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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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3/12/2012 13:19:08   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Remorse
If you do think CS doesn't gain as much damage when combined with rage, unlike DS or Bludgeon, you could run a "comparison" to see how much it does. You can do numbers beforehand of the range it should deal and see how much it deals. If it's below it and impossible even if calculations are right, then they could check the code of CS to see if it's working correctly. Remember it's 3 hits so damage is spread + ignoring defences. Crit is additional bonus which probably makes up for the DS' and Bludgeon's boost.
By any other means, if code for CS is right and damage is right, then CS can't be UP'ed if you're speaking from BH's point of view as they might be a bit weak currently.
AQ Epic  Post #: 676
3/12/2012 14:36:40   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Let's rationalize things here. Two classes have passive defense boosting skills(Hybrid and Mineral). Bludgeon is physical regardless. 5% difference means that if my weapon had 100 damage, I would have 5 more damage boost than Double Strike would. The defense from even Hybrid armor will cover that all up. If you're complaining about damage differences then just quit trying. 5 extra damage when your weapon is at 100 damage is ridiculous to fight over. In case you forgot, damage boosting skills only go off of weapon damage now so it's not an 5% to the entire damage + weapon like it used to be.

The energy cost? So you saved 5 energy. What can you do with 5 energy? Zip, zilch, nada, nothing. If you use them twice you save ten energy which is a 3rd Bludgeon. But that requires over 4 turns to use because of the two turn cooldown from the first two times used. Also add to the fact that not once have I ever fought in a battle with a 3rd anything used aside from Field Medic.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 677
3/12/2012 14:42:43   
Remorse
Member

The amount of balance discussion content is far too large,


The thing is , we shouldnt need to fix every little slight chance of soemthing being oped BUT we sort of have to because of the over amount of stats.



This ONE sugestion would solve 90% of the ideas and complaints posted here and that is change enahments.


BUT we need to make this clear to the devs if we ever want it to happen.

So Who agrees with me, ( I know most of you already do, this is just to show the devs that alot of people do)
Epic  Post #: 678
3/12/2012 14:47:28   
Stabilis
Member

If it lowers the overall # of stat points in this game then I support.
AQ Epic  Post #: 679
3/12/2012 14:53:37   
Leprechaun
Member

If your weapons dmg is 34 then 5% of it is 1,7~2 dmg. So bludgeon deals 2 more dmg then double strike :D

If thats what you are discussing :D
Post #: 680
3/12/2012 15:06:58   
ScarletReaper
Member

I dont care what anyone says. TacMercs were nerfed waaaaayyyyy worse than CH was. I say to be fair, either get rid of reroute and replace smokescreen, or give CH their percentage back and take away malf. As it stands, my tacmerc get's spanked by ch in 1v1. I said screw it and went back to support build and 2v2. Not much fun for me, but best I can do till CH gets a REAL nerf.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 681
3/12/2012 15:10:34   
Stabilis
Member

^

I agree, Cyber Hunters did not receive the proper nerf, but taking the Strength synergism known as Smokescreen from Tactical Mercenaries was a good step. But if you suggest replacing their Reroute with Smokescreen, then I support that.
AQ Epic  Post #: 682
3/12/2012 15:19:37   
ScarletReaper
Member

I suggest that mostly because, using me for example, I don't really rely on reroute at all. It's nice to regen mana, but all I ever used it for was healing, and I can always add a few stat points to increase my mana, or use boosters, but no smoke completely screwed me. I could much easier adjust to no reroute.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 683
3/12/2012 19:51:39   
AQWPlayer
Member

^
But removing reroute would decrease variety, if that's what you want.
AQW  Post #: 684
3/12/2012 20:00:36   
Ranloth
Banned


 I'd prefer for Reroute to stay and Smoke to be out just like it is now. Some people can actually see there's other build than just Smoke ones. ;)

Poison, Surgical Strike; works better with Mineral than with HA of Merc's, Multi, and believe me but Tank FC works as well. Seen a few with really Tanky build and high FC that gave them +40ish Str so their damage ended up being about 18-20 with FC which is fairly good while keeping the Tankiness + Reroute + Healing. It can work, just needs strategy how to counter other builds as it takes time - you can't expect a build to work straight away and to always win so there's a lot of possibilities.
High Atom, Str, Frenzy build also works - Digital X has one - and taking a bit over 31 Energy at Lvl 4 Atom can destroy builds even with Reroute that don't train Energy, even CHs. It's also great to counter Caster TMs which are so called problem nowadays but require perhaps strategy or requirements on some weapons.
AQ Epic  Post #: 685
3/12/2012 21:48:15   
Midnightsoul
Member

slightly decrease deadly aim's support

change fireball's requirement to support

MAKE AGILITY LEVEL SCALED!!!

buff field commander and frenzy

remove frenzy's club requirement

buff static charge by 1% yes, 1%...

increase field medic's heal amount by 5

decrease berzerker's energy cost by 2

azrael borg's effect down to 50%

DF AQW Epic  Post #: 686
3/12/2012 22:24:39   
Reki
Member

Well it seems strength builds in general are an OP issue, so perhaps make it require 1 extra point to increase after 67 points (16-20)...simple minor change that will reduce strength builds a tiny bit for all classes imo.
Idk just a thought

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 687
3/12/2012 22:26:13   
Goony
Constructive!


 @ ND, in your rationale you decided to bring Armors into the discussion, cool, well can you tell me when that armor is useless. Oh yeah, on rage, it gets ignored...

Lemme see, as a mercenary, I manage to survive the 1st rage and the fight progresses to the stage that it is the second rage that decides the battles. The Tech Mage will get it 1st due to hybrid boosting rage. With a Mercenary, their energy is expended at that stage and if I do 40 damage to a Tech Mage they will have enough energy for a rage bludgeon or if not a rage deadly aim. Two very powerful attacks late in battles. 1 costs no energy the other 10. Dead mercenary...

Since you decided to include Tactical Mercs as well, what does that 5 less energy mean. Well for a tactical merc it's the difference of around 20hp...

Huh, what does HP have to do with this??

Well if you are going to compare classes that have reroute, then that's how much (on average) more damage would need to be inflicted on a Tactical Mercenary to get enough energy to do a double strike. Bludgeon is too cheap for damage output.

Meh, I have played and supported the game as a founder mercenary for over 2 years, during that time there have been around 13-14 months where the class has been on the receiving end of some very poor balance. My choice to stay as a mercenary, well yeah, but does that mean it's ok that balance has been so poor for that class for such long periods of time? No, it's rediculous...

If the devs don't want to nerf bludgeon then at the very least mercenaries deserve a buff, I've already endured well over 50% of the time fighting (ingame) against poor balance. If any class is due for some serious changes that improve outcomes at cap level then it is Mercenaries.

I find it really strange that the devs ignore balance issues for such long periods. Why is that? Where are the facts? Does the battle tracker show that when 2 level 34 players, 1 mercenary, 1 tech mage fight each other what is the outcome of these battles... Oh that's right, probably insignificant data due to the fact nobody plays mercenary at that level. I can't remeber the last time I did Pvp against another full varium Mercenary... I wonder why?
Epic  Post #: 688
3/12/2012 22:35:45   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

@ ND, in your rationale you decided to bring Armors into the discussion, cool, well can you tell me when that armor is useless. Oh yeah, on rage, it gets ignored...

Lemme see, as a mercenary, I manage to survive the 1st rage and the fight progresses to the stage that it is the second rage that decides the battles. The Tech Mage will get it 1st due to hybrid boosting rage. With a Mercenary, their energy is expended at that stage and if I do 40 damage to a Tech Mage they will have enough energy for a rage bludgeon or if not a rage deadly aim. Two very powerful attacks late in battles. 1 costs no energy the other 10. Dead mercenary...

Since you decided to include Tactical Mercs as well, what does that 5 less energy mean. Well for a tactical merc it's the difference of around 20hp...

Huh, what does HP have to do with this??

Well if you are going to compare classes that have reroute, then that's how much (on average) more damage would need to be inflicted on a Tactical Mercenary to get enough energy to do a double strike. Bludgeon is too cheap for damage output.

Meh, I have played and supported the game as a founder mercenary for over 2 years, during that time there have been around 13-14 months where the class has been on the receiving end of some very poor balance. My choice to stay as a mercenary, well yeah, but does that mean it's ok that balance has been so poor for that class for such long periods of time? No, it's rediculous...

If the devs don't want to nerf bludgeon then at the very least mercenaries deserve a buff, I've already endured well over 50% of the time fighting (ingame) against poor balance. If any class is due for some serious changes that improve outcomes at cap level then it is Mercenaries.

I find it really strange that the devs ignore balance issues for such long periods. Why is that? Where are the facts? Does the battle tracker show that when 2 level 34 players, 1 mercenary, 1 tech mage fight each other what is the outcome of these battles... Oh that's right, probably insignificant data due to the fact nobody plays mercenary at that level. I can't remeber the last time I did Pvp against another full varium Mercenary... I wonder why?


I see that ND can force the construction out of players, that is good for this Balance Thread in terms of discussion, but why so pessimistic ND Mallet, is there anything that you support in EpicDuel discussions? Anything at all that you will favour/argue for? It seems that you visit the forums to shut ideas down if the player you are referring to does not/wishes not to argue back to you, why so biased? Again, your side of arguing is needed, but never (although possibly in the past), have I seen an optimistic post from you? Something wrong? Goony is someone who makes light posts that are very arbitrary, yet you manage to get even him to type this much? Again, this is good, but may I suggest being more sensitive to "ideas" of other players, these things don't even fully exist in EpicDuel until developers choose to implement them. If I wanted to, I could easily argue against your pessimism FOR the ideas because they are so... raw.

EDIT: Have not mentioned this yet, a constructive post is giving feedback to help reinforce and fix mistakes, not colour them yellow and make them look silly. This would be something you are not doing when discussing with other players. We don't have to be one of your good friends, but at least have the courtesy of taking criticism lightly one step at a time for our community.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/12/2012 22:39:07 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 689
3/12/2012 22:51:40   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 I go by my opinion and logic for balance posting, mainly because skill formulaes aren't exactly known by everyone. PD told me one thing about balance and I try my best to incorporate that into each post I make and not just for balance. One should look at balance as a whole instead of just parts. One should not look at just the damage or cost of a skill compared to similar skills. One should look is the entire skill compared to other similar skills. I'm not looking at just the damage and cost of Bludgeon. I'm looking at the tier, the damage type, the cost, the damage, how it affects other classes, etc. Yes tiers do matter. Atom Smasher actually got buffed because it was underperforming against EMP despite the tier difference and blockableness of it. Those were the two main arguments for buffing it. When people suggest features I always look at what can and will happen and genereally it shows the bad sides to the suggestion. When people make suggestions they have a little paradise in their heads where it works exactly as they intended it to. The problem there is that many balance issues we've had over the years happened because Titan and NW didn't see the players using the skills and stats for purposes they didn't really intend to happen. Heal looping, Beta abuse, Artillery Spam, etc.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 690
3/12/2012 23:03:16   
Goony
Constructive!


 ^Maybe in your all mighty paradise you could come up with some ideas to rectify balance.... All hail the master of Epic Duel, bows to ND Mallet and shuffles away...
Epic  Post #: 691
3/12/2012 23:28:46   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 I personally like to think the ideas out a lot before I post them. I was thinking about the average level of weapons and character level for Jugg matches for quite a bit. It still has flaws like how Beta Weapons would count as lvl 25 weapons. Many balance issues today are easy fixes from the problems I see. Reduce stats on Beta Weapons or give them requirements fit for their stat levels to lower the effectivness of spamming Casting skills. Give the evolved classes their new Ultimates and AoEs(gets rid of Strength CHs and Tank CHs assuming the new skills aren't strength and tech respectively). After that, I'd give it some time and see which classes need changes after that.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 692
3/12/2012 23:45:55   
Goony
Constructive!


 Oh yeah, I can see what you mean about tank/str CH. Blood Mages don't like them do they? You carry on about how we don't think about what we post then you do exactly the same and revert to issues that effect the outcomes of your own matches. lmao... So exactly how does new ultimates for the evolved classes rectify the gaping discrepancy between mercenaries and the other classes?

Yeah, I am banging on about Mercenaries, the class is suffering and needs some solutions to make it more effective. You obviously don't agree with modifying bludgeon, so what can be done?

Sure, they could fix intimidate so it reduces weapon damage instead of strength, add that new passive that was promised 6 months ago and all the time there is nothing done... They managed to animate and code a whole new skill for a bot in 2 days, oh, that makes money why would the devs concern themselves with balancing the classes :(
Epic  Post #: 693
3/12/2012 23:46:31   
BlueKatz
Member

@Goony You don't really have to worry about Merc anyways, they gonna get buffed soon.
Unless you mean TLM, I find them extremely good atm.

One of the few skills I would love to see update are Technician and Field Commander. They are not very good at all. The only time you can use them effectively is when you get debuffed. Because of how stat work, decay or whatever you call, the more you invest into them the less effective they are, however debuff skills and many up to date skills scale very well in any situation and at any rank and level.
I won't mind if the cost each rank is increased up to 2 but they really should buff those skills this way or another. Like Reflex maybe.
It would be cool if Technician have Thorn-like effect which reflect 15% damage back to enemy and increase 2% each rank (so ~23% at Rank 10)
And Field Commander should have Damage ignore effect same number as above. Or maybe +Hit% as both Merc and TLM have Block problem

About stat issue which many people mention lately, I still stand for Fixing Rage and add decay on Block, Crit, Deflection. That will solve 99% Stat problem without make ED lose money. I don't see reduce stat amount is a long term plan anyways, which is not a god idea at all.
It just so pain stupid seeing CH with 45 Def which equal to 45% Block chance Without SA and 55% with SA.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 694
3/12/2012 23:59:36   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

You don't really have to worry about Merc anyways, they gonna get buffed soon.
Unless you mean TLM, I find them extremely good atm.


When you look at the last nerf, Smokescreen taken away from Tactical Mercenaries (they still have Reroute + Mineral Armour), Static Charge becomes more Strength heavy... I wonder if this faith in balance is practical anymore.

In other news: I have found a prized post from LONG time ago, huzzah! Expect VERY large posts in about... 9 hours from now (I have to sleep).
AQ Epic  Post #: 695
3/13/2012 0:05:32   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Field Commander is such an underrated skill. I used it before it easily gave the 50+ strength it gives now and I made a quite good 2vs2 build that was strength based. Static Charge getting nerfed means that now you actually have to get some strength instead of slightly above default strength and getting close to full energy from it.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 696
3/13/2012 0:11:06   
Mr. Black OP
Member

Make blocks harder to come by, luck just plays too big a role in this game.
Defender has 100 Dexterity
Attacker has 60 Dexterity

Block Adjustment = (100 - 60) / 2 = 20
Chance to Block = 10 + 20 = 30%

Instead make it so its like
Block Adjustment= (100-60)/3=13.33
Chance to Block=10+13.33=23.33%

This would make SA more desirable because then you need 3 dex for 1% increased to block, now it is 2 dex for 1%, but with SA you need 2 support to move up so by doing this it would make SA more useful while giving a slight nerf to the CH high dex build.
Epic  Post #: 697
3/13/2012 0:21:34   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @goony Do I honestly have to be anything other than a BM to criticize balance? Str/Tank CHs are a problem to more than just BMs. Any class that can abuse an energy regain, and defensive stats to achieve a high damage output needs looked at. Example: Plasma Armor, Multi Shot, Static Charge and Dex. A big tank that can easily spam Multi Shot with Malfunction to get huge output and little damage input.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 698
3/13/2012 0:47:32   
Goony
Constructive!


 @ ND Mallet, No, but as a merc I can beat some CH, in the case that they are a huge tank, they have nothing other than their multi shot that does significant damage. What I find with cybers is if they try to use high dex they have low support and str. This leaves them open to crits and you can just ignore malf as it improves with support and they have to max static to get any decent energy return.
Blood Mages do have the counters to deal with them, just that BM tend to spam str and go for quick kills. Ever heard of skills called reflex boost and energy shield? Block their static and tadah! Or maybe tank yourself and have high tech, use your gun and primary to build rage and use plasma connon on rage... Plenty of options, cyber hunters are not as OP as people make them out to be. It's just the fact that the builds people are using are easily destroyed by CH... Wish I had some more time to tell you how to make some builds or strategise...
Epic  Post #: 699
3/13/2012 0:54:29   
BlueKatz
Member

quote:

Field Commander is such an underrated skill. I used it before it easily gave the 50+ strength it gives now and I made a quite good 2vs2 build that was strength based. Static Charge getting nerfed means that now you actually have to get some strength instead of slightly above default strength and getting close to full energy from it.

That's the problem with such skill. They are fairly effect at low situation such when the enemy can't do enough damage to you (like when they don't have any attack element >> how are) or when you get debuffed. The low starting MP and low cooldown can be very strong in 2vs2 but it's just useless vs 60 damage BM or when you have like 50 base damage.
The skill should be tweaked to make it more useful

CH is just broken... stupid class, it is so balanced because we must use some specific builds to kill them. Just like Healloop TM, why the hell they nerfed them in the first place, you only need to go for some good builds...
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 700
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