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RE: =DF= Base Classes Discussion Thread

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10/16/2017 4:38:42   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

Also why is trip still a skill? I get it doesn't need to be super good since it's a base class but why wouldn't you want an enemy to run? You get the loot anyways.

Not that most people would care, but you actually do get slightly less EXP and Gold when they run away.
I wouldn't be surprised if we'd one day got a fight that used fleeing as a gimmick where instead of ending the fight, it's something you want to avoid.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 51
10/16/2017 10:26:59   
Solargeo
Member

@baron I would not care, saves mana and time sorta, now if it gave a lotta exp n gold
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 52
10/16/2017 12:42:37   
elixxon
Member

It is really just an useless ability by now. Back in the day an escape mechanic was experimented on(Chicken Out of the ChickenCowLord anyone ;P), but nothing really worth the ability....




By the way.
I'm feeling like experimenting. Which base class would be the best for a beastmaster build in your opinion? Mage with it's AoE or Rogue with it's defense?
DF  Post #: 53
10/16/2017 13:31:21   
Lv 1000
Member
quote:

The Rogue's and Cryptic's crit skills need a buff... when they nerfed the crit stat to 50% effectiveness they left Stealth unchanged, which hits the Rogue hard because it's dependant on crits.


First off, Cryptic is the best of the Atlean classes right now, able to dish out the most consistent DPS with EXTREMELY high accuracy and with every hit. If you factor in Cryptic's passive and stealth you can EASILY reach 80% chance to crit (and this is WITHOUT crit gear) while still being one of the most efficient defensive classes in the game. Summary, in its current state Cryptic DOES NOT need any buffs. If you're having trouble playing as Cryptic I am more than happy to assist in any way, i.e. hmu in DMs (because if you think it needs a buff you're just doing something wrong).

Second, As for rogue, I think that ALL of the base base (as in starter base classes) need some love just in general.

< Message edited by Lv 1000 -- 10/16/2017 13:36:40 >
Post #: 54
10/16/2017 14:23:22   
elixxon
Member

Rogue Stealth: 20% Chance to Crit sign appears when casting. Adds 10% actually because crit% is the crit stat divided by 2.
Cryptic Stealth: 30% Chance to Crit sign appears when casting. Adds 15%.

They are bugged.
DF  Post #: 55
10/16/2017 14:38:04   
admahu
Member
 

 They display "+20% to critical hit." They don't say you have a 20% higher chance, though "%" is misleading now. Mousing over the skills correctly says "+20 crit" however. I don't know if base Rogue received the same treatment, but Cryptic's critical hits were buffed to do 2x damage. This may be considered appropriately balanced alongside the lowered crit chance.

edit: Just tested it, Rogue crits DO do 2x damage, so that might be the balance decision Rogue does 1.75x

< Message edited by admahu -- 10/22/2017 10:38:30 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 56
10/16/2017 21:20:03   
Zeldax
Member
 

 In case you guys forgot, Cryptic also has a passive that affects your critical chance, and not your crit stat. That means it's not affected by the /2 thing, and it gives you a static 25% boost to your crit chance. On top of that, like mentioned earlier, Cryptic does x2 critical damage instead of x1.75.

Also, if the Stealth skill were to get buffed to give 60 crit so that it'll still give 30% crit (due to the /2 thing), that'd be too overpowered, especially considering the passive. Cryptic on its own is already amazing. It can easily break through monsters with high BPD and can constantly dish out high damage. Like LV 1000 said, it's the best Atelean class for general use.

< Message edited by Zeldax -- 10/16/2017 21:21:36 >
Post #: 57
10/16/2017 21:54:04   
admahu
Member
 

 I don't see any reason to assume Cryptic's passive works differently than any other source of crit. The crit stat IS critical percent chance. It is most likely half as effective now.

Also, if Stealth being doubled would be overpowered now, that means it was overpowered before. That has never been stated or hinted at.

While off topic, I doubt Cryptic has ever been the strongest Atelean class. If anything deserved that title, I would give it to Ascendant.

edit: Waaaaay back even, people considered Cryptic's crit skills/passive underpowered because they were unnecessary with the crazy crit creep.

< Message edited by admahu -- 10/16/2017 22:03:50 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 58
10/16/2017 22:05:35   
Zeldax
Member
 

 I'm a bit wrong on the bit about Cryptic's passive not being affected by the /2 thing. I asked Verly about it and he said it is affected by the /2 thing, but was buffed appropriately to give the same chance. So it essentially gives 50 crit but is halved to still give 25% crit. If you want some evidence to support my statement then you can PM me.

People have discussed about this before and have said that Cryptic is one of the best classes in the game due to it being able to deal the most consistent damage out of the three Atelean classes.

I never said it was the strongest Atelean class. I said it was the best for general use. Ascendant is the best for long fights, while Riftwalker is the best for short fights.

About your edit, obviously it was stated to be underpowered, that was before the engine 14 update. I'm talking about after the engine 14 update.

< Message edited by Zeldax -- 10/16/2017 22:07:01 >
Post #: 59
10/16/2017 22:19:47   
admahu
Member
 

 Cryptic's passive already being doubled leaves me conflicted. Now I don't know if the staff believe Stealth is balanced as is. Or if it was already doubled without mention like the passive. Or if needs to be doubled like the passive but hasn't happened yet.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 60
10/17/2017 2:04:37   
elixxon
Member

Could we just fix the Rogue's Stealth at least then? I know from experience that the Cryptic is ridiculously strong but the Rogue was hit hard by the whole Crit nerf. I understand that in endgame it gets just crazy with the amounts of stats you can pile up but on lower levels you can feel the difference.
DF  Post #: 61
10/17/2017 2:31:46   
Steel_King
Member

I'm a rogue. Born, bred, and will die: a rogue. Not a Cryptic. Like to be, but not. And as a lower level rogue, let me say this. Crit no longer even features in my gameplay as I can't get it with enough regularity to make it effective. Understand (and AGREE!) with the tinkering, but just wanted to put that out there. Rogue for me is still playable (and will always be), but it does make it more difficult in general.

I hope none of the team takes it as unwarranted criticism, just trying to put my two cents in.
Post #: 62
10/17/2017 11:20:40   
admahu
Member
 

 I think you guys are exaggerating the crit nerf a bit. Stealth getting effectively cut in half only lost 10% chance to crit. 10% is hardly a game changing "hard hit" that would "remove crit from gameplay" as a Rogue.

edit: And that 10% loss to crit was greeted with +25% damage on crits compared to other classes.

Further, the purpose of doubling max crit wasn't a nerf, it was a buff to fix rounding down odd numbers. All those +1 crit accessories Rogue's have at low levels were rounding down to 0. Now, those actually do something. So let's assume you had +1 in all equips, that is a free +5 crit across the board now. So, your stealth crit percent was lowered by 10%, but you get +2-3% for every attack from equips now. (plus that previously mentioned +25% damage, a freebie in your Final skill)

< Message edited by admahu -- 10/17/2017 11:57:09 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 63
10/17/2017 12:21:44   
elixxon
Member

quote:

Further, the purpose of doubling max crit wasn't a nerf, it was a buff to fix rounding down odd numbers. All those +1 crit accessories Rogue's have at low levels were rounding down to 0. Now, those actually do something. So let's assume you had +1 in all equips, that is a free +5 crit across the board now. So, your stealth crit percent was lowered by 10%, but you get +2-3% for every attack from equips now. (plus that previously mentioned +25% damage, a freebie in your Final skill)

Crit% now is Crit(stat)/2. You mixed up the old with the new system.

On lower levels you lose a lot of actual crit chance because of that, which hits the Rogue's damage output at lower levels because the class was designed around crits.

10% Crit means a LOT for a character that is reliant on it.
DF  Post #: 64
10/17/2017 12:55:54   
admahu
Member
 

 Crit% now is Crit(stat)/2, yes. But before it was Crit% = Crit from equipment/2 (rounded down, individually). So any odd number was wasted points. A ring with Crit+1 was actually Crit+0, a weapon with Crit+7 was really Crit+6, etc. This new change fixed that, making loads of equipment now give extra crit.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 65
10/17/2017 13:12:39   
elixxon
Member

As I know it was Crit%=Crit.
The way you describe it makes no sense. Except if it rounded down the total number if it is an odd one meaning you only lose 1% crit.
Like how the defensive stats used to be literal percentages(hence the old defense abilities only give 70-80 points).

DF  Post #: 66
10/17/2017 13:22:42   
admahu
Member
 

 Yeah, the old system didn't make sense and was bad, but that's the way it was.

From the September 1st Design Notes... note this applied to all equipment, he just used weapons as an example

quote:

Previously, halved weapon crit meant that weapons with odd numbered crit points would essentialyl just be rounded down to the nearest even number (e.g. 1 would become 0, 3 would give 1 effective crit). It wasn't very intuitive at all.
By unhalving crit and rolling crit chance out of 200, odd numbers of crit are entirely effective. A crit rate of 107 is a crit rate of 107/200.
Increases crit rate overall by a couple percent depending on items used.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 67
10/18/2017 12:02:53   
elixxon
Member

Which would be the best base class for a Beastmaster build?(basically maxing CHA have some WIS then the rest goes to LUK)

I am thinking about Mage for the 0CD multi or Rogue for the defense.


< Message edited by elixxon -- 10/18/2017 12:03:45 >
DF  Post #: 68
10/18/2017 18:43:15   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


 Rogue/Cryptic's crit chance skills were all adjusted wit hthe new system. They were not nerfed at all.
AQ MQ  Post #: 69
10/18/2017 18:47:59   
DragonLordRyan
Member
 

 Due to the mpm changes, is it fair to say cryptic has been indirectly buffed then?
AQ DF  Post #: 70
10/18/2017 20:13:07   
admahu
Member
 

 But when I use Stealth with my Cryptic, my Crit goes from 80 to 110. So it is still only 30, which is half as effective as before. Steath as Rogue and DragonRogue (with no equips) goes from 14 to 34, so still only 20.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 71
10/19/2017 12:21:23   
elixxon
Member

@Verlyrus
quote:

Rogue/Cryptic's crit chance skills were all adjusted wit hthe new system. They were not nerfed at all.


Then the information in game is misleading.
Rogue Stealth gives 20 points to the crit stat and Cryptic Stealth gives 30 points. Do these have a hidden 10 and 15% crit buff too to make up for the % loss then?
DF  Post #: 72
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