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=ED= Official Cyber Hunter Balance Discussion Thread

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3/16/2014 16:28:33   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 With so much interest in developing and discussing balance in ED, it has become apparent that we need to organise! So, in order to make things easier on everyone, from developers to players, we are going to organise some specific threads that will hopefully make discussing this simpler and more effective.

Cyber Hunter Balance Discussion Thread

This is where you can discuss everything balance related to the Cyber Hunter class.
Got a skill that doesn't fit? Perhaps a combo that proves to be too strong and abusable. Discuss it here with everyone!

A few guidelines before we start:
  • All AE Forum rules are still in effect.
  • No comparisons between other classes. You can use certain facts to build your case on, but please do not turn this into a 'CH vs X' thread.
  • Everyone's opinions are just that. Opinions. If you don't agree, that's fine. But, there is no need for rule breaking behaviour.
  • If you see a rule-breaking post, please refer to The Trinity: 1.) Report it 2.) Ignore it 3.) Move on. We would rather you have fun with the discussion and let the Forum Staff worry about rules broken.
  • Constructive Criticism is meant to improve something, not rant, whine and complain to be heard. If you are going to criticise, do so with the intent to give help, not tear down.

    Happy Discussing!



    < Message edited by Battle Elf -- 8/6/2018 19:11:01 >
    • AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 1
    3/16/2014 16:32:35   
    DarkDevil
    Member

    		wow , thanks Therril Oreb , it was a choas in here.

    speaking about cybers , gonna start this with giving spotlight on the problems:

    1. class can't survive without str as there is only 2 damaging skils that doesn't use str and there is no snyrgy between them meaning there can't be a build without str.

    2. static charge in its current form encourages str abuse as it gives the player a free auto-hit attack every couple of turns , also have no benfit to non-str builds making them have no way to regain energy (cores aren't a point here)

    3. shadow arts has a very low effect at least compared to the fact it costs a turn to cast aside from its high energy cost and the high supp requirement.
    assuming someone does 700 damage at you and you have 300 armor it will only reduce 110 damage

    4. poison blades has no advantage over poison grenade , but poison grade has no requirement while poison blades has two.

    5. malfunction needs tons of supp before it becomes effective which is why it is now used as a distraction than real debuff.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 2
    3/16/2014 16:59:30   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		^and.... most of these problems are solved from my thread build diversity x10 , except i'm being very vague.
    What a CH skill tree could look like w/ this:

    "free skills" (20) points available for investment at level cap)
    {Plasma Armor}-{Static Charge*}-{Shadow Arts}-{Static Grenade}
    "cost skills" (25 points available for investment at level cap)
    {Heal}-{EMP*}-{Static Kick*}-{Defense Matrix}
    {Malfunction}-(Multi Shot)-{Venom Strike}-{Plasma Surge*}
    {Plasma Grenade*}-(Massacre)-{Infrastructure Breakdown*}

    Plasma Armor and Shadow Arts are pre-Passives to Actives
    Static Charge*(needs to be reworked...possibly a static amount based on weapon damage)
    EMP*(now does 50% gun damage along with drain)
    Static Kick*(Cheap shot with 20% energy drain)
    Plasma Surge*(Multi-shot scaling on tech)
    Plasma Grenade*(needs to be redone)
    Infrastructure Breakdown*(the second ultimate, does physical damage based on dex and has a poison effect based on support)

    Cost skills addendum: Instead of having energy costs set by increasing amounts of 10's or 20's, why not 5's and also, instead of having energy cost increasing with each investment, how about increased effect without energy increases or energy reduction with same effect.
    Also notice how every stat is viable for a build with this new skill tree, even energy and support.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 3
    3/16/2014 17:22:36   
    Noobatron x3000
    Member

    		My biggest problems with cyber hunters are as follows

    -Its only emp costs mana , Its only way of gaining mana forces strength investment .

    -Bloodmages have fire scythe and bludgeon
    -mercs have bunker
    -tlms and bh's have stun grenade
    - where is the ch physical option , i'm not referring to skills that use your weapon's damage type , as anyway it makes more sense to have a energy primary on a cyber.
    Post #: 4
    3/16/2014 18:01:23   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Well, I have few suggestions of my own. Malfunction isn't really that good for CHs, due to so-so synergy with the rest of the skilltree, especially with defensive builds which won't have a lot of Support. Not mentioning defensive build + CH doesn't really go together. Another suggestion is a nerf-buff to Static Charge.

  • [CH] Replace Malfunction with a new debuff, which increases any incoming damage source whilst your opponent is debuffed. Doesn't improve with anything.
    • Works under the same mechanics as Mark of Blood, so your ally (2v2) can also take advantage of it.
    • Damage boost is applied after defenses.
    • Gives the class nice synergy with skills, and allows any build to take advantage of it.


  • [CH] Nerf-buff Static Charge by giving it 50% defense ignore for the Energy return only, but deals total base weapon damage.
    • Works in the same way as it does now - can't be blocked, crit, nor raged.
    • Total base weapon damage is the lowest value for your Primary damage.
    • Example of how the Energy return works:
      • If your opponent has 300 Def/Res, you ignore half of it (150). It does NOT increase the initial damage.
      • Assuming the above, if you deal 200 Damage on 300 Def/Res, you add the Def/Res ignored to the "damage" and then multiply by SC's percentage.
      • With L10 SC: 200 + 150 = 350 * 0.7 = 245 EP returned (and 200 Damage dealt).


  • [CH] Buff Plasma Grenade to the same level as Stun Grenade.
    • -30 EP cost at all levels.
    • At the same time, BH's Stun Grenade needs +10 damage boost to match Plasma Grenade.
    • Furthermore, Plasma Grenade needs the same scaling as Stun Grenade (from +10 damage from 26, not 28 Tech).


    Improved Energy return from Static Charge makes it better for CHs to control their Energy. Making it use base value only makes it deal less damage - and lowering the EP return a little - but makes it less overpowered for Strength abusers (damage), but coupled with defense ignore for the EP return, it will return much more Energy and be a viable move for non-Strength builds (or those who just don't abuse Strength).

    The debuff would benefit your ally in 2v2, which is always nice, and having fixed %'s means it can't be abused by any build, especially when the damage boost is calculated after the defenses. With buffed Plasma Grenade, it could make a viable semi-defensive build, because it improves with Tech + MultiShot improved with Dex, so yeah, benefits everyone.

    Grenades are self-explanatory.
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 5
    3/16/2014 18:04:54   
    Xendran
    Member

    		Currently cuber hunter is extremely limited and will have to pretty much deal with the limitation until a full revamp is done. The class needs some serious work to truly be an advanced cyber hunter. Until then, to help with some of their unpredictability: 

    Static Charge
Adds a percentage of the damage you inflict to your energy;
Static Charge cannot be blocked or grant rage points;
If static charge were to deal a critical strike or rage, the additional damage will be added to your energy rather than dealt as damage.
33% of the targets Defence/Resistance is added to your energy pool

Weapon: All

    Level 1:  33% Damage to Energy 
    Level 2:  36% Damage to Energy 
    Level 3:  39% Damage to Energy 
    Level 4:  42% Damage to Energy 
    Level 5:  45% Damage to Energy 
    Level 6:  48% Damage to Energy 
    Level 7:  51% Damage to Energy 
    Level 8:  54% Damage to Energy 
    Level 9:  57% Damage to Energy 
    Level 10: 60% Damage to Energy


    I HEAVILY suggest giving the Cyber Hunter section a thorough read-through Here.
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 6
    3/16/2014 18:08:43   
    dfo99
    Member
     
    quote:

    No comparisons between other classes.


    how do a balance post without comparisons? and why do comparisons is a problem?

    < Message edited by dfo99 -- 3/16/2014 18:09:11 >
    Post #: 7
    3/16/2014 18:10:05   
    Ranloth
    Banned
    quote:

    how do a balance post without comparisons?

    You can create separate thread to compare classes, or rather specific type of skills - such as EP drain/return skills.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 8
    3/16/2014 18:12:18   
    Therril Oreb
    Legendary AdventureGuide!


    		 Comparing classes is assuming that all classes are the same on every field. It has been proven over and over that when balance is made this way, one build will always topple the other over.
    Rather then comparing the classes with each other, you have to take a look at each class independently and see on what fields he has his cons and how they should be made that way.

    A class has his strengths and weaknesses. A class without weaknesses is an unbeatable class. What one has in physical power might lack in defences. Therefor, comparing classes would be comparing the taste of an orange with an apple only because both are fruit.
    I hope this makes it clear to everyone.
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 9
    3/16/2014 18:15:01   
    Xendran
    Member

    		What Therril is saying is right. You want classes to be designed with a theme in mind, and give them all more leverage and advantages in one area and less in another. This is why when i design skills, i think about what class it is on. It makes every class feel different, and play differently with different strategies. If every single person had hard counters to every single skill, you end up with builds like the original 5 Focus bounty hunter build (back when focus was +5 damage). If every build was so all around, every single battle would be the same: Whoever goes first does something, you hard counter it. they either do something that you then have to hard counter again, they hard counter your hard counter, or they copy your hard counter without having the initial effect on them unless the initial hit was only damage.

    Instead of thinking of interesting ways to use what you have available, it becomes a simple check: Determine what skill was used, perform hard counter, repeat till at advantage.

    Am i making a bounty hunter skill? I usually make it related to offensiveness or restoring health in some way.
    Is it a mercenary skill? Being able to be ultra tanky at the cost of offense to be able to wait out the lengthier cooldowns on the burst damage skills that mercenary is so famous for.
    Blood mage skill? Basically an even more aggressive version of bounty hunter with a magical twist to it.

    < Message edited by Xendran -- 3/16/2014 18:17:50 >
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 10
    3/16/2014 19:29:21   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		The "theme" was passives.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 11
    3/17/2014 4:21:52   
    kosmo
    Member
     

    		 i belive that the problem of ch is static charge, the fact it deals unblokable dmg makes it too cheep for no dex builds, and sice the energy gain is affected by defences the skill is usless whitout strenght.

    i would reverse it to how it worked in delta, where it gained alwaise the same ammount (blokable) and dealed normal strike (blokable-rageble-rage gaining)

    < Message edited by kosmo -- 3/17/2014 4:29:10 >
    Epic  Post #: 12
    3/17/2014 16:17:08   
    santonik
    Member

    		1. Multi-Shot (only cyber hunter)

    For this have to do our own version of cyber hunter.

    decreased energy cost and Raise damage. Why. Because this is the only skill which supports a purely dexterity. This should be attractive to attack in many ways.


    2. Shadow Arts
    decreased enercy cost. about 50 all lvl,s.


    3. Static Charge
    This support basically only str builds now. This must be changes. Static charge can be intepented to stats ??? This means static charge is equal all builds. No matter it is Super heavy tanks or pure str build. every build gain same amount benefit.
    this can be give Sligthly improver to support maybe. Why ? Because support players is less defence and less abiltys to attacks to opponent.

    4. Plasma Grenade

    --- Make this dexterity based.

    or

    --- Increased damage and decreased energy cost.


    5. to separate some skills.
    Separation. This would allow for a balance between editing a little bit easier. Since then this does not unintentionally affect another class.





    Epic  Post #: 13
    3/17/2014 16:33:40   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 All Multi skills are meant to be equal, on average - so you can make them work in a different way but on average, the damage has to be the same. So your MultiShot suggestion is going out the window, unless Plasma Rain and Artillery Strike get the same.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 14
    3/17/2014 16:44:40   
    santonik
    Member

    		Trans. Yes you have point this time ^^
    Epic  Post #: 15
    3/17/2014 17:02:32   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 At the same time, if you buffed Mercs' and Mages' Multi, they'd end up overpowered - Support Mercs and Dex TMs. So yeah, it's not feasible right now. Instead, you could make them deal 90% damage if 2 opponents are alive (from 85%), which shouldn't be too much but noticable.

    Crits have been nerfed so Mercs' Multi isn't as dangerous, so it's only current Dex TMs which would have a ball with it, in 2v2. Nothing else.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 16
    3/17/2014 17:13:05   
    Therril Oreb
    Legendary AdventureGuide!


    		 And what if not every multi ahd to be of equal power? Perhaps Cyber Hunter is better at attacking single targets but with more power.
    No need to generalise all skills into 1.
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 17
    3/17/2014 17:21:31   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Actually, that's the info from the Devs - Multi skills must always be equal. At some point in time, they weren't and Plasma Rain had Staff requirement, whilst other Multi skills did not. When the change came, all Multi skills were made equal and weapon requirements were removed where necessary.

    Unless stated otherwise, by Devs themselves, this is a "rule". Just like on the old system, each class could have 2 out of 3 of these: passive Armor, passive HP or EP regen, a debuff.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 18
    3/17/2014 19:49:19   
    Dual Thrusters
    Member

    		What if Multi-Shot was renamed and changed to scale with tech? You could then be able to abuse tech along with a buffed Plasma Grenade. It could also come in handy if one were to use a 5 Focus build.

    It's not like Cyber has any other dex skills anyway.

    < Message edited by Dual Thrusters -- 3/17/2014 19:53:23 >
    MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
    3/17/2014 19:53:49   
    NDB
    Member

    		Actually, the multis are not equal in power because they scale differently. Artillery Strike's base damage is 20 damage higher than Plasma Rain and 10 damage higher than Multi-Shot and has a 210 damage increase from skill levels 1-10, making it the most powerful of the three. Next, Multi-Shot's base damage is 10 damage higher than Plasma Rain, making it more powerful than Plasma Rain until level 9, because it only has a 190 damage increase from levels 1-10 compared to Plasma rain which has 210 damage increase.
    Epic  Post #: 20
    3/17/2014 20:09:06   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		How I would fix Static Charge:
    Make it scale on invested energy, support and possibly levels. Strike is 50% and it and its effect could be blocked. So this version of static charge is totally independent of the enemy's defenses and is blockable. I think that would fix most problems that all of y'all have brought up with static charge.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 21
    3/17/2014 22:37:49   
    Xendran
    Member

    quote:

    And what if not every multi ahd to be of equal power? Perhaps Cyber Hunter is better at attacking single targets but with more power.
    No need to generalise all skills into 1.


    There are some certain baselines that all classes need to have available to them, and the developers have made this clear:
    These are a way to restore health (or something that provides a similar function), a way to hit multiple targets and an ultimate.

    There is also a pretty basic balance issue with what you said: Why would i ever pick any class other than cyber hunter if every class is inferior to it in 1v1? You dont need to worry about multi-target in 2v2 so the enhanced ability to take out single targets would break 1v1 in CHs favor (and CH is already good in 1v1, it's 2v2 where that class has problems).

    You would have to start doing things like scaling damage to a single target based on the fact that there are two if you wanted to make them single target burst damagers when in a party which both makes no sense and then makes CH obviously the best in both 2v2 and juggernaut as well, since single burst damage and NOT multi damage is the biggest influencing factor in both of those modes due to field medic and hatchling rush.

    This is an example of why balance is not easy, a simple idea like "make CH better at attacking single targets" can obsolete every other class in the game without realizing it.


    quote:

    No need to generalise all skills into 1.


    This is exactly the reason this balance section is so all over the place with its suggestions.
    Sorry but you have it backwards here.
    You want to generalize every skill of the same type into one category because you then create a baseline skill that all other skills are then modified off of the base to ensure that they remain balanced with each other.

    What happens when we have no baseline for any skills? We get completely random numbers being thrown out that may or may not completely break the game and require excessive amounts of trial and error testing with a team that is not large enough to handle it, and then also has nothing to go on to compare the skill to other than attempting to compare entire classes without enough time to test a real number of different builds.

    Remember: You cannot balance turn based the same way as real time or MMO, and the maximum team size in this game is 2. When thematically designing skills you need to do them in an appropriate way for the game that they're in in, which in the case of ED is mostly achieved by proc and aux effects that thematically modify a type of skill. Full on class roles like Single Target, AoE, Support do not work as they turn the game into class rock paper scissors.


    Interesting thought of the day: Class Rock Paper Scissors is bad, Build Rock Paper Scissors is not (unless every single battle becomes RPS).

    < Message edited by Xendran -- 3/17/2014 23:05:21 >
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 22
    3/17/2014 23:33:13   
    kosmo
    Member
     

    		 after passive change, i am aswell for comparing classes, but i doubt this is the reason of this balance section.

    about multis, i belive that they are all underpowered in 2v2, the energy cost doesn t respect the skill s power, 85% dmg will mostly hit half than what full dmg does.
    Epic  Post #: 23
    3/17/2014 23:46:41   
    Xendran
    Member

    		Every skill in the game that deals anything other than 100% damage is imbalanced because of the ED devs implementing multipliers in the wrong place (before flat numerical damage reduction... what made them think that was a good idea? )
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 24
    3/18/2014 0:24:25   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		Before? That sounds like a bug because it literally doesn't match the description.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 25
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