Optico's toggle + Celerity (Full Version)

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Ogma -> Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/8/2024 10:29:24)

How does this work now? You pay MRM and BTH to get 50% Lucky Strike for pet, at least the pet receive the buff on its first turn, not the second. But what about the player, does the player still pay the effect on celerity turn because it is toggled on?



CarrionSpike -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/8/2024 11:19:33)

First things first, based on what I've implied from patch notes and my experience, Pet Hypercritical had an issue where its duration was "ticking down" based on player's round (everything that happens up until the monster's turn starts) rather than on the pet's turn. This caused an unintended interaction where if a pet had Celerity (but not necessarily the player; of course this also worked when the player also had celerity), Optico's effect would activate once and then the pet would benefit from the Pet Hypercritical for both Celerity turns. As a matter of fact, Player Hypercritical actually had a similar issue with Player Celerity that was used in combination with the Dragonguard Invocations and Arms of the Dragonguard GGB spells (of course this interaction has been fixed).

Now for your actual question. From what I understand, while you're technically "paying" for both turns of celerity, it depends on what is being used to pay for said effects. For example with an MRM penalty for Celerity turns you effectively only pay once because the monster has to attack to take advantage of that penalty, while with a BtH penalty you're paying on both celerity turns.

Regardless, it should be noted that Optico will activate on both turns of Player Celerity and you end up with x11 Pet Hypercritical for 1 turn so you are benefiting from taking the penalty. I suppose a potential issue here is that Hypercritical stacks power almost infinitely (if the duration of applied effect instance is the same) and doesn't rollover into duration when it hits x10 (statuses like Fear/Daze rollover into duration when they exceed 100% stun rate).



Ogma -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/8/2024 11:53:53)

Oh you're right on the MRM, enemy can't make use of that.

Ah the buff stacks for one turn of pet (instead of +50% Luky strike rate, it's +100% Luky strike rate). Makes sense, thank you.



Sapphire -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/8/2024 12:26:19)

The pet hypercrit is paid for via -8.5 bth and -6 MRM. Because this is active for both player turns, then it should be active for 2 pet turns IMO. I am not sure if on turn 2 of player celerity, they're getting double the penalty or if the same penalty exists.

Either way, it seems to have been decided since player celerity and pet celerity are two different things, that player celerity can't "see" pet celerity to adjust. Meaning They didn't or can't code it to do a check for pet celerity. The condition would look like:

Player celerity doubles the pet hypercrit. But if the pet goes 1x then it's x11, but if the pet goes 2x then each turn gets the +50% each. (I think technically it's 55%, which is why it rounds to 6 and then 11 on this)

So instead of going through all these hoops to handle the hypercrit differently, depending on whether or not the pet is going 1x or 2x, they just made it so it always rolls into the first turn. That's my take, anyway.

This change also made it so when you use something like the Slaymore, which gives 4 rounds of pet hypercrit, that pet celerity removes 2 turns instead of 1. They did the same for Tribal Shaman's pet elempower and the Slaymore's Ice Guest Empowerment. (Shamans came after, and Slaymores even after that)

All of these are targeted nerfs. But it has made for some really cool interactions when combining slaymore, optico, and player-only celerity.



Ogma -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/8/2024 13:01:35)

The thing is, stacking can go in many ways, like you can stack the effect (here the hypercritical) or you can stack the duration, both are valid IMO.

Speaking of stacking, I'm thinking at player turn, you suffer X MRM and Y BTH penalty, but at player celerity turn, you suffer 2*X MRM and Y BTH penalty, so you pay properly for the hypercritical buff. The MRM part should tick one turn of enemy's turn (but goes away on enemy celerity turn if it happens to have celerity, behaving much like the pet hypercritical). But this sounds complicated programing wise probably, it would be easier if enemy is buffed with BTH instead of player suffering MRM loss.



CarrionSpike -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/8/2024 13:25:21)

quote:

Because this is active for both player turns, then it should be active for 2 pet turns IMO. I am not sure if on turn 2 of player celerity, they're getting double the penalty or if the same penalty exists.

For Player Celerity you're getting then penalty on both turns, but you're also applying the effect twice.

quote:

Either way, it seems to have been decided since player celerity and pet celerity are two different things, that player celerity can't "see" pet celerity to adjust. Meaning They didn't or can't code it to do a check for pet celerity.

I don't think that anything was really decided, this is just how the game works. Many statuses have special versions just for pets/guests to be used when necessary (see Pet Paralyze or newer additions like Pet/Guest empowerment). Also there isn't really a need for Player/Pet celerity to "talk" to each other.

quote:

Player celerity doubles the pet hypercrit. But if the pet goes 1x then it's x11, but if the pet goes 2x then each turn gets the +50% each. (I think technically it's 55%, which is why it rounds to 6 and then 11 on this)

Complex stacking rules like this aren't really viable for a number of reasons, mainly because if you make an exception for one thing then it can just spiral out of control (I can imagine that it would end up creating a lot of work for the devs). It would be better to adjust the Hypercritical statuses to halve power and double duration at x10 Hypercritical (+90% LS effective). Also as a note, if you were to split x11 into 2 turns it would be x6 with no rounding. This is because x11 is an effective +100% LS rate, but as a multiplier this needs to be set up as x11 since 10 (base LS rate) x 11 = 110 = 10 + 100, thus x11 (+100% LS rate) split over 2 turns would be x6 (or +50% LS rate) for 2 turns. All of this is because Hypercritical is based on an assumed 10% base LS rate.

quote:

So instead of going through all these hoops to handle the hypercrit differently, depending on whether or not the pet is going 1x or 2x, they just made it so it always rolls into the first turn. That's my take, anyway.

This change also made it so when you use something like the Slaymore, which gives 4 rounds of pet hypercrit, that pet celerity removes 2 turns instead of 1. They did the same for Tribal Shaman's pet elempower and the Slaymore's Ice Guest Empowerment. (Shamans came after, and Slaymores even after that)

All of these are targeted nerfs. But it has made for some really cool interactions when combining slaymore, optico, and player-only celerity.

I wouldn't call these nerfs or even targeted, makes sense for any pet/guest status bugs to be fixed around the time of a bug stat rework, but that's just how I view it. All of the recent changes come down to Pet/Guest effects getting more value than what is being paid for. For example, before the recent changes, with Optico you paid 20% melee for x6 (+50%) LS rate for 1 turn, but then with Pet Celerity you benefited from that twice without paying for it, even if you also had player Celerity active. Effects like these are calculated to be active for a certain number of Pet/Guest turns, not Pet/Guest rounds or player turns. All effects have to play by these rules, that is to say, you only get what you pay for. However, over the years, several effects have been found to interact incorrectly with Celerity, namely Player Hypercritical in the past and now more recently Pet Hypercritical and Pet/Guest Elemental Empowerment.

I do agree that Player Celerity/Optico/Slaymore interactions seem more interesting now than they did previously.



dizzle -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/9/2024 13:55:51)

Does this mean that now, when using something like blood contract for example, the player should receive *double* the damage intake penalty if used with celerity?



Sapphire -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/9/2024 20:06:05)

Oh, you mean when I called it a targetted nerf I wasn't kidding? ^

Fix exhibit A, but not B. I see.

I forsee more beastmaster related things to be reviewed. -Pulls up an armchair-



CarrionSpike -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/10/2024 0:33:06)

quote:

Does this mean that now, when using something like blood contract for example, the player should receive *double* the damage intake penalty if used with celerity?

In an idea world, probably, although the current way that Blood Contract pays for its effect doesn't really allow for this. As an example, having BC apply a 1 turn EleEmpower to the monster would probably make more sense (this of course ignores the fact that BC's effect should probably be changed to be a 1/turn x1.2 EleEmpower on the player).

In general, this just comes down the fact that certain items/effects don't/won't interact correctly with other items/effects. However, this is not relevant/related to the recent bug fixes to certain pet/guest specific statues.



Sapphire -> RE: Optico's toggle + Celerity (3/17/2024 11:40:02)

Irrelevant to the question at hand. Locked to prevent further necroposting. ~Ward



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