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=OS= Balance Discussion Thread

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7/23/2013 19:08:42   
Leader
Unrequited


 Welcome to the OverSoul Balance Discussion Thread. Feel like there's a card too strong or too weak? A character that needs a buff? Or any other feature that may seem imbalanced, then here's the thread to discuss your ideas and what changes you think would fix these problems!

OVERSOUL DISCUSSION THREAD RULES & GUIDELINES

  • All Universal Forum Rules apply.
  • All OverSoul General Discussion Rules apply.
  • This thread is to discuss content or features that affect the balance of the game, or how those features could be balanced, any other discussion will be deleted on sight.
  • For any features or content that is currently not included in the game, or if there is a certain feature you do NOT want to see or would like changed, but does not fit into a balance discussion thread - you are free to post in the =OS= What would YOU like to see? Thread.
  • For content released in the future that wishes to be discussed, but does not include balance discussion, please use the =OS= Beta Release Thread.
  • When posting an idea or response to an idea, please do so using Constructive Criticism. Any Unconstructive Criticism will be considered as spam and will be deleted. Further response with unconstructive criticism and warnings will be issued. Below explains clearly in the manner you should be posting:

    quote:

    Constructive Criticism

    What is it?
    Constructive criticism is being able to process and offer your own thoughts and opinions in order to give courteous and friendly feedback. This is done by explaining what you like and dislike, while at the same time providing feedback that is useful. This is what separates constructive feedback from ranting/complaining and flaming.

    Does it help? How?
    Yes! Constructive criticism helps because not only are you giving feedback about what you don't like about a quest/event, but you're also giving feedback about what you DID like in the quest. Feedback could include on such topics as statistics, more dialogue, more explanatory cutscenes, more fights - everything that quests or events would normally include. This gives the game staff a better idea on future improvements.

    Example of Constructive Criticism:
    "While I ontice that fire elemented cards are mainly offensive, ice and water cards do not get the attention they need. Ice is a highly defensive deck yet they fail in getting this right. I would suggest more combinations like reflection damage or stronger shields. And water should have better heals that are more energy efficient but damage should not be neglected at all either."

    Example of Unconstructive Criticism:
    "Fire cards are way too overpowered. They always deal high damage and in the mean time, Ice sucks so much. Water is even worse. This is stupid! D:<"


    Thanks to Megakyle777 for the suggestion!
    • Post #: 1
    7/23/2013 19:14:05   
    The Jop
    Member

    		I'll take this opportunity to say that Corruption is too powerful for its cost, and that heals are not as energy efficient as shields, making water characters some of the weakest ones. It's good that they're integrating more unblockable attacks, but when you're fighting enemies with over 5,000 health, 500 unblockable damage doesn't make much of a difference, so shields are nearly as effective as heals. If it was to the point where you could use unblockables every few turns then heals would be more valuable than shields, and worth the energy costs.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
    7/23/2013 19:25:42   
    clintonian
    Member

    		@the jop i agree corruption is too powerful.

    Increase greater heals cost to 6 and wait 2 turns instead of one cause really 5 energy for 1000 heal is ridiculous. Just a suggestion but really greater heal needs to change.

    < Message edited by clintonian -- 7/23/2013 19:29:55 >
    Post #: 3
    7/23/2013 19:31:47   
    NDB
    Member

    		I feel like refresh is still really underpowered because you have to use it with a shield. It's simply too inconvenient while the card itself isn't all that great. Fresh Start is also somewhat UP -I mean 2 cards, really? Void Reflection and Counter Strike are a little too easy to avoid, especially with all these new DoT cards becoming easier to obtain (CC, Fire Whirl, Frostbite and Corruption). Life Drain needs it's energy cost lowered to 7 because it only makes sense, and Blood Rage needs either to health or energy cost lowered by 1. Other pierce cards are underpowered right now. I feel like Water Crash, Ice Needle, Blessed Strike, Stone Strike, and possibly Inferno should all have their energy costs lowered by 1. Even the 1 damage Pierce seems like it should just cost 1. Snow and Ice Orb are both pretty useless unless you are using them to finish the game because of how bad the energy efficiency is, especially since you won't necessarily have 1000 or 2000 shield at the time you use it. Frostbite is clearly underpowered because of how much it costs--it should really be lowered to 4. Incinerate is still overpowered even after the added energy cost and should have it's damage lowered to 500. Meteorite should also have it's energy cost raised to 13. Greater Heal is much too effective compared to Healing Spring and should either cost more or heal less.
    Epic  Post #: 4
    7/23/2013 20:09:12   
    Mondez
    Member

    		I never thought the day that we would get a balance thread because I'm afraid that it would turn out like ED's balance thread. Okay for Corruption I can say that adding a +2 to energy will justify the damage. For the piercing cards I say wait until stats and artifacts to come out before making balance suggestions to them because do remember we are still missing 2 main features that deal with card damage.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
    7/23/2013 20:31:32   
    The Finnish Phoenix
    Member

    		Shatter should cost 6, Poison 7, Mountain Crush 7, and Corruption 12. The difference between Neutralize and Fresh Start is a bit much, Fresh Start should be changed to something like "discard 1 defense card or spell" to be more useful and thematic.

    quote:


    Meteorite should also have it's energy cost raised to 13.


    This I disagree with. Meteorite is no more energy efficient than a standard 500-attack as it is, and if anything Power Flow and Death Flow should have their costs lowered. Instant damage cards are already weak enough as they are.

    quote:


    Life Drain needs it's energy cost lowered to 7 because it only makes sense, and Blood Rage needs either to health or energy cost lowered by 1. Other pierce cards are underpowered right now. I feel like Water Crash, Ice Needle, Blessed Strike, Stone Strike, and possibly Inferno should all have their energy costs lowered by 1. Even the 1 damage Pierce seems like it should just cost 1.


    I do however agree with all of that. :)

    quote:


    Snow and Ice Orb are both pretty useless unless you are using them to finish the game because of how bad the energy efficiency is, especially since you won't necessarily have 1000 or 2000 shield at the time you use it. Frostbite is clearly underpowered because of how much it costs--it should really be lowered to 4.


    4 energy makes it 200% damage which is something I'd rather avoid, 5 energy I could agree with though. It is underpowered, especially with Shatter being so blatantly better. Snow and Ice Orb seem okay as finishing moves though, especially since there's usually not more than 1 per deck.

    quote:


    Greater Heal is much too effective compared to Healing Spring and should either cost more or heal less.


    They're both 200% heals so it's not like Greater Heal is way better, but it is better since it's instant. I think Greater Heal to 6 with a 2-turn wait as clinton said is good. I'd be a bit reluctant to nerf Water's cards until it becomes on par with other elements, which it still isn't.

    < Message edited by The Finnish Phoenix -- 7/23/2013 20:32:49 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 6
    7/23/2013 22:14:50   
    NDB
    Member

    quote:

    They're both 200% heals so it's not like Greater Heal is way better, but it is better since it's instant. I think Greater Heal to 6 with a 2-turn wait as clinton said is good. I'd be a bit reluctant to nerf Water's cards until it becomes on par with other elements, which it still isn't.

    Healing Spring is 5 energy for 800 while Greater Heal is 5 for 1,000.
    Epic  Post #: 7
    7/23/2013 22:23:03   
    The Finnish Phoenix
    Member

    		Oh my mistake I thought it was four, interesting. Greater Heal should definitely be nerfed. That being said, Light characters aren't exactly the best around even with it since it's so limited.

    While I'm here I should probably mention Catlike Reflexes, it's pretty inefficient compared to most DoTs.

    < Message edited by The Finnish Phoenix -- 7/23/2013 22:25:19 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 8
    7/23/2013 22:35:50   
    Mondez
    Member

    		Greater Heal is fine as it is, truth be told someone with regen effects are much more annoying than full on healing. Do note that water characters have Fresh Start plus they have 2 different kinds of health regens. I'm sorry to say, but this is why I was against a balance thread because there are unnecessary requests for nerfs and buffs when E.R., Artifacts, and stats which are the main features of battles haven't been released yet. I don't agree on a cost decrease on moves like Deathflow. Incinerate should have a 3 energy cost and do note that Meteor deals neutral damage in which will be affected by ER.

    Reason why pierce cards cost extra is because they can go past shields and counters. The Jop knows how well I can use Piercing cards. Bloodrage is a bit costing, but appropriate because it deals 500 PIERCING DAMAGE.

    Healing spring may cost much, but can be easily stacked with other health regen cards. Fresh Start I do agree may need change.

    Some of the suggested nerfs and boosts I see I'm sorry to say are a bit unnecessary because again the three main missing key features of OS have not been implemented to help with balance. I agree that water is a bit underpowered at the moment, but overall I see near perfect balance at this stage.

    If you don't agree then I respect your choice in the matter, but again I believe this thread was created too early for OS because through my experience in the ED balance forum I will see complaints against cards that are balanced already and changes to a near balanced system that hasn't been affected by any of the main missing features.

    < Message edited by Mondez -- 7/23/2013 22:49:12 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
    7/23/2013 22:45:48   
    The Jop
    Member

    		It says "Normal Damage", not neutral damage. I don't see why they would make a neutral spell cost fire energy. Anyway, the game has been going for nearly a year so balance issues have to be addressed some time. Things like stats and elemental resistances are not coming any time soon, if ever. AQW planned to have (customizable) stats and elements in beta too, but that didn't work out, if you remember.

    < Message edited by The Jop -- 7/23/2013 22:48:27 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
    7/23/2013 22:54:35   
    Mondez
    Member

    		@The Jop
    At some point yes, but still early because the coders if you recall are busy coding their own games and omni. Doesn't AQW have different coders? I don't think we are at a position to determine whether the in-developing features will come out or not because in the long line Nulgath has informed us before on lateness on CC. Again both coders are busy with different projects, but I do assume that Nulgath and the team have everything planned out. I do know artifacts have been planned out and the base for elements have a chart. Stats is unknown at this point since I still have no idea how it'll work.

    Again I feel that this thread is still too early even though OS is a year old.

    < Message edited by Mondez -- 7/23/2013 22:59:44 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
    7/23/2013 23:08:38   
    The Finnish Phoenix
    Member

    		A balance thread does nothing but provide the staff with an extra resource to get a sense of their player base's general opinion to be considered and acted upon as they deem necessary. I trust the staff's discretion and sense of priorities in how they commit their time to the game and its various features and intricacies, if I didn't I wouldn't be playing.

    quote:


    Fresh Start I do agree may need change.


    Yeah, the difference between Neutralize and Fresh Start doesn't make much sense, especially since Neutral characters have better ways to convert their energy anyway.

    quote:


    It says "Normal Damage", not neutral damage.


    If by "Normal Damage" they DO mean "neutral damage", then it could be used to circumvert Fire's damage penalty against Earth. Either way, I don't see Meteorite as being a problem at 12 energy since it has the same damage ratio as standard 500's and a much inferior one to so many DoT cards, some of which are problems.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 12
    7/24/2013 0:04:19   
    TheSage
    Member

    		Actually that "Normal" means its not "Piercing" damage, it is still fire element.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
    7/24/2013 0:18:57   
    BJEBLE
    Member

    		I think that Cat Reflexes should be changed to 400 damage per turn/800 total because usually DoTs that only last less than four turns have a lower energy:damage ratio than DoTs that last longer(i.e. Storm)
    DF  Post #: 14
    7/24/2013 0:27:40   
    The Finnish Phoenix
    Member

    		I quite agree!

    quote:


    Actually that "Normal" means its not "Piercing" damage, it is still fire element.


    Speaking of elemental damage, I think I recall you saying something about ER being scrapped. Is that still true if it ever was?
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 15
    7/24/2013 1:34:30   
    megakyle777
    Member

    		I don't know if this works as balance, but I assume it does.

    I have talked to several people on this subject, and it is generaly agreed that the Sg Card Packs are not worth the money for what you get. One of two things need to be done in order to balance it more:

    1: Reduce the SG price to 1 SG. Now I know how unlikely this is, but hear me out. On Twitter Artix once said that 1 SG equals 50 AC. Meaning that you are effectively paying 200 SG for the CHANCE to get good cards. That's just too much SG in my and other people's opinion. WIth this change also, people will be MUCH more willing to spend SG on the cards, and you will find it more likely that people will spend 4 SG or more on themanyway due to the lower price and getting 20 cards instead of 5. Alternativly:

    2: Guarantee at least one special card per purchase. Now this seems the more likely option I will admit, (Although I think the first better) but the logic behgind this one is simple. If people KNOW they will get at least ONE decent card out of it all, it will not be so much of a waste even if they end upo with 4 100's, because they could still have that 1 Corupption or Life Drain. It might not be the special they WANT, but it's something.
    DF  Post #: 16
    7/24/2013 1:52:28   
    The Jop
    Member

    		I don't support anything like that which makes paying players have so much of an advantage. They could increase the chance, but definitely not guarantee anything.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 17
    7/24/2013 1:53:08   
    TheSage
    Member

    		@TFP : i never said elemental resist was being scrapped, but i did think that alignment might be getting scrapped, because of how many characters have been released already. But i also am not a mind reader and dont know exactly what Nulgath is thinking or planning so my guess is as good as yours.

    @megakyle : You are guaranteed at least 1 3* card with an increased chance to get 4* and 5* cards, but i do agree for 4SGs that 3* does not seem all that worth it.

    It is gambling that is all there is to it, you cant walk into a casino with $100 and be guaranteed you will walk out with $100. You take a chance you either win (get all 5* cards) or you lose (get all low common cards).

    < Message edited by TheSage -- 7/24/2013 1:56:56 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 18
    7/24/2013 1:55:08   
    survivor39
    Member

    		I think the cards are all fine.....*(personal opinion only)*

    ^@ megakyle I like the idea of 1 SG card pack! but it's probably not going to happen! lol....
    I think a reasonable price would be 2 SG for a SG card pack that does not guarantee a rare card..
    However for a SG card pack that guarantees a rare card, I think a reasonable price should be 3 SG.
    Post #: 19
    7/24/2013 2:02:17   
    megakyle777
    Member

    		Well, I'm not saying that both of these should be done. One of them is enough to balance the SG packs in my opinion. Personally, I would lower the price somewhat but then that's my opinion on the matter.

    Thesage: I must admit I'm not aware of how the system works, but I have known people to get 5 200's, or even in a few rare cases 5 100 peirces. They were generally not happy about spending 4 SG for those. Although I am glad we agree that it seems less worth it. Also, I am aware that it is a gamble, but I have known people to get 200 and 100, when according to your post they should at worst only begetting 500's and 500 defense.

    Now I am aware of how this works, I would recommend that SG packs be set at a chance to get 3 stars or more for all cards. That way, the worst that can be gotten is 500 or a defense cards, which noone can really complain about and increases the chance of specials anyway. Either that or jsust lower the price like I suggested earlier.

    < Message edited by megakyle777 -- 7/24/2013 2:10:44 >
    DF  Post #: 20
    7/24/2013 2:30:23   
    The Finnish Phoenix
    Member

    		Hey megakyle, if you want better cards for your SG's just don't buy SG packs.


    1. Load up on temporary x-boosts
    2. Play with a normal degree of activity
    3. Buy tons of gold packs since you're making up to 7x more
    4. ??????
    5. PROFIT
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 21
    7/24/2013 2:33:42   
    megakyle777
    Member

    		The Finnish Phoenix: You see, that's kinda my point. People don't see SG packs as worth it even with a higher chance, be it due to the 4 SG price or the fact that can still get 100's and 200's, and that's the balance issue here.
    DF  Post #: 22
    7/24/2013 2:36:18   
    The Finnish Phoenix
    Member

    		I suggest the abolition of SG packs so that the naive don't waste money.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 23
    7/24/2013 2:39:56   
    megakyle777
    Member

    		And then Oversoul loses money made on SG packs which is it's major money maker due to the natuere of the game. Abolition of them is not an option which is something I understand. Either a upgraded chance or a lowered price however is a option to resolve this. With a lower price of 1 SG people will be more willing to buy, whereas with a higher chance of getting specials it is perceived as more worthy.

    < Message edited by megakyle777 -- 7/24/2013 2:41:15 >
    DF  Post #: 24
    7/24/2013 2:46:31   
    TheSage
    Member

    		Need i also remind you guys that SG = Short cut? It is an option for those that do not have the time to farm 15k gold to buy a pack. The only advantage of spending SGs is a slightly higher chance for better cards. It was not meant to give the upper hand to people who spend SG, but instead as a way around a few hours farming for the gold. Buying SG CC packs does not = power, it is just quicker then farming gold.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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