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A Remonstrance of Rare Resources

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12/9/2010 20:08:28   
ZamuelNow
Constructive


 Ahhhh... rare content holds a certain sway and allure to those who behold it. However, their existence can be potentially problematic. While they can be exciting in their own right, there's a sort of diminishing returns to their usefulness. In their wake there's a barren landscape of missed potential for bringing the new generation creative resources. In my opinion, we should rethink rare content as a whole.

Opinions?
DF MQ  Post #: 1
12/9/2010 20:14:49   
kasama999
Member

If the staff would re-use them (as in same style but diff. color and difference in specials), then I'm alright with them.
But right now.....we don't have any decent non-rares.
I mean, whenever I'm making builds it almost always comprises of rares....

Gah. So frustrating.
Post #: 2
12/9/2010 20:47:45   
EinhanderX01
Member

As long as this thread doesn't devolve into the usual Rare vs Non-Rare war, it shall remain open.

For now, this thread may remain, but that is subject to change.

Now as for my opinion, I feel that certain Rares, after a long while, should become non-Rare permanent content.

Specifically, Crystal Asteroid War Rares and the SDF Mechs now, and at some point in the future, most of the Credit AvP War Rares (excluding the VB upgradable Tri-Blade and Halberd) and Westion Finale War Rares (except the ShS Salvage Shop).

Why? Because while they were powerful for their time, the times have changed and more advanced techniques and specials have appeared. And besides, it adds free extra equipment to the game which would help reduce some of the equipment dead-zones or low-zones.

To date, the only Rares that have returned with some adjustment as permanent content are the GEARS Games Rares (removal of the Anti-House bonus specials).

As for actually scaling back the strength of Rares, I disagree, for I view them both as rewards for actually taking some time to participate (most anyway) and play (in the event of holidays, as there are more engaging games to play with friends or family than a "simple" Flash game).
Post #: 3
12/9/2010 20:57:25   
stealthwings
Helpful


 And the DWAs, returned as the DPAs. And I think there are a few more.

And I think that there need to be a few more nonrares, but there isn't anything wrong with rares. As einhander said, they reward players who play during holidays.
DF MQ  Post #: 4
12/9/2010 21:10:56   
ZamuelNow
Constructive


 DWA and the GG equipment are rather interesting cases because as far as I can tell, they were re-released shortly after their respective events and were explicitly planned releases. SDF and Crystal Asteroid have valid story reasons to return and probably shouldn't have been rare in the first place. However, AQW of all places has a rather interesting precedent for this. Rename and slightly recolor the new variants of rare equipment. This allows those who got the rares to retain their status while ample equipment can be available in the future. The Mogloween variant of the V-Hunter can probably be grouped in with this example.
DF MQ  Post #: 5
12/9/2010 21:18:32   
Neonpanther
Member

I get what your saying Zamuel. You would like it if some rares came back with the year released/obtained added to their title. I can understand that. I too would like to see some rares come back and sometimes they do with their holiday releases, but some items should stay rare. Forever. Like BattleOn Games has come to define the word "rare" as. Not only because they were called rare but because when they were released, they were way OP. So just imagine if they got a level update and a power update. They would be insane until the level cap was raised and new weapons were released. So in short, return of some rares bad, some rares staying rare good.

~Neon

< Message edited by Neonpanther -- 12/9/2010 21:19:50 >

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DF MQ AQW  Post #: 6
12/9/2010 21:45:22   
ZamuelNow
Constructive


 @Neonpanther: While it could be validly argued that some equipment is too powerful to reissue, there's other things that are perfectly fine that are a tragedy to lose. It's a well known fact that MQ has more rares than permanent equipment. Also, it could be argued that if an item is too powerful to reissue then it might be too strong anyways but that's a discussion for another time.
DF MQ  Post #: 7
12/9/2010 23:34:20   
Maegwyn
Member

These kinds of decisions are Korin's domain. Some love rares, and hug and snuggle their shiny rares. We have so many holidays and promos and special events that getting permanent content into the game is tough.

Some of the specials on rare items that were brought up as being desirable in the shop for what-will-now-be-known-as Flavescent Friday in my opinion shouldn't be allowed to moulder in the minefield of unobtainium forever after. But the actual weapons or mechas have good reason to remain rare - main incentive for fighting a long war... why should people get them for no effort, let alone for a discount... for example. There is precedent for planning and releasing a non-War version of certain things, and that is a Korin decision but it is something that we can discuss as a team and he can make the call, case by case. Probably part of some kind of larger project, and with all the holidays I worry that this kind of thing will get lost in the shuffle. I can think of a few things I meant to discuss that I keep pushing back, in fact.

I really want to get more permanent content in, and while I'm speaking for myself I'm not the only one on the team wanting this. No one is preventing it - it's Time more than anything. Vivi showed me how to recolor areas, and Warlic had started to show me the color-customizing aaaaages ago, which I've learned more about with the skin color on costumes - so we're getting positioned into a place where we can handle doing some modifications of rares to make permanent versions without taking Korin's time away from the development of something else. That idea - modifying rares to bring into permanent content - would require his approval - and there may be reasons why he wants to keep some things rare forever - but I do imagine that we will start to make progress on this.

Minar is doing a lot of weapon art and animation, so if there's a breather between holidays maybe I might get the ok to steal him and sneak something new into a permanent shop here and there. To look at specials on rare items that exist nowhere else and figure out how to make those (in a modified form) become part of a strategy option for all players is something I'd like to do - again, not promising anything, though. The S.O.O.N. list is long and every time I think we're starting to chip away at it... I seem to add something...

Speaking of Lists. I have Lists to make for tomorrow - and I also promised to take a break. So I'd better stop reading/writing on the forums, take a little break, and then get back to the numbers and lists.
Post #: 8
12/10/2010 6:53:52   
CleverUserName
Member

quote:


Some of the specials on rare items that were brought up as being desirable in the shop for what-will-now-be-known-as Flavescent Friday in my opinion shouldn't be allowed to moulder in the minefield of unobtainium forever after. But the actual weapons or mechas have good reason to remain rare - main incentive for fighting a long war... why should people get them for no effort, let alone for a discount... for example. There is precedent for planning and releasing a non-War version of certain things, and that is a Korin decision but it is something that we can discuss as a team and he can make the call, case by case. Probably part of some kind of larger project, and with all the holidays I worry that this kind of thing will get lost in the shuffle. I can think of a few things I meant to discuss that I keep pushing back, in fact.

Maybe so, Maeg, but if there's two things that have gone wrong with MQ, it's A: Power Overload, and B: Overabundance of Rares.
Most Rares are there for good reason, after all. We get many from Wars, as a reward for our hard work, and there are those we get from Seasonal things, such as Mogloween or Frostvale. The only problem with this is that, well, we simply aren't getting enough non-Rares. Think about it people. When was the last time we were given any good, non-rare content? The answer: Yokai, AKA that story arc that ended months ago. Sure, you gus are giving us new items, and they're often good, but if you keep replacing them and removing them and making them obsolete and then releasing something new in their place over and over and over, it's only going to serve a single purpose, that being the almost total removal of strategic ways to categorize our mechs which, I'm not sure if you're aware, is sort of the main selling point for Mechquest. I mean really, it's gotten to the point that we have an entire thread dedicated to this, and in almost every instance the only mechs worth using contain an array of Rare or Nova Gem parts, and little else. And also, may I remind you that there are only a handful of people who post there? Yeah, that's because there are literally that little players who are still interested in customizing, and all of their Mechs fall into just a few categories anyways: Power Drain, Unhittable, Tank or a combination of any of the three. Now, I don't know about you guys, but way back when I first started MQ, AKA when MQ first started, I figured that by now we'd have more than three basic mech setups, especially considering we already had two of those just a few months in (Power Drain is relatively new, all things considered). What MQ needs is some innovation, not a ton of temporary weapons that really all do the same thing.
I mean, coming up with new ideas shouldn't be that tough. The last real innovation we had was the Korin head, which had the semi-useful ability to switch an enemies' health and energy around.
The Staff have already more than proven to us that they are capable of such innovation, now we just need for it to actually happen.

MQ just needs some innovative, non-rare content. Really, that shouldn't be too much to ask.
DF MQ  Post #: 9
12/10/2010 10:03:31   
EinhanderX01
Member

Thank you Mae for some insight.

Personally, I feel old TLAPD Rares could also be added in as Non-Rare content to Crow's Nook's only shop, since the next time we'll see it, it'll be a new shop in the Arthurian Fortress-turned-Citystate. The specials aren't very OP (Parrot launcher might have to be NG-Only to prevent arguments over its special's strength), and the shop should just be updated every TLAPD release.

Also, I think it's as good a time as any to repeat one of my suggestions:

I've suggested this time and again; to help deal with the Rare problem is to release equipment with weaker specials than those rares as permanent content, just make them a bit pricier than normal (along with certain other limitations) and unlocked after completing optional but literally Hard quests (Quests with the only Difficulty at Hard, for both NSC and SC players).

For the upcoming example, I will use a weaker variation of the venerable New Years Goggles/Head/Warhead series. Still pretty powerful, despite their age. The Non-Rare versions only boost +15 (NSC), +20 (SC), and +30 (NG), and are of a GEARS theme. For the sake of this example, I'm calling the heads the "General Equipment Augmented Reaction Head" or "G.E.A.R. Head" for short.

An optional quest with the default difficulty set to "Hard" (and can't be changed) is given by a House Leader or a GEARS Teacher that requires the player to go out and assist one of their distant GEARS Research Outposts in fighting off the ShS wanting to take technology for themselves.

After what will be described appropriately as a tough run (several ShS enemies plus 2 bosses; all on Hard mode with limited partial repairing between them (and only one full heal before each boss battle)), the player will unlock the G.E.A.R. Head equipment. While the specials are weaker than the original New Year Heads, they have limited scaling, and still are pretty powerful in a balanced way (Since the Buff cap is +60, +15 is already 1/4 of that, +20 is 1/3, and +30 is 1/2, and when combined with the fact that the double specials are still on the weapon, such as the Buff Player Attack and Nerf Enemy Attack, it's still a big deal).

Sequel missions will unlock equipment that are also based on powerful Rares.

The 2nd mission could unlock BA-Only IDoT weaponry, though they will have a duration limit of 8 (how long the IDoT stays on the target) and a higher EP Cost. Using the weapon again while the IDoT is active simply ignores adding more turns to the IDoT, but also doesn't reset the IDoT, so as to make it fair enough to fully reach the large damage by turn 8 (if any battle gets there besides using an ARH mech).

The 3rd could unlock FA-Only -25/-35/-45 to Enemy Boost plus a standard 1x EP DoT (A weaker variation of the Freeze Ray if you will, for NSCs and SCs (and NG Users)).

The 4th could unlock a Heal-Only BS (deals zero damage but does add a weak +20/+25/+30 to Defense and a weak heal, weaker than Zorbo's or the Chibi Dragon's Healing, for 3 turns).

The 5th could unlock an FS-Only Pure Damage weapon (a stronger version of the 1-time use Rocket-Propelled Chainsaws but a weaker version of the Mohawk's FS or the Warbear's FS, CD is set at 5 or 6 to balance it somewhat). The NSC Version just has a chance to deal All Critical Damage while the SC version has a chance to deal All Double Damage, and the NG version has a chance to deal Double Critical Damage.

The 6th could unlock a Mech chassis (in the same vein as the Gark/Lagos BAM) that has a Body weapon capable of Reflecting the Enemy's Damage by -30/-40/-50 for 4 (or 5) turns, but has a CD of 8 (or 10) and a high EP cost. It's balanced not only by the high EP use and CD, but also by the fact that due to it being a BAM w/o other defaults, all weaponry can be shot off by any mech with Part Destruction capabilities instead of Disabled.

The 7th could unlock a weaker BS-Only version of the Solar Panel, adding an extra 5/10/15 to EP Regen and with a 3-turn 1.5x EP DoT instead of an EN Regen Freeze.

And so forth.
Post #: 10
12/10/2010 14:37:19   
Maegwyn
Member

@CleverUserName: The part you quoted isn't really in opposition to what you followed it with. I am not disagreeing that we'd like to get the innovative non-rare arsenals stocked.

@Einhander: As soon as I can set up quests, this is the kind of thing that we could probably get going without requiring a lot of new art - sort of a "mini-team" type of release. I am going to FAQ this so it doesn't get lost - if you need to close the discussion I won't be offended to find it locked.
Post #: 11
12/10/2010 14:56:14   
stealthwings
Helpful


 @Ein
If the BAM only reflected 30 or 40 percent of the enemies damage, it wouldn't be that good. We already have nonrare mecha which are not BAM and don't have a high cost which do that. 50 would be useful, but might be OP.
DF MQ  Post #: 12
12/10/2010 15:30:58   
EinhanderX01
Member

I chose a more neutral selection since taking 30% less damage and reflecting a full 30% of an attack back is pretty good as opposed to just taking 30% less damage. Reflecting alone is essentially free damage, which is pretty good for Over Time or Tanking builds. I will admit that either the CD or the EP Cost could go down, but probably not both, unless the difficulty of the quests truly justify the reward of a powerful Chassis. That way, there will be some balance between ease of access, strength of the Special, and limitations to using that Special without resorting to Nerfing it to uselessness. The high credit price will remain regardless.

Maybe I should edit the post to mention resisting damage by the same percent it reflects back.

Of course, the alternative tweaking could be:
  • NSC-35, SC-40, and NG-45 - Difference of strength merely being 5%.
  • NSC-35, SC-40, and NG stays at 50 - Emphasis on the 10 difference to make the NG version more tempting than SC, but otherwise just a slightly better NSC version.
  • NSC-40, SC-45, and NG stays at 50 - Personally, I feel this is a little strong on the NSC-side of things (and possibly SC too), though if the pricing and limitations/drawbacks remain, will not be an issue.

    It's technically 2 specials in one Body (a free attack and damage reduction), so from one standpoint, 30% is plenty for NSCs (and 40 for SC w/o bringing in the Credit Eagle for comparison). The NG version is just for those who really want half all damage taken while reflecting that same 50% back, and is justified in its strength by now being NG-Only.
    • Post #: 13
    12/10/2010 15:40:53   
    stealthwings
    Helpful


    		 We already have the CDPA (I am pretty sure someone confirmed it to not be going rare, or at least not for a long time), the DPA (yeah, not that good, but still does that) and the ARH (For NSCs), with 33 and 40. And they don't have a high cost, and are not BAM.

    What just lets you take 30% less damage? (-30 boost is NOT 30% less damage. If your opponent buffs their boost, then a 30% reflection which doesn't reflect will take 30% of that off, rather than subtracting 30% of the original)

    < Message edited by stealthwings -- 12/10/2010 15:46:57 >
    DF MQ  Post #: 14
    12/10/2010 16:42:50   
    ZamuelNow
    Constructive


    		 Having strong equipment after a long quest chain makes sense and is generally a staple of RPGs. I do wonder if one problem we face is with some pieces of equipment being "too good". I think the words "outdated" and "underpowered" get tossed around a little too much due to some rares. Disabling an enemy's equipment always disables it even if the weapon doing so does less DPT. But I think that may be better discussed in the GBD section.

    One thing that gets overlooked with rares is wars/quests. For the most part MQ has handled this well. While DF sort of had to come back to a number of earlier wars, MQ realized the need for restructuring during the Khaeldron Mines War and it could be argued that the permanent version of the Crystal Asteroid War handles the story better due to how the Rec Room and River were handled. However, it could be argued that there have been two grave missteps.

    The first is Frostval. While the events as a whole should be time limited due to being holiday content, it had info that was important to the rest of the game trapped in a temporary release. Anyone who hadn't done Frostval would have no clue who Kringle was, wouldn't know the place in the game where EvilCorp changed to EbilCorb, and wouldn't know that EC broke ties from the ShadowScythe. The first was more grievous than the latter two due to Lagos' finale and is probably the hardest to resolved. Most likely it would need alternate text based upon whether or not you've done the Frostval content. An interesting contrast is how Evil Jim is handled. While he only shows up in holiday releases, he debuted in permanent content.

    The other is the ShadowScythe Invasion III. The contents within it aren't as "needed" as some of the Frostval stuff but it presents a fair amount of missed opportunity. It had multiple angles of attack, there were SC exclusive missions, the SDF mecha already get plenty of mention, Odessa got a little more screen time to cement her role as a leader, and the big "twist" of the war meter converting to a massive HP bar for the infected starship all worked toward making an epic event. In theory, there's already a perfect place for this. Within Warlic's quest chain, simply alter if not outright replace the mission where the E Series robots attack Soluna.
    DF MQ  Post #: 15
    12/10/2010 18:08:52   
    Neonpanther
    Member

    		I think the story line just needs to be added on to. Do some more with the Dragonoid saga. If you all recall, the items that came out of Yokai were seriously powerful. Unfortunately some of the power has been diminished in comparison to some weapons today i.e. the Wicked Pumpkin shoulders for instance. BUT, the specials the Yokai items provide are crazy. I mean an instant -60 to Attack Bonus is rediculous.
    DF MQ AQW  Post #: 16
    12/14/2010 23:25:14   
    LordEdwin
    Member

    		MQ has too many rares. Some are good, but there has to be powerful non-rare content as well.

    Having lots of rares, for me, means I ignore them. In other games I collect them, but in MQ, rares are so common its the non-rares which are rare
    All planets should have permanent shops, not just rare shops.

    Also, there should be some permanent quests which are super hard and give you super good very expensive items.

    The rares also related to rare storyline and cutscenes. All cutscenes should stay permanently if essential to the plotline, or be brought back each year in the related holiday. There shouldn't be cutscenes scrapped permanently, else, how will new players understand what's going on? Removing cutscenes is also wasteful as they take time and effort to make, and scrapping them means only those who were there at the time can see them.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 17
    12/22/2010 19:45:23   
    Knoodlesguy
    Member

    		i can understand why everyone seems to hate rares, but i think they make this game great. My thoughts, a few strong parts for each holiday, maybe recycle those from previous years and give them better specials, ignore minor holidays, the SCMMs have been cut in production rate, so this should by theory give enough time for events and non-rare releases. If we just keep recycling the old parts, i would be happy, like this New years, i would be pleased to see some old heads just bumped back up to up to date power and levels.
    MQ AQW  Post #: 18
    8/10/2018 20:09:44   
    PD
    Member
     

    		 Not that I like bumping really old topics, but I think this discussion deserves some merit for re-discussion in the context of people trying to get the game back on its feet. Bringing back some of the rares would go a long way in injecting some new life into the game. I'll go back sometime later to make a larger in-depth post about this, but I wanted to bring this thread back up since the problem of the many rares in mechquest is as big of a problem now as it was since 2009 (and a bit later, given the date of the OP). I can understand there's sentimental value and a certain promise that AE has given to players but I really think we ought to be more pragmatic about how we talk about bringing back rares in context to what we know about the game's situation.

    I really do think the best thing to do is to re-release content, and then re-scale them so that they can be used and enjoyed today. No re-skins, the full deal. I think it's more appropriate at this point to first prioritize bringing back content into the game before we actually talk about any kind of re-balancing of rares and other content of the game. This solution will understandably make people angry, but it will save time, money, and bring back meaning to the game. It will also save space in the database and server as well by not creating many new ID's and such to fill the space of the game pointlessly as well.

    < Message edited by PD -- 8/10/2018 20:13:31 >
    Post #: 19
    8/12/2018 22:50:28   
    VoidCorrupts
    Member
     

    		 I personally would like this change. Being playing since 2010 and I was never fond of the rares concept. It was always the most frustrating part of the game.
    I think if rares do return, they should ALL return, no exceptions. That will be the most fair way for everyone.

    No reskins, tyey always ruin the amazing old art
    Post #: 20
    10/10/2018 5:27:46   
    Plasma Charge
    Legendary AdventureGuide!


    		 @PD

    Very late response I know. I personally don't see much issue with bringing back rare items although I think if you're looking to revitalise the game they don't necessarily solve the issues that it currently has. I think if we're at the point where re-balancing of rares is being considered then there certainly is a consideration for releasing new versions of the rare content and leaving the original versions as is. This is of course purely a stylistic game design decision and there are many modern games that would just errata the old versions outright.

    I don't see too much of an issue with the re-colouring items to make them clearly identifiable as the new versions and then releasing them.

    If rare items are brought back it also leads to a question of where to put them. Bringing back the wars that a lot of them are from seems kind of messy so I feel like it would be most appropriate to have them in something like a post game shop (which with the ending of the main MQ ark is something you can easily explain with time being messed up) but that also wouldn't smooth out the holes in items and mechs at certain levels.

    Key point I'm making here (in admittedly an unfocused and roundabout way) is that if time is being put into bringing the old rares back, you could almost just be more targeted and find the level gaps and fill them rather than having to reinstate every old item.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
    10/17/2018 19:12:57   
    VoidCorrupts
    Member
     

    		 @Plasma Charge
    They could just change the name to reflect them being a second release (kind of like Salavaged weapons worked out).

    As for wars, the Pirates vs Arthurian War clearly takes place between rescuing Robina (and defending the ship) to the Pirates defeat (finding the Captain).

    As for rares in general I always thought they should be obtainable as Salvage... Maybe when boarding enemy ships (exploring Lagos in the boat) you can find treasure to plunder in form as salvage... basically build the mechas piece by piece like the Viking mecha from Frostvale 2011. I think there are potential opportunities to implement all old rares in a way that keeps there status as rare, rather than than their true status unobtainable . I'd personally like the team try to implement rares into the game. A post- end game feels lazy.
    Post #: 22
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