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RE: =ED= Official Tactical Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread

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6/2/2014 22:00:18   
suboto
Member

Also reduce frenzy support requirement or change it to strength or nothing at all support required for a str based move isnt necessary
Epic  Post #: 26
6/2/2014 22:29:39   
GearzHeadz
Member

Support requirements are usually on str moves to prevent abuse...
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 27
6/2/2014 22:52:53   
suboto
Member

well of understandable do u agree with my other stuff?
Epic  Post #: 28
6/3/2014 0:24:19   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 My suggestion:

Add a tech requirement to frenzy, and change stun grenade into a weaker form of bunker that still has the crit chance and defense penetration, but a chance to stun to compensate for the weaker base damage. It'll also scale with tech. This'll give TLM more of a tech specialization and give it some unique attributes as well.
Epic  Post #: 29
6/8/2014 10:00:55   
King Bling
Member

Exploding penguin i totally agree to r point!!!
Post #: 30
8/11/2014 12:02:40   
xxxromanxxx4
Member
 

 I have a level 35 TLM and I love the class and will never switch (mainly due to insufficient funds) because it is the only class where people respect you for playing an 'underpowered' class...

Although I have made some very effective builds that get 70% win rates at level 35.

One such is the surgical strike - poison build

A key to making a surgical strike build is to give your character 900 or so energy to be able to poison and also surgical. Have poison at level 7 ish and 1st more just poison them. Next decide is draining their energy will prevent a heal, if not just attack. Then as the poison drains their health they will heal then BAM surgical strike and you then have 4 turns to finish them off before they heal again

Edit: new idea: replace a skill with a new one with a name yet to be decided....


skill description: makes target deal x% damage for next attack (must be offensive otherwise effect stays)

x can be modified by a skill and the attack will deal initial damage...

like from levels 1-10 x can vary from 70-30 ish

Posts merge. Please don't double post. ~Mecha

< Message edited by WhiteTiger -- 8/11/2014 12:02:40 >
Post #: 31
8/17/2014 1:07:28   
noremako
Member

Give Reflex Boost with energy regain back to TLM.

As in, the reflex boost that gave back energy on being hit. This would help his Energy manipulation problem, while still holding his tankiness, scaling with support and enhancing Stun Grenade.

Get rid of Field Commander. Strength means nothing for TLM, its useless.



Get rid of Atom Smasher, give him either EMP grenade since TLM doesn't have much strength, needs unblockables and it scales with Technology which is more important for a TLM or Adrenaline Rush. Also, EMP would mean 3 grenades ^.^

Adrenaline Rush would be actually amazing on TLM since he is a tank.

For comparison, see here:

Mercenary has a high strength build so he does 500 base damage with his strike, and also has adrenaline rush. Fighting an enemy with 300 defense, if he rages he ignores 135 defense. Thus, he deals 335 damage and 167.5% the damage before. The extra 67.5% damage is useless for him since its less damage then 2 strikes, consuming energy as well.

However, for Tactical Mercenary, he has a tank build like usual, dealing 400 base damage on strike, also having adrenaline rush. Fighting the same enemy with 300 defense, if he rages the 135 defense ignored means he deals 235 damage and 235% the damge before. The extra 137.5% is good since it deals more damage then two strikes alone, while consuming at the most 210 energy.

Post #: 32
8/18/2014 20:40:02   
Stonehawk
Member

@Exploding Penguin
I disagree, Tactical Mercs are meant to play somehow defensively and strategically. Giving them an offensive tech skill will make them abuse tech with surgical and that skill

@noremako

quote:

Give Reflex Boost with energy regain back to TLM.

As in, the reflex boost that gave back energy on being hit. This would help his Energy manipulation problem, while still holding his tankiness, scaling with support and enhancing Stun Grenade.

Get rid of Field Commander. Strength means nothing for TLM, its useless.



Get rid of Atom Smasher, give him either EMP grenade since TLM doesn't have much strength, needs unblockables and it scales with Technology which is more important for a TLM or Adrenaline Rush. Also, EMP would mean 3 grenades ^.^

Adrenaline Rush would be actually amazing on TLM since he is a tank.


I kinda agree with that.
EMP grenade, that was one of my suggestions, but then there won't be any club only moves.
Adrenaline Rush sounds interesting, but I see no room for it.
Reflex Boost instead of Field Commander would be great, but there's already mineral armor to protect against melee attacks... maybe removing it to put adrenaline hush?

I was thinking of Maul instead of Double strike, just to make it have a club skill (which is pretty useful), but then there will be 2 stun attacks... well we got a problem here, I guess.

But maybe having 2 stun attacks would encourage people to BE a tactical AND to use a club on a tactical, if they want this advantage.
Also Blood Mages won't be the only OPed class with the most powerful skills together
(bludgeon = low costs + high damage // mark = health gain on attack for 3 turns // Parasite = a bit energy gain/steal for 3 turns // cannon = energy bunker, ignore and crit!)

I know making all those changes together would make tactical unbeatable for sure, but maybe making only some of them would balance and make them have a chance against the other classes.


AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 33
8/19/2014 3:35:35   
noremako
Member

The skill tree TLM has doesn't synergise at all.

I think alot of skills need replacement. The idea of Blood Shield balances itself. The tankier you want to be the bigger the sacrifice is.

Atom Smasher and Field Commander need to go. They exist because new skills were introduced and EpicDuel didn't want to waste ideas.

EMP is the only old skill I feel is balanced.

quote:


I kinda agree with that.
EMP grenade, that was one of my suggestions, but then there won't be any club only moves.
Adrenaline Rush sounds interesting, but I see no room for it.
Reflex Boost instead of Field Commander would be great, but there's already mineral armor to protect against melee attacks... maybe removing it to put adrenaline hush?

I was thinking of Maul instead of Double strike, just to make it have a club skill (which is pretty useful), but then there will be 2 stun attacks... well we got a problem here, I guess.

But maybe having 2 stun attacks would encourage people to BE a tactical AND to use a club on a tactical, if they want this advantage.
Also Blood Mages won't be the only OPed class with the most powerful skills together
(bludgeon = low costs + high damage // mark = health gain on attack for 3 turns // Parasite = a bit energy gain/steal for 3 turns // cannon = energy bunker, ignore and crit!)

I know making all those changes together would make tactical unbeatable for sure, but maybe making only some of them would balance and make them have a chance against the other classes.
/quote]

It matters not club requirements. The thematic loss of 'no club requirements' is much less of a burden then a huge balance issue ruining a class demographic.

Adrenaline Rush would replace Atom Smasher. The same purpose is served, to ruin strategies and soften up enemies. It would also provide some form of synergy to TLM's build, something argued alot about today.

Frenzy should be 20% ignore. It could be club only if that problem is so incredibly bad.

Ugh, the 'Mineral Armor'/Reflex Boost problem. I see your point, it would be literal invincibility from physical damage for a few rounds. Perhaps Mineral Armor would not be stackable with reflex boost, or Plasma Armor/Mineral Armor could be switched around? Blood Shield being rid of would make room for this.

I don't think Atom Smasher has a place. I'd rather replace it with Adrenaline Rush with EMP, since TLM doesn't use Tech too much. Also, Blood Shield and Field Commander need to go.

Post #: 34
8/22/2014 4:12:07   
kittycat
Member

@noremako: The TLMS tree does synergize, but not as well as the other classes. Mineral Armor and Blood Shield provide good defensive shields, Field Commander and Frenzy have good synergy together, and Double Strike is alright. My only issue with the tree is Stun grenade, where they need a specialized grenade for themselves since it's power is essentially weak compared to overload.
AQ MQ  Post #: 35
8/22/2014 8:28:27   
kosmo
Member
 

 i would just remoove 1 turn of cooldown from frenzy, bringing it down to 2 turns (the cooldown of blodgeon), this change would allow a regular strenght build to use it 2-3 times per battle at lvl 1-2, quite balanced if i think of it.
Epic  Post #: 36
8/22/2014 9:37:04   
Mother1
Member

@ Kosmo

While Bludgeon has a two turn cool down and Frenzy has 3 Frenzy has the HP gain back tag which actually justifies this tag. Strength builds for the majority of classes are anything but unbalanced due to the fact that these builds can already put out non stop damage output without fail.

Tactical Merc already can pull off a strong poison strike build due to strength affecting frenzy, toxic grenade (Damage) and double strike. high damage output, with poison work with and a 2 turn life gain move outside of MOB? That would make this strength build even more overpowered.
Epic  Post #: 37
8/22/2014 12:16:02   
kosmo
Member
 
quote:

Strength builds for the majority of classes are anything but unbalanced due to the fact that these builds can already put out non stop damage output without fail.


tht s why i used the regular strenght build as example, and whatever, once the community gets to an higher rank u will see 5 focus dominating again;


i doubt this could overpower strenght build, since duble strike is pretty usless, frenzy has a support req. and poison is effective indipendenly from ur strenght (and can turn into a waste of energy if cured by a low lvl heal)


< Message edited by kosmo -- 8/22/2014 12:17:52 >
Epic  Post #: 38
8/23/2014 12:25:33   
Stonehawk
Member

@Mother
quote:

While Bludgeon has a two turn cool down and Frenzy has 3 Frenzy has the HP gain back tag which actually justifies this tag. Strength builds for the majority of classes are anything but unbalanced due to the fact that these builds can already put out non stop damage output without fail.


While frenzy has energy gain:
- Bludgeon can connect with blood mark (blood mages) giving a lot of health
- Blood commander can connect with berserker and other strong strength-based skills, giving lots of health also.
- Those 2 examples last a lot more than Frenzy, which is only 1 turn of HP gain and 3 turns cooldown, so I think it would make sense.

I would say +10 EP costs and -1 turn cooldown would make it balance with other classes.

Also, I think the biggest problem is havin 3 buffing skills, having not enough room for unbuffing skills or something powerful. I think removing field commander and mineral armor to add reflex boost and something else would be nice.
We also have to consider that Tactical already has the most nerfed skills together.

1- Battery has 1 more cooldown than all the other energy drain/regain skills, making it nearly impossible to get energy back (they only have it because of passive skills removing and reroute was replaced with it, but since all skills can take energy, it's a lot weaker than it used to be)
2- Stun grenade probably had lower damage than other stun skills because bounties had reflex to boost it, but tactical doesn't, at the moment.
3- Artillery Strike is already the weakest multi in the game. Multis are already nerfed when hitting 2 targets 'cause of higher costs and lower damage, and being improved with a not-defending stat (support) makes it nearly impossible to be used.
4 and 5- Enough said below.
quote:

Atom Smasher and Field Commander need to go. They exist because new skills were introduced and EpicDuel didn't want to waste ideas.


I think those are some reasons why no one is tactical mercenary anymore, except those without credits/varium to change or EpicReborn.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 39
8/24/2014 1:05:01   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

^That is one of the reasons. My main is a TLM, and I don't have anywhere near enough credits to change class. So as a TLM, and due to them being the weakest class right now. I'm at a large disadvantage against most other classes. When I first became a TLM, I was OP because all TLMs were OP at first, but then they kept getting nerfed and now they're underpowered. Their skill tree has no synergy at all and they don't have any good offensive moves except for poison, which cannot kill the target and can easily be cured by field medic in one turn. Leaving us without any good means of offense and forcing all of us to either go balance/tank, or do an all or nothing sup or str build which still fails (especially in comparison to the regular str and sup Merc builds). Imo, I suggest Field Commander gets replaced with Blood Commander and Atom Smasher is replaced with Static Smasher. Even with battery backup, it is very hard for us to regain energy since it has such a large cooldown and pretty much everyone has very powerful energy draining skills (cores included) that they can use to instantly get rid of all of your energy right after you use it. I also think poison should be able to kill, it's already much weaker ever since field medic could be used to kill it. So making it able to kill would not only benefit most classes, but TLMs specifically who are very weak offensively.

< Message edited by IsaiahtheMage -- 8/24/2014 1:06:00 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 40
8/24/2014 1:08:59   
Mother1
Member

@ isaiahthemage

So happens when Static Smash and Blood commander becomes overpowered for Mercenary and they need to nerf these moves? This means that Tactical mercenary may be ok with these moves would also get said nerf.

That is the danger of classes sharing moves. When one class takes a nerf viva their moves the other class will get said nerf. The same can be said with buffs.
Epic  Post #: 41
8/24/2014 7:19:28   
noremako
Member

Instead of failing to balance due to a lack of club requirement skills, introduce a new level 10 skill instead of Surgical Strike.

TLM has a bad tree since to have any offense at all he needs at least 2 stats. Dex build allows nothing but Stun Grenade. Strength build has double strike and frenzy purely, neither of which are effective as primary damage dealers. Support? The only skill is Artillery. Technology is TLM's off stat, he doesn't use it. So his highest damage coming from Tech doesn't make any sense and underpowers him. A toxic grenade build fails because its so unreliable as a damage source.

A new level 10 skill could have a club requirement, but seriously, it doesn't need to. It should be a Dex or Support skill without a doubt.

Also, I repeat, replace Field Commander with Reflex Boost, but it gives back energy on being hit.


Something along the lines of

"Flashy Name"

-Deals physical damage
-Drains 20% of damage dealt (doesn't steal, just drain like Atom Smasher does)

Level 1: 320 energy cost
Level 10: 590 energy cost

This would be good not only since it creates more synergy for

Atom Smasher is redundant since its a Static Smash except costing about 500 more energy. Getting rid of it, replacing it with Adrenaline Rush. This level 10 replaces it.
Post #: 42
8/25/2014 11:41:17   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Im not suggesting a nerf for classes, all im saying is that Field Commander and BC should be switched between these classes.

First let me point out the real source of the problem: You gave Mercenaries the ability to get 40%+ HP Regain along with a 55+ Str Buff and a 1 turn Warm-UP skill that (when the strength is added in) rivals that of a Max Massacre and a Mana regen skill that improves with strength....

I'm not saying this class should be nerfed because I am the sort of player that loves the story behind the class and the first word that comes up in the merc description is
quote:

Strong
.

What I am saying is that this skill is a great skill! Please, do not nerf it! Instead just monitor it's overall effect by giving this skill to tlms and giving mercs Field Commander.

Lets be honest, what are you gonna complain about if tlms get this skill? They can spam double strike? Sure, 1 turn cool down so it only makes sense to spam it but we know it won't work since every merc has tried that already. Spam poison? You can only regain HP off of the initial shock of poison. Spam Strike? Everyones doing it already. Spam artillery strike? Supports a useless stat at the moment. People only use it to go first in matches or to get 5 focus/meet some requirements. Spam Stun Grenade? Valid point but this skill increases with DEX, not STR.

Now the positives is that it will actually boost atom smasher, give Frenzy the boost that it has needed for a long time and with battery back up having a 4/5 turn cooldown then this skill will actually be balanced with this class.

Please think about. This will be a huge step forward in balancing the classes
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 43
8/25/2014 12:00:16   
kaierti
Banned


 Change Grenade Toxic cool down from 2 to 3
Post #: 44
8/25/2014 18:45:04   
kosmo
Member
 

 field commander is just usless, in tht way mercs would have been left whit no aviable dmg (basically a tlm whitout poison granade).

why couldn t we just buff some of the current aviable strategy of tlm insted of introducing hardly predictable changes tht affect more classes at once.

kaiereti
i rlly can t understand ur problem whit ch's and tlm's poisons, they are pretty counterable, and when they spend 560 energy to use it twice, u cant expect to be able of healing on both.

< Message edited by kosmo -- 8/25/2014 18:46:27 >
Epic  Post #: 45
8/25/2014 18:57:45   
Mother1
Member

@ the berserker killer

quote:

Ok your positives are way off.

For one Field commander gives more of a strength boost than Blood commander due to field commander not having a secondary effect. This means if we gave Tactical merc blood commander their atom Smasher would get less of a boost instead of more due to the secondary effect. Not only this but the secondary effect would not be added with Atom Smasher.

Now on frenzy getting boost. No it wouldn't. Blood commander doesn't stack with moves that already have life gain properties. This means that if I used frenzy with blood commander the blood commander effect wouldn't be added, plus for the boost of strength Field commander would once again be better due to it giving more strength than blood commander once again.

Also this wouldn't balance the classes but make balance worse. For you choose to ignore the fact that this would power up strength spam builds which would not only have the ability to deal massive damage with strike builds and poison, but now add consistent life steal to the class as well? Not to mention Tactical merc will now have 3 ways of getting back health outside of field medic in the form of frenzy, surgical strike, and the new added blood commander.

Now I have to ask. If Tactical's merc's themselves don't want field commander due to it being outshined by blood commander, why should we give it to mercenaries in the first place? This would be nerfing mercs unjustly while overpowering strength Tactical merc due to them having a content way to get health back for 4 turns in addition to having several moves that work with strength.


My answer to this from the previous thread.

Epic  Post #: 46
8/25/2014 19:28:50   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 1) Tactical merc is more of a tactical class, hence the name, so I don't mean a direct boost to atom smasher but instead that move may actually get to be used w/o the feeling of wasting a turn.

2) It would boost frenzy in the sense that tlm can get 4 turns of HP Regen then 1 more turn (frenzy). I didn't think that needed explaining.

3) Frenzy? Would be a valid point if the Cooldown made any sense whatsoever. It's clearly too long and costs a ton to get a good amount of hp back. Surgical Strike? It's a third tier move like the rest. So they have 2 ways right now. Big deal. Meanwhile on the mage side we have Heal Looping. Limits? There are none.

4) It's more fitting to mercs because they have insane instant skills that grant them an average of 500 hp returned by their second attack.....


Now I ask you in a simple yes or no answer (If you want to add on your explanation then just make the Yes or No in Bold). Do you think Merc with BC is the ultimate abuse of strength in Epicduel at this moment?
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 47
8/25/2014 19:40:25   
kosmo
Member
 

 its really tht difficult to imagine what a crap merc would be whitout bc or how broken tlm would be whit it?

how can u assume field commander and blood commander are similiar skills, if u had tested both recently(and i did) u would of seen how counterable and usless field commander is, or how stupid and op blood commander is.

to answer to ur points.
n1 i didnt mention anything about atom (it can drain 450energy whit regular str build)

n2 tht just makes no sence

n3 i agree

n4 i cant understand this,but if u are sayng tht mercs are op due to bc, i agree.






< Message edited by kosmo -- 8/25/2014 19:47:23 >
Epic  Post #: 48
8/25/2014 19:42:37   
Mother1
Member

@ the berserker killer

For your first point Field commander can very well do the same thing. Why because it also boosts strength which in turn would power up atom smasher. Even more than Blood commander. So please explain to me how does field commander feel like you are wasting a turn where as blood commander isn't?

Also 5 turns of life steal? due to blood commander and frenzy? This is just asking for a strength build to abuse this with poison to destroy their foes. It would go like this.

Blood commander, Toxic grenade, Strike or gun, strike or gun, strike or gun, Frenzy.

The strength build using this would not only gain a huge amount of rage due to having high strength, but also gain back health for 5 turns, while their opponent is being eaten away by the poison. If this doesn't kill them the rage attack and constant damage output will.
Epic  Post #: 49
8/25/2014 21:03:51   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 @Kosmo: No offense but I'm confused at to who you are talking to. I didn't respond to anything you said.

@Mother: I noticed you didn't answer my question. Its cool. Meanwhile Mercs can strike for days doing damage equivalent to a lvl 5 bludgeon constantly and getting hp regain more impressive and longer than mark of blood. But that's no big deal though.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 50
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