20:18)

@Kyros127 - Well, they actually didn't, she just overloaded on mana because she didn't know how Warlic's magic works. If she had known she could've beaten them, since Warlic did, and the Avatars surely couldn't have known whether she had mastered it yet as they didn't even know she was using Warlic's magic. If anything, that was one of the riskier times they could've acted, given that she had stolen the power of the one person they knew who could take on all of them at once and she clearly had no qualms about defeating them and taking their power. But that's beside the point really, as again they didn't know.

You're right that they may have been outmatched in that case, although as Vanilla Icecream said I think Wargoth dominated Fiamme because she's a Fire Spirit in particular (and as Cherubic Card said, an extremely weakened one at that due to the poor state of Lore's Fire element), I doubt he could've done so with any of the others. Either way, in the end people far less powerful than the Avatars (except our titan dragon, which is stated to be about as strong as an avatar, or even stronger when primal) managed to successfully enact a plan to stop Wargoth, which is a good demonstration of the notion that even if they couldn't have beaten him outright, that doesn't mean they couldn't have helped to avert the elemental catastrophe. Imagine if the Avatars, Kyanos and Neso in particular, had assaulted Wargoth from afar during our battle to distract him for example, I'm pretty sure they could've made a big difference. I'm not saying they should step in and resolve everything themselves, putting themselves at risk of dying and upsetting the elemental balance even further, but when they can't be bothered to do anything at all when the balance it's their job to protect and even the entire world is on the line, yet come running when someone very powerful insults them (and like Da Awesomancer said, they made it pretty clear in that quest that it was pride motivating them), clearly there are some ego issues they need to work through.

So basically, if you want the Avatars to help with the Rose, just trick Jaania into challenging them. It shouldn't even be very hard, she probably already doesn't think much of them.




Kyros127 -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 7:32:39)

@Sakurai the Cursed

quote:

Khazri: You cannot win a battle against us. There was only one who could have been called our equal on this planet and he is now gone.


Khazri straight up states that the Avatars only considered Warlic their equal. My previous wording was a bit off. They didn't have definite knowledge that they could beat Nythera they simply "believed" that they could. They may not have believed the same about the situation with Wargoth.




Grandpa Oz -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 15:41:09)

There's also a chance that the Avatars are intervening in times of severe crisis, but only subtly in the background. For example, the Avatar of Water intervened against Isathaara, but only in a very indirect way:

quote:

Kuli-ana: Despite our belief in our security at the depths of the ocean, Isathaara came to our underwater city, much to our surprise.
Kuli-ana: The destruction wrought was beyond belief. Many people, trapped in cages of ice, were lost. It was this event which set things into motion.
Kuli-ana: The Avatar of Water, who had long maintained a neutral state on the issue, realized the danger and chose to act.
Kuli-ana: It was she who proposed that each would protect their own domain. The gates were commissioned, and placed across Lore...
Kuli-ana: ... both above and below the surface. The most secure gate was to be the water gate.


For instance, we don't actually know if there was no subtle intervention against Wargoth - sure, they didn't take him on frontally, but that would've been stupid anyway. For a planet-shredding monster, Wargoth didn't quite get around to all that much overall, so who knows if there wasn't something going on in the background.




Steel_King -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 15:50:27)

There have been only a few events at the "elemental-apocalypse" level:

1. SMUDD

The Avatars were outclassed and they knew it. If it was beyond Warlic's power, it was certainly beyond theirs. It took the power of the World Destroyer fused with an Ultimate Elemental Orb to defeat it, AND at the same time SMUDD was applying enough force at Falconreach to manabreak Warlic into Wargoth. The Avatars are not selfless, so they won't get into a fight there is no hope of winning.

2. Wargoth

It seems widely accepted that Warlic is, at the very least, a match for the Avatars. Why would they go head-to-head with his no-holds-barred demonic alter-ego? We were only able to distract him because he was fighting a war both mentally and physically, and thus couldn't bring all his power to bear. Ultimately it was actually the fusion that won us the day. We could never have actually defeated Wargoth, and neither could the partially weakened Avatars.


Now, to talk about Nythera. She had the power of Warlic, and challenged the Avatars. They step in, and she is defeated. Yes, they were definitely angry at her presumption, but it is worth remembering that as a child, she openly says that she is better than the elements. The Avatars are the literal expressions of the elements. Saying you're better than Earth and then pounding a Prime Earth Elemental probably won't make Temblor happy, but Temblor then doesn't go out and paste Kid Nythera. When Nythera IS a valid threat and then MAKES a valid threat, THAT'S when they start laying down the law.

quote:

Warlic had no idea how to properly use his power. Fire, wind, water, earth. All will bow to my will.


Pretty good reason.
I mean... pettiness aside. The Avatars can be pretty shallow.






dragon_monster -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 16:43:33)

So maybe we are looking at this the wrong way there not afraid for themselves but for their subjects they do seem to have some sort of monarcy there with avatar being king and other other ranks.
Think about it what will happen if you go against Wargoth and he overcharges the planet goes boom with the avatars also and their planes they will die their subjects will die their children will die. The more you ave the more cautious you become. Their inactive not because of malice but but love for their people.
Of course why did they not care about this in the avatar sage well they did why would they not attack someone who can be an threat to them far from their own plane against who they knew they had an chance to win you know one ting is to fight an mage old an experienced who can control its powers to an extent and an girl who can not?

Oh and the prime elements kid Nytera beat seem to look exactly as any other elemental of their kind I say there just average elementals.





Divine Nexus -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 19:20:32)

A question that has been raised in relation to the Doom Weapons is "How do Elementals maintain themselves on Lore"? It is a valid question, considering how fragile the Darkness Spirits are supposed to be. I would posit that there is some sort of difference between the standard Elementals and Elemental Spirits. What this difference actually is, however, is the real question.

I would theorize that perhaps the Elementals we face as standard enemies were born on Lore, either spawned from elemental magic in the area (such as Fire Elementals being born from magic permeating a volcano, for example), or being created by a magic user (such as a Pyromancer). Being born on Lore might allow them to retain their forms without being instantly destroyed by their opposing element, while still being quite vulnerable to it. The reason might even be that since they are not born a Plane of one element, they are not "Pure", and as such they are made up of small amounts of every other element.

Elemental Spirits, on the other hand, we know come directly from their respective Elemental Planes, making them "Pure", and as such more vulnerable to their opposing element, this being the reason the Darkness Spirits bound themselves to weapons.

It's entirely possible I'm mistaken when it comes to the origins of standard Elementals, so feel free to correct me. Until then, this is my working theory on the seeming discrepancies between various Elemental types.




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 19:42:16)

^We have an explanation for that actually, the gems we see on elementals are items that they have bound themselves to. So they're not direct manifestations of their true essence like Spirits are, thus they don't have that same vulnerability.

@Steel_King - Hence why I said they could've helped in other ways than going head to head and beating up the threat by themselves... Saying that they won't get involved when the world is on the line because they're not selfless is rather silly, considering if the world ends then they end with it and as I said it's not as if putting themselves directly in the line of fire is the only possibility. And also why I mentioned the elemental balance many times as well, not only apocalyptic threats; it's literally their entire job to protect the balance of the elements on Lore, and yet it was unbalanced to the point that the world was tearing itself apart in elemental chaos (and not only through the two world-ending events, though they definitely did have an impact) with no sign of the Avatars ever doing anything about it. Hell, Sepulchure disguised as a Fire Spirit did more to help by letting us know of Akriloth Jr. than anything we know of the Avatars, other than their original assigning of the Great Dragons and creation of the Prime Orbs.

As for Nythera, they sent millions of elementals, including titan elementals which we've never even seen outside of that war, on an incredibly destructive rampage against the people of Greenguard because someone challenged them. Not even attacked them, just challenged their authority. You really think that's justifiable as defending themselves? I would even go so far as to say that the story wants us to see that they're petty and prideful, because in the Diplomatic Mission quest Lady Celestia tells us that a direct battle could "risk all of Lore facing the same fate as Falconreach" and so asks us to "make them see that there has to be a better way then to answer a child's challenge." And then the Avatars proceed to attack us instead of even listening to our attempts to defuse the situation (as bad as they admittedly were, haha).

Anyway, all that aside, it's certainly possible that Grandpa Oz is right and they do act to help maintain the balance in the background, but this is more about our perception of them; if none of that is ever shown or mentioned, so all we know of them is their prideful and destructive rampage against Nythera, it doesn't paint the prettiest image. That said, there is one period of time where they could reasonably have done a lot to help without us knowing about it, and that's when we were frozen. The whole Elemental Dissonance certainly seems to have died down in that time, and it would make sense for the Avatars to have had a hand in healing it. It's only baseless speculation of course, but if that's the case then I could actually respect their position, stepping in only when the elemental balance is threatening to skew beyond recovery as in the elemental chaos of 1,000 years ago. But I mean, they'd still be incredibly petty for the whole Storm War incident imo.




dragon_monster -> RE: Elementals (11/6/2017 19:43:31)

hmm in the storm war the armies of the avatars where summoned and kept their form. The light princess for sure could keep her form other elementals could for that matter the pyromancer barber also could.




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