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RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread

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1/23/2015 21:10:11   
Azan
Member

Against single enemies, yes, I think that class can be pretty much untouchable. The Dodge/Blind and the M/P/M skills are really good defences. I feel like a Cryptic. Of course, this class is not as offensively powerful as Cryptic, since it's Tier 2 and Cryptic is Tier 3, but I think defensively, it's equal.

The poisons are great too. I'll wait until the numbers, but I would've liked if one of them was a bit faster, like a lethal poison, dealing a big amount of dmg for 2-3 turns, with the two others slow but, in the long run, inflicting more damage (for long fights like bosses). The skill that uses poisons to do more damage looks very nice.

From what I've tested (and I haven't tested it long due to warring), it's a very good Tier 2 class.
Post #: 26
1/24/2015 1:38:55   
  133spider
Moderator


 Is it just me or is like most of the skill animations in the revamped ninja class just the fading animation?
Also, out of curiosity, why are there more than just one poison?

Overall, this class is very fun to use!
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 27
1/24/2015 1:51:26   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


 ^they stated this class is poison-based, pretty much about stacking the DoTs to do some extra work for you (and catch those sneaky ones who like pulling shields, blinds and dodges over too much), there is even a skill that deals higher dmg if the enemy have all DoTs running.

Also, about what Azan stated, the animations used on the skills were quite poor. The melee/acrobatic attacks were amazing, but....I kinda missed a few shurikens and kunais, you know...NINJA stuff? and maybe throwing smoke at the enemy rather than yourself all the time xD? The multi skill would be perfect if you were throwing kunais/shurikens at the enemies, I'm surprised you guys decided to do something quite unpredictable (which is also good).

If I could suggest a few animations...
-throwing a smokebomb at the enemy
-raising your hand and when you bring it down, an assortment of ninja sharp weapons rain down upon the targets (katanas, wakizashis, kunais, shurikens, scythes....)
-That flying kick from the Strider mecha in Mechquest would fit nicely.

< Message edited by ergotth -- 1/24/2015 1:54:47 >
DF AQW  Post #: 28
1/24/2015 5:30:57   
FrosticIce
Member

I really like the class better now, definitely an improvement from before. Thanks!

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 29
1/24/2015 7:35:51   
Mechajin
Constructively Friendly!


 The class is really good, with an amazing stun. I feel like it could really benefit well from a high damage build with a lot of LUK for those extra crits on your multi part attacks.


..One thing though. The seemingly google translated skill names are pretty irritating, so I'd like to ask if that was intentional?
DF  Post #: 30
1/24/2015 10:08:22   
Ash
Member
quote:

Also, about what Azan stated, the animations used on the skills were quite poor.

Alright, again since people seem to keep forgetting, have reasonable expectations. I have to use what's there. I can't add crazy animations, I overextended just adding the "attack while invisible" stuff. You're setting up expectations in your head that these are going to have brand new stuff and like all the rest, especially with DeathKnight, you get disappointed as such. STOP. Please, stop asking for new animation. They aren't going to happen. I can't make nice new ones happen beyond very basic stuff. The artists don't have time to do anything more than go back and touch up the art. We're probably going to have this same discussion, again, when the paladin art comes out and there's no new animations with it. I have to reuse animations, I have to make use of what's there, if the class doesn't have a lot of unique animation already you're going to see repeats.

Older classes are like that. Ninja more so than any others. New classes that Tomix made like Technomancer and FMA had one animation for all the skills so I didn't have to really use things over and over. That wasn't the case in the past. I have to stop this now before you all snowball further. It's not getting new animations, I may move some current animations around to try and change a few things up but this is what we have. It may not even get new art, and even if it does it won't have new animations.

quote:

The multi skill would be perfect if you were throwing kunais/shurikens at the enemies

I had to make a choice. Have people complain that the multi took forever to hit all targets or have people complain that I couldn't add new animations but all the attacks went quickly. I chose option B.

quote:

If I could suggest a few animations...

You can't because it won't happen.

quote:

I would've liked if one of them was a bit faster, like a lethal poison, dealing a big amount of dmg for 2-3 turns

I was trying to give you a chance to use Catalyst multiple times.

Mechajin - I don't speak Japanese and they're no worse than what the class had originally. I can just drop the name entirely and make them all english if it's that irritating.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 31
1/24/2015 10:27:07   
Alpha Centipede
Member

I'm liking the revamped Ninja skills. It's actually usable in battle now, unlike the old skillset. Having 3 poisons that make a skill stronger is an interesting mechanic, not to mention the 2 stuns the class has. I guess it all fits with the ninja theme.

Personally, I don't mind that there's no new art or animations for this revamp. I'm just glad that the skills are actually working well now.
DF  Post #: 32
1/24/2015 10:49:25   
garrigaisaac
Member

I think it needs a new look its to plan for me it needs some new art and stuff

< Message edited by garrigaisaac -- 1/24/2015 10:51:19 >
DF  Post #: 33
1/24/2015 13:59:04   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


 I know japanese, if you want to keep the names in japanese, I'd be really glad to help you, takes me around 2 seconds to come with a skill name, so it would be piece of cake for me =)

And I see your point with the animations, this revamp is focusing on strenght and balancing, we shouldn't be expecting too much of the aesthetics since they are more of a bonus when the artists are feeling inspired to boost the class's style. (and actualy, Paladin doesn't need new animations, it already have a vast array to combine, same happened with the necromancer, I didn't notice any new animation, and wasn't even expecting it, but I noticed you changed the animations from skills, switching one skill with the other in combinations that looked better than the old version) I'm really sorry if I sound spoiled ^^"'

Option B for the multi is a good option, putting that way. faster, and becoming invisible while all enemies take damage is actualy creepy...in a way that I really like =)
DF AQW  Post #: 34
1/24/2015 14:03:57   
Rianael
Member

I actually wanted more poison skills on this Ninja class or more skills that involved dropping an enemy's capability to hit me. On the note of "dropping an enemy's capability to hit, " ninja lore I've seen tend to portray them as one who excels in assassination techniques, finding weakpoints, insane dodging skills, and disguises. The stun skill doesn't really fit that. I would be completely fine if this class exchanged their stun skill with another blind skill but a higher cooldown.



Post #: 35
1/24/2015 14:07:24   
Neliux
Member

Didn't this class had a shuriken throwing animation? I kinda wish you add it back cuz the animations are quite monotonous, a lot of dissapering and attacking, or poisoning weapon and attacking, if the skill takes too long, isn't possible to just increse it's animation speed?

Anyway, as it is this class excels at crippling enemies in drawn out battles, not exactly what I expect from a Ninja class in particular, I tought this would be more of a burst damage class, attacking with high damage from stealth skills and being weak afterwards when stealth runs out or something.

But hey, it works now, it's not useless like before so that's definitely an improvement, kudos.

< Message edited by Neliux -- 1/24/2015 14:20:48 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 36
1/24/2015 14:43:55   
sayo101
Member

I really like this class. I've found it pretty fun to use so far.

And no offense (deep breath) but to those who keep on begging for new animations should tone it down/stop it. Ash has repeatedly stressed that new animations wouldn't be available. I understand that as players we should be allowed to voice our ideas and give feedback, but we also need to respect the limitations given when it comes to these revamps for older classes. Constantly ragging on Ash for not giving into your overzealous expectations is not going to help with anything. (might even discourage newer revamps?)

So shoutout to Ash for giving us a great revamp for an old class : ) It motivated me to go out and actually train for the armor!
Post #: 37
1/24/2015 14:56:56   
Ash
Member


 Rianael and Neliux are the perfect examples of how much of a cross roads this class was to redesign. I wanted to do both burst and poisons/crippling as both fit in with the ninja toolkit in various sources. I tried to fit a nice balance between them but I can always adjust. I've still got over a week and a half of feedback and I can always extend testing to get it right. It's only when people stop replying close to the end of the 2 week mark that I usually stop tinkering.

quote:

I know japanese, if you want to keep the names in japanese, I'd be really glad to help you, takes me around 2 seconds to come with a skill name, so it would be piece of cake for me =)

I'm actually going to switch the names to their English versions in the next update I do here on monday after feedback on skills over the weekend. I'll keep the names and might go back to the Japanese, and would ask for help translating the actual names, but since it's the only class to use another language on the skills it might be best just to standardize that into all one language.

quote:

On the note of "dropping an enemy's capability to hit, " ninja lore I've seen tend to portray them as one who excels in assassination techniques, finding weakpoints, insane dodging skills, and disguises.

Skills 13 and 14 are kinda close the assassination bit as I can get with the kit it's got. There's a "paralyze" skill that has a chance to stun and also lowers M/P/M so that's kinda the weak point. There's also a few skills that up your dodge, M/P/M, and nerfs BtH so it does have the dodge part. I was having trouble getting skill ideas I had to match up to animations I had. I wanted to do a whole "dummy" skill where you make 3 copies of yourself, or kinda "swoosh" out in a type of blur like you're shadow melding and 3 copies appear and those would raise your dodge through the roof for a couple turns but I couldn't get something like that animated. I usually have tons more skill ideas that I do ways to make them look right. =/

quote:

The stun skill doesn't really fit that. I would be completely fine if this class exchanged their stun skill with another blind skill but a higher cooldown.

I do have to include some basic skills. Shield, stun, multi, crit are the 4 big ones that almost every class has to have. I can branch out after that though. I could exchange the stun with a -300 to Bonus skill but even then Bonus has a different set of calcs than immobility and can be gotten around easier.

quote:

Didn't this class had a shuriken throwing animation? I kinda wish you add it back cuz the animations are quite monotonous, a lot of dissapering and attacking, or poisoning weapon and attacking, if the skill takes too long, isn't possible to just increse it's animation speed?

It did but it uses the "path to enemy" coding. I can't control the speed of that and it's slow, like yawn inducing slow. Doing that against 3 enemies usually gets more of a "why do we have to sit through this long animation?" complaint and I was trying to avoid that.

< Message edited by Ash -- 1/24/2015 14:59:12 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 38
1/24/2015 15:16:11   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician
quote:

I'm actually going to switch the names to their English versions in the next update I do here on monday after feedback on skills over the weekend. I'll keep the names and might go back to the Japanese, and would ask for help translating the actual names, but since it's the only class to use another language on the skills it might be best just to standardize that into all one language.

ok ^^
DF AQW  Post #: 39
1/24/2015 19:35:39   
Darius
Member

I like this new revamp, I really do. I kinda wish it had more crippling and less burst damage, tho, so it's not split between the two. Pirate can be the one with the burst damage, that way they're equal opposites.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 40
1/25/2015 3:47:04   
Kai Kazama
Member

I honestly like this new revamp. I loved this class when it first came out and the only reason why I stopped using it was because it felt under-powered. But now, using the class is a dream. Only thing I'd suggest is just a new art style like what was done for some of the other classes, maybe some class specific items to give it more of a ninja feel.

Other than that, the class is well done.
DF  Post #: 41
1/25/2015 4:57:07   
1997p3
Member

Liking the direction the revamped ninja is taking, seems like a fun class to use
Now...just to play around with it more....
AQ MQ  Post #: 42
1/25/2015 10:00:03   
TotalHavok114
Member

I think the ninja class held up really well when I tried it in the pvp arena. Love it so far.

_____________________________

I shall weave you a scarf of souls to keep that cold heart of yours warm.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 43
1/25/2015 10:13:12   
Ash
Member
quote:

maybe some class specific items to give it more of a ninja feel.

Gonna be getting a helm, cape, a weapon or two and a trinket as the war win reward. NDA's are also going to get up to level 80 versions of the helm, cape and weapon as a reward for winning the war. (something the other revamps didn't get)
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 44
1/25/2015 10:32:24   
deather98
Member

I wouldnt mind it in japanese for the skill names, and where its using poison dot now it makes the class more effective. I cant wait to see what kinds of trinkets, or weapons, accessories, etc for it.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 45
1/26/2015 17:17:17   
ad3022
Member

A helm, cape, possibly two weapons and a trinket?
I'm loving the re-vamp and am glad that we're getting new items for the class.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 46
1/26/2015 17:28:51   
Womba
Member

Haven't touched the class yet... so lemmie get this right before hand.

It's a class that focuses on letting enemies bleed out while avoiding damage now?

Womba Liek. As far as art goes... I only have a few rather reasonable gripes myself.

1.) Female version doesn't have pants.... like... I dunno how I can word that better.

2.) Male version needs sleeves. Looks like a Rambo-fied Ninja. That's NOT okay.

3.) Color should be changed from the greys to a dark blue. It's historically accurate that way. Legitimate Ninja's do not wear black. Actually... they wore colors similar to Navy Blue specifically.

< Message edited by Womba -- 1/26/2015 17:33:30 >
DF AQW  Post #: 47
1/26/2015 17:44:40   
Azan
Member

I do agree about the pantless woman version. I know Ash can't make art updates appear out of nowhere, but a ninja without pants is just weird. :P
Post #: 48
1/26/2015 18:30:29   
Ash
Member


 That's something that was noticed and is being worked on. Ragsrun is still learning class art stuff so it may be a while, but she did make comments about how it looked weird for the female to be in a skirt. Basically make them both look more sneaky. The helm and cape that matches that may take a while as well, so I may release matching art for the current class art and then release a second set later if she is able to complete the art refresh. The color is supposed to be black/gray though.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 49
1/26/2015 18:42:46   
Womba
Member

3rd complaint is the smallest thing... Ninja's are awesome it's just when they're portrayed as super-warrior Rambo slaughterhouses I have a serious problem with said Ninja. If a Ninja wants to wear a bleached white Gi in the dead of night that's their business. :P

But seriously... *Cough* I'm looking at you Ryu Hyabusa. Stop existing. Please.
DF AQW  Post #: 50
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