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RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread

 
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1/23/2015 20:16:19   
The berserker killer
Member

 

lol

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 1/23/2015 20:27:07 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 226
1/23/2015 20:23:56   
The Jop
Member

This is no longer relevant, but I can't delete posts...hooray!

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/23/2015 20:42:53 >


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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 227
1/23/2015 20:26:28   
The berserker killer
Member

 

youre right, let me edit that
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 228
1/23/2015 20:38:45   
Variation
Member
 

@The Jop: That is a good point about the "Parasite is taking too much energy" argument and also a slight explanation on why it's crappy late-game -- because it works off of your opponent's current energy which definitely isn't generally a static figure. While it's possible for it to take that much at once, if a build is using the energy required for Energy Parasite to steal that much or even more, Energy Parasite isn't the build's only problem -- which has been addressed before over players wanting to believe high energy builds aren't working because of Energy Parasite.

One thing though, is the duration (3 turns) isn't a problem either. There has to be something to compensate for the fact that it's working off your opponent's current energy. If the duration was lowered even by 1-turn and only that it would be a significant nerf to Energy Parasite, something it doesn't need. They could lower the duration of Energy Parasite, but the % of energy the skill steals would have to be adjusted accordingly. Which players would complain about after the duration was lowered. It doesn't matter what the developers do, players will find a way to say an arbitrary problem that the developers attempted to fix was done incorrectly. Perfect balance can't be achieved, however viable strategies against these "flavor" builds as the community calls them do exist.
Post #: 229
1/23/2015 20:42:27   
The Jop
Member

Right, it's not a problem, I meant to say that it's the strength of energy parasite, rather than it taking a lot of energy.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 230
1/23/2015 20:44:06   
The berserker killer
Member

 

I think its the fact that it's whats really stopping this game from growing. As more cores come out, so does the need for energy. And whats stopping people from investing more points into energy is this skill Parasite. Its kinda stopping the game from growing/evolving at the moment.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 231
1/23/2015 21:00:09   
Variation
Member
 

@The berserker killer: Even if Energy Parasite didn't exist it would still be crazy to use high energy. Especially with skills like EMP Grenade/Static Smash that can take an extremely large portion of your opponent's energy away in one turn. Also the other energy draining skills/cores make it not so worthwhile to invest into energy also. If that is your argument on Energy Parasite you should also accept that there are other mechanisms preventing players from investing into energy which means those should be examined also.

Also one thing to keep in mind, they could easily lower the % of energy it drains from your opponent and increase the % it restores to balance it out. However, that does come with some flaws(that can be fixed), it would for instance, make it even weaker when your opponent is relatively low on energy. They could have it steal a somewhat reasonable static amount in those cases -- which would improve, but somewhat maintain Energy Parasite's greatest flaw.

EDIT: Not really saying I support nerfing how much it drains, but was just showing an example of a suggestion that wouldn't have an extremely damaging impact on the skill -- but also supports your argument of it stealing too much.

< Message edited by Variation -- 1/23/2015 21:02:54 >
Post #: 232
1/23/2015 21:05:57   
The Jop
Member

The problem with that is that other players will usually still have enough energy to heal after 1 turn or 2 of parasite (making the BM get very little energy back), and that decides the match. That's happened to me now several times, imagine reducing the amount it drains.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 233
1/23/2015 21:18:27   
Variation
Member
 

^Yes, I know it's happening even with the way Energy Parasite currently works. If you look though I did address that concern from a late-game situation
quote:

They could have it steal a somewhat reasonable static amount in those cases -- which would improve, but somewhat maintain Energy Parasite's greatest flaw

believe me, I'm well aware of what you're going through as a Blood Mage I know the class very well. The constant amount it would steal with the suggestion could help with the situation you brought up (in most late-game situations), possibly with the combination of a core such as shards, but that is strategy and should be considered acceptable.

I can't really make any suggestions to the early-game mechanisms of Energy Parasite to prevent that problem -- it's simply a counter to the skill and it's a good thing you brought that up because it's a decent counter to Energy Parasite in EpicDuel's current state (which some people believe just can't be countered). The skill is much more useless in most late-game situations though, to a point where I believe it needs to be buffed in that area.
Post #: 234
1/29/2015 13:29:15   
Squrwogrona
Member

I was playing bm on and off almost from the beginning of omega and parasite was OP only when it was unblockable 100% dmg. Let me say it again parasite is not op at all, considering for example tm combo assimilate+battery or tac's battery+frenzy+optional atom smash.

Parasite is bad in later turns (lets say 150 energy and less). Good player with tm has no problems keeping bm's energy flow controlled in later turns, same goes for bh, cyber, anyone with piston punch in general. Merc should not have problem with parasite either, just static after the second drain, even if blocked it is often enough.

Tac merc, well if u have atom, its the same as merc, if u don't u have no problems with it anyway now after frenzy change. If anything, parasite should get a little rework about its % or duration, though I am not sure what exactly to change.

As bm I used parasite even when I would gain only 10 points, bcs I sacrificed little and most opponents did stupid moves instead of keeping cool head. Honestly, I dunno why this is an issue, bcs tm and tlm (and ch in some cases) have much better energy control and I see no calls for a nerf (there is no need for that, just in case someone will take my words out of context again).
Epic  Post #: 235
1/29/2015 13:41:58   
Variation
Member
 

^Yep, exactly. The skill is very easy to maneuver around. However, some players just either lack the intelligence to counter it or simply refuse to invest time into counters. If anything they should make the skill better in late-game situations which could be compensated for by a tweak in how much it drains (if the tweak would even need to be made).
Post #: 236
1/29/2015 17:38:55   
santonik
Member


I do not know about the others. I myself have great difficulty to play bloodmage a receive. I play high SUPPORT build. I mean that the Support player has a few turns to solve the match. In fact, I bet maximum style attacks. Not even the critical 2-3 do not affect the game even though I will do it. bloodmage is still able to heal me out.

parasite + heal + medic Mark of Blood

Support players will not have a terribly good defense capability. This weakness bloodmage able to use. Parasite is completely overwhelming skill. Provides GREAT damage and takes energy. Not to mention the marks of blood skill. This gives just took an immense amount amount of HP back. STR / 4-5 FOCUS Builds is a really good defense instruments. Bloodmage may be all in all a lot of benefits. Not only energy, but also HP. Bloodmagella what is the ability to not have any other character class.
The ability to have access to a continuous ENERGY AND HP. HP is able to access a little control. Access to energy is not able to prevent. 1 way is. Spend your energy quickly. This works only for minimum energy pool. The other will not work. Since bloodmage benefits ALWAYS. Energy, HP Or both. Usually both.

In fact, I made a proposal to that energy control. here it is. http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21915391
It should be fair to all.

I do not like the idea of what one build can win all the others. Today sees this.

The only way to win is bloodmage bloodmage SELF makes a mistake. Or oneself is luck.
Always luck does not help. Out healing succeeds all too easily. My burst of damages are not enough. I'm focused on the different stats.

160 HIGH SUPPORT, STR 50, 1300 HP. low 650 ENERGY.
MAXIMUM ATTACK BUILD. Well defenses.

160 SUPPORT STR gives a nice buff. (76 extra str)
Blood commander gives good access to HP. Although this gives a better return than the HP bloodmage mark of blood. So your defense is paper. Bloodmage can have 450 both defenses, and in addition to incredibly good HP intake. This will help to heal too often out Opponents.

I would see the benefit weakens all character classes HP / energy intake / destruction. And to add to the SUPPORT element. more support is better skill.


I have seen many of the same game again and repeated the phenomenon.
No one wants to give up the best or overpower attacks. This is a violation of the game comfort zone. The same if someone coming to hit his fist. and say that it is fun.
The game needs change and to solve them by Reason and mathematics. No claims. As this that I like bloodmage and bloodmage be overwhelming. No needs nerfs.

Myself feels that the game should be more counter options. Now the game has all the best counter potential rare Builds. (STR and FOCUS) All other suffer from large weaknesses. It is not difficult to conclude why the STR / FOCUS Builds are so common.

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------

Variation.

I assume that you have lost most of the STR / Focus Builds. Otherwise, you've been probably invincible.

Yes, I found the 160 support the build (merc)
What might win bloodmages. However, this solves the match. WHAT MAKES bloodmage. If bloodmage makes one mistake so I can win. Otherwise, I lose ALWAYS match. Bloodmage is able to heal me out easily. Bloodmage is able to to steal the energy easily. 1 steal energy is sufficient to prevent the use of one skill. Although the start of the match I'm still an underdog. (In many ways)


I also assume that you are 60+ rank of the player. these days is easy nowadays. Ranks fully supports STR / FOCUS players.
STR / FOCUS players get the most benefits in practice.
Epic  Post #: 237
1/29/2015 19:39:32   
The berserker killer
Member

 

I actually have tested high energy builds and they're win ratio is very high. The only ones I've struggles with were bloodmages and Lobo Demolidor. Yes, that one player in particular
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 238
1/30/2015 4:22:08   
King Bling
Member

Nope Bms are perfectly fine, its the trendy tlms now who get health and energy back on just hitting on rage
Post #: 239
1/30/2015 4:41:32   
Squrwogrona
Member

@Santonik To be honest, playing support build (I assume supp merc or tlm) against any class in 1v1 will result in a loss unless you crit a lot/opponent plays badly. Support build is way more useful for 2v2, especially if you are partnered with another support. That is 99% win right there. It is low def and res of supp build which makes any lifesteal very powerful; not the other way around. And to the point of parasite: emp, static, assimilate, piston would do much more havoc than a parasite.

< Message edited by Squrwogrona -- 1/30/2015 4:42:24 >
Epic  Post #: 240
2/18/2015 14:42:22   
SaifD1978
Member

I was expecting alot from BM, ever since I've changed to this class I just jumped right into energy parasite. I know this skill is very (OP) for boss battles, that's for sure. However this skill doesn't balance in 1vs1 : 2vs2 : 2vs1 (Jug) unless the opponent(s) has decent amount of energy to take from. Since BM has a combination of (Tech Mage) and (Mercenary) I myself thought that this was the class to take because it was a combination of those two classes. It turns out that there's just that energy parasite, which has lead me down. Even if you regain mana, the opponent will or might not take it. Chances are that Blood Mages will get their mana robbed.

I have suggestions on how others can use (Blood Mage):

1. Since BM's can't take that much energy from the opponent, or if they can. I recommend you have an active core: Generator
+Generator can balance your build, you just got to make sure you put your armors resistance to the max or (Def & Res)

2. Another active core if you have: Piston Punch
+Piston Punch can also regen your mana with just a punch, make sure you put your armors resistance to max or (Def & Res) mostly resistance though.

3. Have cores that take your opponents mana such as: Conversion Shot & Frost Shards
+CS & FS will come to use when your opponent has enough mana to use a skill, then simply use one of both of these skills.


If you're level 30 or above, you're going to need it. If you're level 40, you may or don't need it. Either way I still recommend you get these before you get high amount of loss. Unless you know what you're doing, that's fine. But still get these to balance out the Blood Mage class.

Get advice from other BM's if this one didn't help as much.

< Message edited by SaifD1978 -- 2/18/2015 14:45:38 >
Epic  Post #: 241
2/22/2015 12:47:44   
Midnightsoul
Member

Energy Parasite should just steal a fixed amount per turn
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 242
2/22/2015 12:57:00   
The Jop
Member

That would pretty much take all of the uniqueness out of it.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 243
7/27/2015 15:58:07   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Energy parasite is garbage... I never lose to a BM that uses parasite, it's so bad. However, no one seems to care about it. The plasma cannon and bunker nerf were not needed... I'd pur def/res ignore to 15% if not back to 20%... 2 Turn 20% Parasite with 4 turn cooldown is trash, considering the fact that once a BM and TM/TLM have 0 energy, a TLM and TM loopheal it because parasite doesn't drain for many turns... Atleast put the drain back to 3 turns and energy regen to 15%... There is almost 0 BM's because parasite is the easiest energy drain to counter. Funny how this thread has been inactive for a half year though, and the "tool" that lets the devs see the class winning % w/ build is slacking for balance because BM would have been buffed already. CH AND BM are the lowest claases right now, and it's pathetic that the game is apparently "balanced." STR TM is apparently "OP", wouldn't be if Merc and BM had a buff(intim would help). Kartherax isn't going to stop STR TM because then everyone that's focus will IA the crap out of the Kartherax users. I hope Friday there is a big balance change, because frankly, I can't see any true testers taking time to truly test the balance features without shoving them into ED and changing them in a month.

Edit: Honestly tho...needs a change...parasite

Posts merged. ~WhiteTiger

< Message edited by WhiteTiger -- 7/27/2015 20:25:34 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 244
7/27/2015 18:42:58   
Stonehawk
Member

quote:

Technician improving with support, Overload back to dex, plasma rain with technology, Super Charge with dexterity? Stun is already strongly nerfed, and super charge is not as spammable as the combination of plasma rain + overload, so I think it wouldn't bring an OP dexterity build, specially if technician with support is implemented. ALSO tech will have a skill that can be used with a sword.

Technician is the only defensive skill that improves with a defensive stat, that's probably the biggest problem (I've already said that ages ago) and the devs are changing everything else trying to fix this class. I'm pretty sure Dex Builds would have problems if technician worked like all buffing skills (improving with support) and overload wouldn't even need to be changed.


This is my suggestion for Tech Mages.
(EDIT: It was someone else's suggestion, but I always thought of those changes)

Now I'm posting here to show the impact to Blood mage:

Overload and super charge -> Dex
Plasma Cannon and Plasma Rain -> Tech

Seems perfect to me.


quote:

Honestly tho...needs a change...parasite


Yeah, lowering turns of this effect should lower its cooldown too, making it easier to control energy, since it's the worst energy control at the moment. I suggest -1 cooldown, or in case of keeping cooldown, adding a minimum of 30 or 50 or 100 energy to the caster instead of 10.



< Message edited by Stonehawk -- 7/27/2015 18:59:04 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 245
7/27/2015 21:25:05   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Yea, definetely something...New parasite with 20% needs less cooldown...
Old parasite(before 20%)...3 turn, 4 turn cooldown. Use once every 5 turns(1 turn vulnerable)
New Parasite 2 turn, 4 turn cooldown, use once every 5 turns(2 turns vulnerable)
Newest parasite 2 turn, 3 cooldown, use once every 4 turns.

With newest parasite, you would sacrifice more turns parasiting which results to...more energy drain BUT less damage. 5Focus would sacrifice a Cannon, IA, or Aux use, and if on defense, sacrificing 1 of those for Heal or Intimidation. And don't forget the MOB. Str would also maybe miss a 100% dmg strike for an 85% parasite...it adds up.
I'd prefer the Old parasite, but the newest would probably put BM back on the market with a decent %... Definetely more than 10, it doesn't do anything... 50 though... if you're opponent is under a certain energy gap, it's always 50... and plus...feeds TM with assimilation. But since it's 3 cooldown, you got 1 turn. :P


P.S. I think I said P rain tech, super dex in the TM balance thread

< Message edited by .Lord Ginger. -- 7/27/2015 21:29:56 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 246
7/28/2015 17:01:40   
Stonehawk
Member

@Lord Ginger

Yeah, as you see I edited someone suggested it, I was lazy to check who it was. But I added technician with support! (OFF TOPIC)

ON TOPIC: Parasite has a low drain over 2 turns, so it logically should be stronger, because the second turn of it's effect the other player can strategically get rid of his/her own energy to make BM not recover enough energy. So, the increase on minimum energy recovered should be increased, if the turns of the effect and cooldown stays as it is.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 247
8/3/2015 22:55:57   
thebestmerc000
Member
 

Bm is trash as of right now. I know that sounds harsh and inappropriate but Realize that I have come to this conclusion after playing both 1v1 and 2v2 and losing miserably (30-40% win rate, and that's being generous). I have been using bm ever since it came out and it's true that it has had its ups and downs (like every class), but as of right now it is completely unusable.

To make my point I'm going to go through the whole class. First let me divide up the skills in to defensive and offensive. The defensive skills (field medic, energy shield and reflex boost) are self-explanatory so I won't discuss them. The offensive skills, however, I will talk about in depth but also try to stay as simple possible for clarity.

Fireball, plasma cannon, mark of blood, overload, intimidation, plasma rain, super charge, bludgeon and of course parasite.

Fireball: The skill improves with strength. If you have been keeping up with the updates you know how much str is getting nerfed. With that said, the only way you can get decent damage out of it is by using a str build ( therefore it is a useless skill for 5 focus bms) and maxing it out ( which eats up a lot of skill points and also makes it vulnerable to pyro). The recent update also gave it a "buff". For 1 turn you lower your enemy's defenses for 5%. The problem is that, first of all, it lasts only for 1 turn ( therefore it can be countered with cores such as ice shield and what not) and second of all, 5 % is a joke. These days people have defenses ranging from 300-400. Therefore you can lower there defenses by 15-20, which is laughable. I even tried this skill in 1v1, lost every single battle. In 2v2 I got lucky with a few crits and other "luck" but for the most part it was embarrassing to use.

Plasma cannon: This is the skill that has been the pride and joy of blood mages. Almost every single build made since omega has had plasma cannon in it. It really is a good skill, or at least was. The recent 10% ignore defense just nerfed it to the point where I cry whenever I click on the skill. On the average 5 focus player I will do about 300-350 damage and with critical 380-420. On players with less defenses it does anywhere between 350-450 with critical going up to 500. With players with less defense there is not much of a problem but with tank players, 300-350 wont get you far. I suggest a buff of 20-40 damage on all levels.

Mark of blood: Not much to discuss here. It's pretty balanced.

Overload: I could write a 10 page essay explaining why this skill needs to be fixed. But I'll be brief. I know it now "improves with support" because dex mages needed to be nerfed. However, only dex tech mages were the problem, not dex blood mages (blood mages have the energy inefficiency problem, I'll elaborate more when talking about parasite). With that said, now this skill might as well be banned. There is no support-overload blood mage build. Trust me, I have tried. You need above 130 support for it to have decent damage. But with 130 points invested in support, the build is very unbalanced and cannot be used. Tech mages can at least work with support because they malfunction and that works because overload is energy damage, but for blood mage this is just a useless skill in the skill tree.

Intimidation: Not much to discuss here. It's usable.

Plasma rain: Lets be honest guys. For this skill to do any damage you need to have a dex build ( hence this skill is useless for 5 focus). It is possible to do a dex build. Reflex boost is a good friend. However, you only have plasma rain and gun to do damage. AND if you do have a dex build, the chances of your gun be deflected is quite high. With that said, plasma rain is the only skill that can do damage. But, with onlyone skill to rely on for damage, the build is very predictable and can be countered quite easily.

Bludgeon: I feel like this skill is hanging on cliff. It can be used by a 5 focus bm build, but the chances of it getting blocked are high and dmg output is fairly low. With a str build, it is the only skill that can do dmg. However, the recent update made it more costly and now it's difficult to do a blood mark+bludgeon combo.

Super charge: 1. Requires a huge amount of energy which is difficult for a bm to gather with your enemy stealing your energy and parasite as means of making up for that. Staff requirement also adds more pressure not to use it. As I have discussed before, staff skills are very weak and therefore having a staff just for super charge seems less benefical. Switching to a sword would provide more primary dmg and stat points.

Parasite: Previous players have already discussed the issue with this skill so I will simply summarize. First it does 85% dmg ( it doesn't say it but it does), steals little energy and does not provide enough for the user, a 2 turn gap allows your opponent to play with energy all they want. Personally, I am in favor or increasing the # of turns it steals and returns energy and lowering the %. However, if you do not think this is right then simply make this skill like all the other stealing and gaining energy skills. Steals and returns it in 1 turn (like static grenade).

Overall, bm has 9 offensive skills. Only 2 of them I have said are balanced/usable.

Please reply to this post. I am eager to hear your thoughts and suggestions. I got lazy towards the end of this post so forgive me if I spelled something wrong, made a mistake or whatever.


Post #: 248
8/4/2015 4:18:10   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


While each skill is pretty bad on the class as you pointed out do note that you can't simply look at each individual skill to judge a class entirely. Synergies and whatnot apply. Still, the class is pretty bad and its only gem, parasite, serves entirely to counter builds that would otherwise be semi-viable. Aside from that niche role it fills it's subpar compared to most other drains right now.

The problem with bludgeon right now is that there is literally no reason to use it aside from on a focus build and a strength build. The problem is strength builds are fairly weak in general, especially with BM's support requirement for energy parasite. The second problem is on focus builds you almost always have something more important to use other than bludgeon despite it having very good stats on paper.
Epic  Post #: 249
8/4/2015 7:20:34   
Darkwing
Member

I still have good win rate in 1vs1 with 5 focus BM at max level, my only problem is with any other build.

My problem with this class is that once I change build, my win rate in either battle mode drops so low it's not even funny. From the 85-90% win rate in 1vs1 with 5 focus I drop to 20% win rate with a strenght build, support build, dex build, tech build, stregth and support build, you name it.


The clear problem is the support requirement for parasite. What builds have at least 42 support?

< Message edited by Darkwing -- 8/4/2015 7:22:08 >
Post #: 250
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