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Increase Energy Cost Of Plasma Bolt

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9/16/2012 18:26:34   
drekon
Retired ED Guest Artist


 Plasma Bolt currently requires 29 energy at it's maximum level, while Fireball requires 33 energy at it's maximum. Alone, both skills are capable of dealing roughly the same amount of damage; going as high as 75-80+. The problem that I see is that Tech Mages have the advantage of Malfunction and/or Technician. Enabling them to deal a greater amount of damage and sacrificing less energy. Understandably, it takes more energy to use both Malfunction or Technician and Plasma Bolt than it does to use Fireball. However, when you take the effects of Reroute into account, you're faced with a powerful, low cost skill that no amount of EMP/Energy Shield can counter effectively.

Considering the need for lower level Tech Mages who rely on Plasma Bolt, I don't think the increase should affect all levels. Instead, it should only affect levels 32 and above.

The Method:
Just like how the potency of certain skills increase as one's level increases, the energy cost should do the same. The following is an example.

*Represents the suggested increase at level 35. Numbers will be lower (-2) for each decreasing level.
*Represents the current energy costs.

Level 1: 11 17
Level 2: 13 19
Level 3: 15 21
Level 4: 17 23
Level 5: 19 25
Level 6: 21 27
Level 7: 23 29
Level 8: 25 31
Level 9: 27 33
Level 10: 29 35

I'm guessing Caster Tech Mages will not be pleased, but I'd like to know what the rest of the community thinks about such an adjustment. If it's at all possible, it would be great if the staff could arrange for their testers to experiment with this to find out it's effectiveness.
Epic  Post #: 1
9/16/2012 18:30:21   
Renegade Reaper
Member

or increase the energy cost by 1 every 5 levels for just about the same effect.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
9/16/2012 18:56:25   
Mother1
Member

Drekon this should go into the balance session. However, I don't support this idea. Instead put a stat requirement on the plasma bolt, since it doesn't have one right now (This will slow down the overpowering of plasma bolt) and make it increase by 4 tech instead of 3. In other words make it on par with fireball. Also for the lower level mages it won't hurt them as much since like you said it can still be combo'ed with malf and technician but it won't be so powerful to the point where it is two turning people.

Making separate energy costs for the higher ups is basically singling them out which isn't fair in the least since when something gets nerf everyone feels it not just a certain group of people.
Epic  Post #: 3
9/19/2012 15:30:52   
AqworldThunder
Member

*cough mother1 is a tech mage*
Supported, tech mages are over powered I switched to Tactical Mercenary because they nerfed Cyber.
AQ MQ Epic  Post #: 4
9/19/2012 15:41:20   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

*cough mother1 is a tech mage*

Kinda biased aren't you.. Don't say that because I'm also a TM but these remarks aren't necessary when opinion is still valid. Does it help you to know that I also have CH, TLM and Merc at Lvl 28-30 so I'm not biased?

Scaled cost isn't necessary, just bump it to 33 at Lvl 10 (like Fireball) and also change progression to match that of FB, simple as. It'd drop damage by about 8 per 100 Tech as well as harder to loop.
AQ Epic  Post #: 5
9/19/2012 16:07:11   
Bunshichi
Member

Something needs to be done about its annoying to be hit with it multiple times. I take more dmg from a bolt that bunkers.

< Message edited by Bunshichi -- 9/19/2012 16:08:35 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 6
9/19/2012 16:22:12   
Mother1
Member

Bunshichi that we all feel the same, however what mean and Trans said would make a lot more sense then to do what OP says since it isn't just high level mages abusing this but mid level mages to low mid level mages as well. I know this because I have 2 other characters and my merc character get's two turned because of the max malf max plasma bolt combo. The only way I beat them is if I manage to shut down their plasma bolt with my pyro fly or if I manage to crit them with the infernal interdictor which doesn't seem right in the least.

Aqworldthunder Yes I am a tech mage, however I don't use Plasma bolt in my build. Also I feel the pain of the plasma bolt attack from caster mages as well. I lose to them 95% of the time because right after they supercharge me they rage plasma bolt me using the plasma bolt for a 2nd time.

But even if they what you said (which wouldn't be fair since it only affects a certain group of mages and not all of them) What about all the mages below that level? They would still be able abuse the crap out of plasma bolt, destroying everyone in their path while still being overpowered. What me and Trans said will not only weaken Plasma bolt since it will scale slower, and be harder to spam, but with make it more balance but at the same time won't single out or hurt the lower level mages either.

But on another note, I think they should do the same for plasma rain as well since like plasma bolt it has no stat requirement and should have one to keep it form being abused by dex build tech mages.
Epic  Post #: 7
9/23/2012 15:53:52   
drekon
Retired ED Guest Artist


 @Mother1, the primary reason for my suggestion is that both Plasma Bolt and Fireball are relatively similar in damage output, but PB requires less energy. If they were to be made equals, then Plasma Bolt would need an increase in energy cost AND a stat requirement just like Fireball. This shouldn't be too big of a nerf for Tech Mages since they have the ability to increase the power of PB in addition to having 2 skills capable of increasing their energy without losing a turn. This seems like a fair trade off. My only concern with the stat requirement is the lower level Tech Mages who rely heavily on Plasma Bolt. That is why I only focused on the Energy Cost increase.

< Message edited by drekon -- 9/23/2012 15:56:26 >
Epic  Post #: 8
9/23/2012 16:20:54   
Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

Plasma Bolt fix:
33 Energy at max
1 Damage per 4 stats instead of 3

Tada...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
9/23/2012 18:02:41   
Mother1
Member

Drekon when has a nerf or buff been made to affect a certain group of people? The answer is never so why should it be so now? Also if they did this then it would be picking on 33-35 because 32 and lower would be left alone plus even if they did what you said then the abuse would still be there at the mid low to 32 since I use alts and see the lower levels that have a choice abuse the crap out of this.

Also while someone brought up that I am a tech mage I don't use plasma bolt build it is still at level 1 however I remember using it against someone I malfed and I got 55 damage out of it and this wasn't even a crit which is crazy.

Also remember TM had to use 33 energy in the past before rabble buffed it for the lower mages along with plasma rain. However when they did this buff it affected all the classes and overpowered the uppers. However at the same time they never did a buff or nerf that singled out any level. Doing so now would be like playing favorites or as I said before picking on a certain group.

Slowing the scaling and upping the damage worked with fireball for blood mages so putting the skill on par with fireball would be a good answer. It can still be comboed with TM other moves however it won't hurt to much at higher levels, and at lower levels classes aren't as powerful so it won't hurt them either. Plus this would be without picking on a certain group. That is why I don't support your idea it picks on higher level mages while leaving 32- below alone.
Epic  Post #: 10
9/23/2012 19:47:29   
drekon
Retired ED Guest Artist
quote:

...when has a nerf or buff been made to affect a certain group of people?
...they never did a buff or nerf that singled out any level.


From my OP:
quote:

Just like how the potency of certain skills increase as one's level increases, the energy cost should do the same.


You may not remember, but there was an update a while back that increased certain skills at higher levels. This could be considered a buff that only affect a certain group of people. The energy cost increase I proposed would work in the same way, but instead of a buff, it would be considered a necessary nerf. Lower levels are unaffected, therefore the original buff to the skill that was meant for lower levels will be retained. This, coupled with a stat requirement or increased improvement tier that Blaze suggested, would be an effective nerf in my opinion. Obviously, it would need to be tested before we can know for sure, but in theory, it should put an end to the OP tech spam TM while still keeping it a formidable build.
Epic  Post #: 11
9/23/2012 20:22:56   
Mother1
Member

Drekon that would mean that the lower levels would still be able to abuse this. While it can't be abused at really low levels, it can still be abused by mid lows to the 32. Your nerf was made for 3 levels out of 35! caster mages come at all levels and this used at all levels.

You might slow down those 3 levels but the rest will still be over powered. People have been complaining at more then just those levels not just 33-35. As I stated before I used my lower level accounts and I seen level 18-29 using the plasma bolt this way, and I have seen tech abuse builds used at lower levels as well. Your nerf won't affect those players and they will still walk around overpowering the masses with the max malf max plasma bolt or high malf high plasma bolt combo. That is what I am trying to point out. It isn't just level 33-35 which is what you seem to singling out.
I remember playing as my merc and when I blocked the strike that malf me, then I got hit with a plasma bolt and it did 62 damage to me while crit! That is vastly OP.

You energy raise for levels 33-35 won't affect those players who can tech spam plasma bolt at the lower levels, and it does nothing to slow down the power gain of the attack. It only slows down if even that the higher level 33-35 in some cases depending what about of energy they have.

Also what you are talking about I don't think I was around for otherwise I would have mentioned it.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/23/2012 20:23:42 >
Epic  Post #: 12
9/23/2012 23:07:47   
drekon
Retired ED Guest Artist
quote:

...it can still be abused by mid lows to the 32.
...That is what I am trying to point out. It isn't just level 33-35 which is what you seem to singling out.


If that's all that concerns you, then would you suggest that those levels be included in the energy cost increase?
Epic  Post #: 13
9/23/2012 23:24:44   
Mother1
Member

While it would stop some it won't stop them all. The attack will still be overpowered is another thing I was pointing out. That was why many other suggested slowing down the the way it progess in power along with upping the energy cost back to what it was as well as add a stat requirement. Just upping the energy cost to a certain group of people still leaves the attack OP and the extra energy cost won't help if you get two turned by the malf plasma bolt combo now will it?

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/23/2012 23:25:33 >
Epic  Post #: 14
9/24/2012 1:30:05   
kittycat
Member

In addition to Reroute, they can spam plasma bolt as they desire. An increase in EP would work if the stat requirement is implemented. Yes, it will be undoing what the Devs have done before, but it isn't fair if its physical counterpart is significantly less effective in terms of damage, stat requirements and energy cost.
AQ MQ  Post #: 15
9/24/2012 10:55:11   
drekon
Retired ED Guest Artist


 @Mother1,

quote:

...That was why many other suggested slowing down the the way it progess in power along with upping the energy cost back to what it was as well as add a stat requirement...
...Just upping the energy cost to a certain group of people...won't help...now will it?


O.o You mean like what I said earlier?

quote:

...Plasma Bolt would need an increase in energy cost AND a stat requirement just like Fireball.
...This seems like a fair trade off.
...This, coupled with a stat requirement or increased improvement tier that Blaze suggested, would be an effective nerf in my opinion.


Well, it seems like you and I are on the same page now.
Epic  Post #: 16
9/24/2012 12:59:59   
Mother1
Member

What you were suggesting originally was to just up the energy requirement for a small group of people while leaving the skill itself over powered. Yes it will help slow down the ability to loop plasma bolt for that group of people, but it doesn't stop it from staying overpowered for any of them. Also in your original post you said making it like fireball would be too much of a nerf as well as trying to single out a small group of people which wouldn't be helpful in the least as the vast majority will still be able to tech spam and abuse plasma bolt.

That was why people said add the stat requirement to take away some of the points that can be used to spam tech for plasma bolt, lower the way it powers up to take away from the sting of it, and up the energy cost back to were it was so it can't be easily looped.

You see how it helped with fireball when they made it increase with 4 str instead of 3 it made a world of difference. So by making plasma bolt increase with 4 tech instead of 3 while adding the stat requirement and increasing the energy (in other words making it on par with fireball) will not only even it out, but as I stated several times it can still be combo'ed with malf and technician at the mid levels and lower ones to help out the lower levels.
Epic  Post #: 17
9/24/2012 13:34:50   
drekon
Retired ED Guest Artist
quote:

Also in your original post you said making it like fireball would be too much of a nerf...

-_- Are you sure I said that in my OP?
Epic  Post #: 18
9/24/2012 18:17:43   
Mother1
Member

^ My mistake it wasn't in your first post. However in a later post you did say that you were only focusing on the energy cost for higher levels because of the lower level mages who rely on it and that was the reason why do didn't want to add a stat requirement or slow the way it powers up. In other words you want to leave the attack overpowered but at a higher cost for a very small group of caster TM. Even if you included the group I mentioned in it the bolt would still be overpowered, and even with this energy cost it isn't hard to add a few more points to energy without hurting their builds. That is what would happen if they just increased the energy cost for that set group of mages.

They will meet the min requirements of their equipment unless they are using the beta items (which at mid levels is still good armor even if outdated and doesn't have any) and do the the same thing all over again. It won't stop the overpower bolt, and they will still be two turning some players with the malf and plasma bolt combo or bring their opponents close to death.

What the players want is a more balanced plasma bolt that doesn't feel like they are getting hit with a supercharged bunker blaster with or without the crit. What you are suggesting as I said a couple of times is a more expensive but still overpowered attack.

While this will help make it harder to loop the attack is still overpowered and what would be the point of increasing the energy cost of an attack so it will harder to loop when the attack already ends the duel without the player needing to loop it? (This is more of the lower levels then the higher higher ones since it isn't just high level mages doing this and the mage would have to be really supercharged to 2 turn a high level TM.)

But on another note I was battling a Caster TM in two vs two and I had 36-42 resist including my armor and agility bonus, and this caster TM was had 154+ tech on me plus a 46 bonus from technician and he first a rage plasma bolt at me dealing 74 damage and this wasn't even with a crit. I know he had rage and he had all that tech but that is crazy overpowered. Your Energy increase won't stop attacks like that if they have the energy plus for other TM is extremely hard to steal enough energy to stop this since assimilation does less then the rest of the energy draining moves.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/24/2012 18:27:17 >
Epic  Post #: 19
9/25/2012 1:24:54   
drekon
Retired ED Guest Artist


 Again...

quote:

This[energy cost increase], coupled with a stat requirement or increased improvement tier that Blaze suggested, would be an effective nerf in my opinion.


I've long since realized that an energy cost increase alone won't be enough, and therefore altered my view on the issue to include one of two other suggested nerfs. I don't know why you're still focusing on what I said in the OP, but like I said before, when it comes to what needs to be done..."you and I are on the same page now." :)
Epic  Post #: 20
9/25/2012 3:49:46   
Ranloth
Banned


 I do see your reasoning behind much higher EP cost than Fireball - despite you mentioning even Tech/4 + 33 EP cost wouldn't be enouhg - which is Reroute and the way in which it's easy to loop (look at Mother1's post above, last paragraph). But isn't that putting TLMs in the same boat? I know they don't share the same skills and it may be a fool's statement but they still share skills of other classes, own Reroute and it's easier to loop for them skills such as Frenzy, maybe SS, Poison, Heal, and such.

I do realise the devastating power of Casters, I was one myself with Beta Gun, Frost Destroyer, Tesla/Borg, and Bunny Zooka and my Tech was 111 I believe. With decent stats to defend myself as well as skills, I was unstoppable unless it was old CHs looping EMP on me which is less likely now or rather harder to loop it. You propose level-scaled cost but Energy is fixed at all Levels unless you train it so you're putting 2 classes (if we count TLMs) at a disadvantage because of the Reroute. I know passive skills revamp isn't likely anytime soon - I spoke with Rabble about it and I think we need 'Shari who's busy - but once it happens, passives won't be a must in every build to compete just like SC isn't as useful or a must at least in all the builds. Of course it won't be nerfed that much, it's still a passive. +4 EP more may seem like nothing if we bump the cost to 33 at L10, but even with Lvl 7 Reroute (25% IIRC), 4 EP means they gotta take in 16 more damage to get it (or 14-16, not sure how it's rounded) as opposed to taking that 14-16 damage less just to cast Bolt. It does make a difference, especially if you put Atom/EMP/Assimilate on top of it which would further slow it down. I've also mentioned few times, and not just here, slower progression of 'Tech/4' as opposed to /3. Per 100 Tech, currently Bolt gets 33 damage and with slower progression, it'd be 25. 8 damage is a difference since you take in less damage and fact they must take in 14-16 more damage to cast Bolt further makes it harder to loop. I won't mention lower Levels where Bolt + Reroute is really deadly combo for many levels.

I do realise where you're getting at with your suggestion but I do have my view on it and I didn't justify it earlier in my 1st post. Would you be able to re-evaluate it now? I think I justified it enough to not completely support level-scaled Energy cost.

(3 paragraphs started with "I do.." xD)
AQ Epic  Post #: 21
9/25/2012 5:08:30   
gangster a
Member

i see no need for this i have just changed to tech mage and if this nerf was applied it would be unfair since bm and bountys are already overpowering tech mages whatever build i use.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 22
9/25/2012 5:19:59   
Ranloth
Banned


 That's irrelevant. Caster TM dominates all builds but ones that loop EMP/get lucky with Atoms. This is regarding ONE skill and ONE build which is strong for TMs, too strong even without Beta Weapons. Beta allows even bigger abuse but without, you can get a bit higher minimal damage. BHs and BMs are different matter and BMs don't pose that much of a threat after FB nerf (you can defend much easier now) and BHs can be countered with Reflex, Matrix, Atom/EMP/Assimilate, or outdamaging them. One build isn't supposed to win 100% of the fights, I win against many BHs and BMs using Focus 5 TM due to use of Matrix in particular, although Assimilate at L5 also comes in very handy. Caster, on the other hand, dominates pretty much every build unless it's another Caster TM (Caster TM > Str BM) OR EMP looping.

Also this is regarding PB of TMs not BHs or BMs, so that should be taken to Balance Thread instead. Drekon raises valid points here and I look forward to seeing his replies since idea is interesting but needs a bit more explanation (thus I posted my views again on it).
AQ Epic  Post #: 23
9/25/2012 5:28:16   
gangster a
Member

^ i see your point trans but since that is the only build which can take down tanks like i said before we would be weakened considerably.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 24
9/25/2012 5:32:34   
Ranloth
Banned


 I disagree, Focus 5 takes down Tanks very easily for me as well as glass cannons. Its damage is lower than Caster's BUT it doesn't cost me any Energy nor skill points so I can invest them elsewhere. Dex TMs also work against Tanks as well as Support but builds take time to perfect and be used efficiently so tweaks are usually done to build to fill in the "holes" in your build.

But as I said, it's really off-topic and you can get help against BHs and BMs in Battle Strategy Forum, not in Suggestions. If you wish to continue this, do so over PM instead since we're really going off-topic.
AQ Epic  Post #: 25
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