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RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread

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6/17/2018 9:46:05   
tomas185
Member

I'm perhaps just echoing general sentiment around here but w/e.

IMO BSW is borderline OP. The only reason it isn't completely unbalanced is that it's really good skills like BaltaelSynch and Soul Aegis (to a lesser extent) are balanced out by the rest of its skills being generally weaker, including some straight up duds:
- Soul Slice is basically only useful in fringe boss applications. Most of the time if you've got the boss down to 15% HP, you've got the fight in the bag.
- Concentration is just not worth the use, especially for the measly 2 turn duration.
- Soul Burst's mana DOT is useless in most fights, and the stun is unreliable.
- Soul Vacuum is just a weaker and more expensive version of Slash.

MSW on the other hand is much more balanced and well rounded.
- Mediation (replacing Concentration) patches up the mana-hungriness of the Weaver classes.
- Soul Banish adds one of the best blinds in the game, pushing the skill past gimmick territory.
- Soul Burst adds a very reasonable -All debuff, again pushing it past dud territory.
- Soul Vacuum's debuff is stronger and has inherited Soul Burst's old unreliable stun, so at the very least it's mana cost has been justified.

The previously dud skills now actually present some value. In addition the rest of it's already serviceable skills have had their effects strengthened, and the skillset as a whole have had their damages buffed a reasonable degree. The result is a very strong, well-rounded, but still balanced Tier 3 class where pretty much all of its skills have a viable place in a rotation, as a opposed to BSW with a few absolute standout skills and the rest of them being quite forgettable. But to prevent a potential BMSW from crossing into OP territory, the buff to MSW is going to have to be significantly neutered compared to the buff from SW to BSW. Lore-wise I think a BMSW should be stronger than a BSW, but BSW IMO is already pushing the limit, so that really isn't an option.

Perhaps some further buffs across the board to its skillset as a whole could be fit in (slightly more damage, slightly less cooldown, slightly enhanced skill effects etc). But anything major like copying BSW's BaltaelSynch is just too much. Even some of @Shiny_Underpants ideas like the second stun or health heal might be just a tad too generous. MSW is already in such a good spot, the only thing I could see BMSW inherit from BSW is the buff to Soul Aegis and MAYBE a lesser buff to Valor Impact.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 301
6/17/2018 10:23:35   
Cedrei
Member

If it is the lore we are worried about, we should nerf BSW and make BMSW about as good as BSW is now. Now making BMSW at all puts us in this situation, lorewise: "Hey, I have become a master SoulWeaver now, and now that I have gone through a lot of rigorous training I have finally become weaker because for some reason I forgot how to use this artifact". That is very odd to me, at least. Of course, this solution requires time from Dove to animate it and from Verly to rebalance both classes, but it's the best (only good?) solution if we want the lore behind it to not get weird, imo.
DF  Post #: 302
6/17/2018 19:21:49   
Shiny_Underpants
Member
 

 But the thing is, any buff, no matter how tiny, will give you a MSW that's stronger than Baltaelsoulweaver. Unless you have to chain stun, or fight bosses like Leorilla or Uthuluc, Master Soulweaver is already stronger.

Master soulweaver was the only non-DC class that could defeat Yllmar with absolute reliability. That is not to be sneezed at.
Conversely, you use both vacuum and synch together as BSW since they stack, and ensure your shield covers the gap in seal. MSW's seal has a stronger effect, but said effect is half the duration of SW (not that it matters, since stacking vacuum gives you -70% damage, and for the remaining cooldown you can banish--soul aegis--banish, and Seal is again available).
That's 30% damage for four turns (disregarding the blind, since it isn't always strong enough for some opponents), 100% for one, and no damage for six. 220% damage over eleven turns, or 200% over ten, compared to 1000% if you were to not defend at all. You take one fifth of incoming damage. It isn't a weak class (nor is it the strongest defensive class), but people forget about it since BSW has such a strong burst skill.

If the nuke was 500-600%, instant trigger like BSW's, and same cooldown as it normally has to charge and use, it would make no difference to the class's damage output. That's how strong its damage output already is, whether or not you use soulsynch's nuke.

@tomas185
The thing is, the stun already exists and can be used that way, but by chance only. It wouldn't buff it's potential (though you only have a 5% chance of getting 5 in a battle, if you lower that to 4 your odds increase to a realistic level). Healing would give it the potential of other defensive classes-- the problem is, if it can heal an average of 200% enemy damage over ten turns, and replenish the mana costs of all those skills, you are invincible. However other defensive classes are like that already, they just don't have strong offense. If such defense requires a max WIS max END build, the additional damage might account for lost stat damage.

I would think it pretty good with those on their own, although it'd be cool to be able to clear mobs faster.

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 6/17/2018 19:35:52 >
Post #: 303
6/18/2018 10:21:58   
tomas185
Member

I'm probably being too strict on the balance front. It's not like DF's classes are within exact parity to each other in the first place anyway. I'm just slightly wary that a potential BMSW might endure some prior drastic nerfs to fit the artifact buffs in, which I is inline with what the DragonLord artifacts do.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 304
6/18/2018 10:28:34   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


 BMSW could literally be current MSW and the current MSW could be nerfed a bit. But then BMSW would have to have some buffs like SoulSynch and maybe actual Annihilation from Slice rather than a DoT...
DF  Post #: 305
6/18/2018 10:34:18   
Shiny_Underpants
Member
 

 It's not really fair to offer a buff to a class, then nerf the original class instead; remember, MSW can be used by players below level 60 (and it is a good class for low levels). You may just as well have no artifact effect at all, in that case.
Post #: 306
6/18/2018 11:02:19   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


 I really didn't bother with MSW myself for until this conversation actually. I thought it was a mere reskin with better skill effects and "Retribution." separated from Valour Impact and Concentration healing Mana to make up for it's mana heaviness, but... now that I saw the revised effects of Slice, Burst and Vacuum... I AM impressed. I understand your view now.

I was thinking perhaps make the multi skill do 5 hits of 80% damage again like it earlier used to with regular SW with the artifact equipped. Those were the good old days. Oh, and Repentance is still somewhat mediocre...
DF  Post #: 307
6/18/2018 11:30:35   
SirVilmor
Member

Hello everyone

The ancient scythe of element is really cool!
It gave me the idea: "what would happen if I used it on the soulweaver armor?"
Welll... the element switch location is a bit off...
Its not on the soulweaver gauntlet location, but reallyyy close!
I was hoping the switch location was actually on the gauntlet, instead of the right side in the air.

Current Soulweaver element switch location: https://imgur.com/a/92bcyuA

Maybe this can be changed to be on the actual gauntlet? So we can click the gauntlet to switch the elements and not click in the air to switch the elements?
Post #: 308
6/18/2018 11:55:08   
tomas185
Member

@SirVilmor
I assume the devs have toyed with that idea previously, and the fact it hasn't been changed perhaps points to the difficulty/impossibility of implementing something like that.

Just for curiousity's sake, how do the Weaver classes stack up to other T3 classes? I can't even remember the whole roster of T3 classes. DL comes to mind as being much more defensive. Pyro from what I remember was also quite defensive with a focus on DOTs. I'm blanking on the rest.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 309
6/18/2018 12:17:41   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

I think there should have Fleshweaver / Chaosweaver armor discussion thread too (Even if are taking months and we don't have any news about it.....)

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 6/18/2018 12:22:26 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 310
6/18/2018 12:46:54   
Greyor_42
Member

@tomas185

Regular Soulweaver is actually a tier 2 class, not tier 3. Master Soulweaver is in the upper reaches of T3. As for other T3 classes, that would be every DC class(including Ascended Chickencow but excluding dimensional transphaser), Dragonlord, Every calendar class, the Ataelan Base classes, Evolved PumpkinLord and DeathKnight.

@Shadow X Ascendant

They most likely will get their own threads once they are actually added to the game, and no sooner.
DF  Post #: 311
6/18/2018 13:25:35   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

@Greyor_42 and Calendar Classes? As i suggested some time ago, isn't more easy to create Tier 5 for DmK and on 4 we place BMSW, FW, CW, Calendar Classes....?

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 6/18/2018 13:27:41 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 312
6/18/2018 23:39:35   
Kurtz96
Member

A problem might be that there is no room for another tier between DmK V2 and Tier 3.

Meaning you would have to make a class that is weaker than DmK V2 and stronger than MSW/Riftwalker/Cryptic. I don't know how that can be done in a meaningful and clear cut way.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 313
6/19/2018 0:06:43   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


 Calendar Classes are about as strong as BSW, MSW, DK and Ascended ChickenCow in general cases, and considering each calendar class individually, they all have their strengths and weaknesses against the DC classes, hence justifying their Tier 3. Tier 5 isn't necessary.

Plus there already is a FW discussion thread also along with a SoulSmith thread... but it's not an armor discussion.
DF  Post #: 314
9/24/2019 22:15:35   
kkins3579
Member
 

 This might be a bit repetitive as I'm not aware of all the post on this thread but, I was wondering if anyone else on the forum would agree with me that Baltael's Aventail shpuld also apply to Master Soulweaver as well, not just the nasic version for they are very similar and closely related.
Post #: 315
9/30/2019 13:18:12   
DD.CLYDESTER
Member

@kkins3579 do try to read the previous replies too, we're already discussing on how to put it without making it too OP
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 316
8/29/2020 12:54:58   
Kylorei
Member

here i go rewriting my message cause I accidentally logged out

Is this a necro on thread? I hope not, I'm just really excited for MSW buffs/rework and wanna share my ideas.
I think MSW should no longer be a "Glass Cannon" because it has a very defensive playstyle. ChaosWeaver is the definition of a GOOD glass cannon. MSW is a contradiction.
I completely agree with Shiny_Underpants and tomas185:

quote:

I thought perhaps Master Soulweaver's artifact should increase its defensive capabilities...perhaps longer effect times and longer cooldowns, to make up for stronger retribution or soulsynch skills-- giving Seal's debuff an effect lasting 7-10 turns, and cooldown of 15

MSW debuffs should last longer at the cost of mana and longer cooldowns. In addition, SoulSynch should add additional effects to skills.
quote:

The only reason it[BSW] isn't completely unbalanced is that it's really good skills ... are balanced out by the rest of its skills being generally weaker, including some straight up duds

SW should have the current MSW skills with shorter cooldowns and lower manacost. Damage output could be nerfed slightly in exchanged (?) because BSW will still have stronger burst.
This will make SW a less mediocre class on it's own, while keeping its already OP skills (Balt-ValourImpact will be 6 hits with 200 CRIT borrowed from MSW)


    The stronger debuffs should last longer in exchange for longer cooldowns and manacost.


    Purge should allow for an extra action, while applying a new status effect called [bold][Purge[/bold]:
    removes every other status effect besides itself for 3 turns.
    It's so annoying when you waste 1 turn of removing a DoT/debuff, only to have the enemy apply another DoT/debuff. Even more annoying when it's the same DoT/debuff. By removing SoulSynch/SoulAegis with Purge, you are sacrificing damage increase and stronger defensive tools to remove potential debuffs


BMSW should function the same as BSW except instead of buffing Valour Impact, it buffs Purge even more.

    [(Balt) Purge]: Purges the body of weakness, fatigue, and wounds
    Heal for 15%
    Reduces cooldowns on every other skill by 6
    Purges every other status effect for 3 turns, but does NOT allow for an extra action


Down below is my google doc for my brainstorming. What do you think? I just want love for my main :)

My google doc on MSW changes




< Message edited by Kylorei -- 10/10/2020 13:08:29 >

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AQ DF AQW  Post #: 317
8/29/2020 18:33:18   
TFS
Helpful!


 ^While I wholeheartedly support the sentiment that more non DC/Calendar classes should be given viability comparable to their premium counterparts, I don't think theorycrafting to such a degree of specificity is really called for by either this thread or this forum. But if you must, I'd recommend consistently establishing durations/cooldowns as the plausibility of your ideas is difficult to assess otherwise
DF  Post #: 318
8/29/2020 22:19:40   
Kylorei
Member

Right right, I don't wanna sound demanding or anything. Just wishful-thinking that Verlyrus could Consider some of these ideas :c
They can adjust my ideas as they like

Purge:
Additional Action
Does not remove Soul Synch damage boost or Shield (Very important for a 4 turn shield

Soul Vacuum:
Damage reduction reduced to 20%
Inflicts a blind of -50 to enemy


BMSW skills pleaseeee

Balt Aegis: 4 turns of 200 M/P/M at the cost of larger cooldown of 12 turns

Balt Valour Impact: 6 hits of 66% damage, but it has -200 CRIT and +200 bonus. It combines well with Soul pierce since it also has a bonus on attack

Balt Full Synchro Beam: 5 hits of 200% at the cost of 8 turn cooldown



I think Pirate does a better job at what MSW should do. Pirate has a better purge (It heals as well), multiple blinds like MSW but lower MP costs and shorter cooldowns.
Soul Vacuum should have a blind so it can become a powerful shield if combined with Soul Seal




< Message edited by Kylorei -- 11/3/2020 21:10:46 >

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AQ DF AQW  Post #: 319
8/31/2020 8:42:29   
ProbablyCallum
Member

Please stop
DF  Post #: 320
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