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Why do the new bots have 30 more damage then average?

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7/16/2014 9:48:27   
Remorse
Member

This is a pure example of power creep.. Power Creep


There is no logical reason why they would need to make this robot deal extra damage nor is it justified.

It should deal the same as all other bots with a useful utility special effect...


If they wanted to make a robot that deals extra base damage then it needs a sacrifice,

For example they could make a bot that deals the same damage as this bot now but with no special ability, or an ability passive that reads deal extra damage!



Adding an absurd amount of damage to this bot looks to me like they are trying too hard to encourage people to buy it and once again balance takes a hit as a result.





I don't care if this bot isn't particularity as useful as others, it should not be giving an absurd high damage with out justification.


The base damage for what utility robots should have has already been set (160 damage for me at level 36) and this can deviate for other reasons such as, the gamma bot has slightly higher then average damage to compensate for the fact it's special effect is merely another attack, and the infernal android is slightly weaker because the second attack can be a lot stronger, but no way should it deviate buy such an absurd amount (without justification), at the most it should be the same as gamma bot.










< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/16/2014 10:03:46 >
Epic  Post #: 1
7/17/2014 18:02:00   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Well the abyss bots are insanely OP even after the nerf the only fast counter can be accessed by only one class (hybrid armour)

The nerf made no difference

The insane opness of this bot is most obvious in 2v2 .

Probably why they're having to increase damage because they haven't come up with a idea more op to get folk to part with there cash. So increasing damage is the easy option.

And if anyone wants to try and claim the abyss bot isn't op you might want to think what every class has to do aside from merc to counter those debuffs.
Post #: 2
7/18/2014 0:57:56   
Remorse
Member

I agree, the abyss bot is broken,

I won't necessarily say they are OP, because they simply can't be countered aside from one skill (hybrid armor) if they are still strong even when their are multiple counters available to all then I will make the statement this bot is OP.


I say they make a counter core that removes all non stat based negative effects (since this abyss bot removes armor and not stats then it would be included)

Other things this core would add is counter options for things like frostbite, hatch-ling rush etc.




I also think all robot damage should be standardized properly to make sense with the type of special it has,


For instance is the special was a strong attack (infernal android) then the base robot damage should be slightly lower then average (how it is now is great), if the special was weak or the same as the base attack but only slightly different, then they can add slightly more damage to the bot (gamma bot) and if the robot provides a special effect such as removes defenses etc. then it should be the standardized damage which would be 160 damage. (The assault robot needs to be buffed one damage to be standardized with this)




Robots that have visual upgrades such as the yetis should not necessarily be given a noticeable power advantage as it harms robot balance.


Perhaps to make sense with he visual upgrade they could give them the slightest of increase in power but nothing noticeable in battle,


For example the normal yeti starts at 160 damage, and then when it is upgraded to say the omega yeti it get 161/2 damage, rather then 170/180 damage which is causing harm to robot balance.


The devs should make sure they do not continue to release robots stronger then the standard or suffer the negative effects of power creep as well as hurting balance.



< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/18/2014 1:01:13 >
Epic  Post #: 3
7/18/2014 1:58:48   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Ya know if anything at the minute I'd say its primary secondary damage that needs a hit strength based weapons I see as a issue , Focus not so much to many drawbacks extremely limited with stats.

And for one bot you can only use so every so many turns

Why most of the time people aren't using them for dmg

more often then not just doing 30 dmg to unleash the op cores.
Post #: 4
7/18/2014 2:36:33   
Mother1
Member

Actually there is another counter to Necrosis in the form of the armored roots core. While it's effect isn't as long as hybrid armor it essentcially does the same thing as hybrid armor would and to top it off it is also a counter to Azreal's will.
Epic  Post #: 5
7/18/2014 5:07:59   
Variation
Member
 

 The high damage on this bot doesn't overpower it at all, it's actually pretty justified. The developers probably made it have a high base damage because its special deals no damage unlike most robots. The special is next to useless in 1v1, dealing no damage just to gain 50% rage is rarely worth it. Maybe if you're using a suicide tank/dex mage the special would have a decent use, but most players aren't using those kinda builds. I own those robots and I don't use them in 1v1 or 2v2 because the Blood Hawks and Black Abyss bots are superior to them. I will say that this promo is pretty balanced, but that is the reason I rarely see people with the items. Players want powerful promos, not balanced promos which is why the Azrael and Black Abyss promos were so popular. The developers have to make money somehow and creating promos that are very close in power to items offered in game won't do it. Promos should be unique and worth buying.
Post #: 6
7/18/2014 5:12:30   
Remorse
Member

@ mother,

True I forgot about that one mother,


Still though, they need a direct removal counter to deal with persistent curse like effects such as necrosis, hatch-ling, frostbite etc.


@noobatron,

I'm not saying nerf robots in general,

I am saying they need to make all bots more consistent, in some cases they need to be buffed in strength such as the assault bot.



I would be saying the same thing about guns and primaries if they had large varying amounts of power.

It's important to keep consistency in weapons, for things like bots their are always exceptions to which you can deviate but it should follow a set of rules such as trade-offs that still allow it to be semi equal.



I do agree that something needs to be done about STR based attacks (and have a few ideas on how to solve it as well) though that is not the topic of the thread.


@ variation,


I never said these bots are overpowered, I just don't like the fact it's damage is high and unjustified,


with your point saying that it deals no damage, that is a fair point, however their are other bots that deal no damage with the special and either they get buffed up to this bot or this one is slightly lowered for consistency!



Consistency is what will prevent future balance issues,

Just because something is seemingly balanced compared to some stronger special bots (such as the abyss bot) doesn't mean they can break consistency!




How about this, if you think 190 robot damage is reasonable for a robot with no damage with it's special then they could make a rule that bots following this description are given 190 damage,

Bots that have a special and deal damage can be given 180 damage, bots that have a stronger special over the base attack can be given 170 damage (infernal android), and bots with no special effect and an equal in power or less special can have either 190 damage or 200 damage (gamma bot).



All I am asking for here is that they make a set of rules for bots to have consistent damage to prevent future issues and to prevent power creep, as well as stopping older bots becoming insignificant.




I highly agree with your statement, Promos should be unique, not necessarily equal in power.


I think the bonus rage robot is relatively unique (not very useful but ok) then they ruin this effort by making the damage too high in comparison to other bots with a similar description, which makes those bots similar worse and those bots with a better special no less attractive so their really is no need to make it deviate from a consistent damage.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/18/2014 5:30:22 >
Epic  Post #: 7
7/18/2014 5:49:13   
Variation
Member
 

 Both the Black Abyss and Blood Hawks have 170 base damage and both of their specials deal decent damage (if you're using focus). With the Lionhart bots if you use your special you wasted a turn doing no damage and can't use the bot until three full rounds have passed. Both of those robots are promo bots that not only have specials that deal damage, but specials that are superior to the Lionhart bots' special. That is why the Lionhart bots' base damage is completely justified. I wouldn't see justification for the Lionhart bots' base damage if the special wasn't so lousy, but that isn't the case as it stands.

< Message edited by Variation -- 7/18/2014 5:51:51 >
Post #: 8
7/18/2014 6:42:09   
Remorse
Member

^ So your basing that logic of only two other new bots? Which might I add both do very similar things.

Does that mean all other bots are insignificant..?



I think a lot of players have come to accept power creep as if it's not a problem..

Old items shouldn't become outdated because of a lack of power anyway!


I started to agree with you before if you did not bother to read the whole text I wrote,

But I also said, that all the older bots that are in the same boat as the lionheart bots need to be buffed then (such as the assault bot)


Because it came out of a promo means nothing!


Why is it ok for the lion heart bot to do 190 yet the assault bot merely do 150 despite it not dealing damage with the special like you said?



I am Not calling for balance for this bot because I think it's OP ( I don't) please put that out of your mind and consider the problem of power creep, the old robots will be nothing if slowly they continue on this path.

If we don't accept stronger primary promos in terms of damage (anymore) then neither should we accept it in bots!

< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/18/2014 6:48:43 >
Epic  Post #: 9
7/18/2014 7:20:35   
Variation
Member
 

 The old robots minus Infernal Android, Gamma Bot, and Pyro Fly(a little iffy) have been nothing long before the Lionhart robots were introduced. I would be completely fine with them buffing Assault Bot, but the price would need to be heavily increased or it would devalue the new promo so much it would be pathetic. While power creep is enough justification for the Assault Bot to be buffed, it isn't enough justification for a direct nerf to the Lionhart bots' damage. Since the Lionhart bots aren't overpowered their damage should be left untouched (general statement to the thread). Like I've said compared to some other bots these bots are complete trash, they don't need to be made even trashier(general statement to the thread).

< Message edited by Variation -- 7/18/2014 7:23:45 >
Post #: 10
7/18/2014 7:39:41   
Remorse
Member

^ I agree, they should all me made consistent!


Like I have been saying this whole time...


They can be consistently stronger (all up to the par of lionheart) or weaker (nerf lionheart)

The point is they need to be consistent.
Epic  Post #: 11
7/18/2014 8:02:38   
suboto
Member

I will admit the assault bots base damage needs to raise since its special isnt quite good enough.
Infernal android is 150dmg because 35% special.
Assault bot 150dmg special 65% cleanse damage for this robot needs to be 170

All robots should equal same damage output to be honest after all we are omega all equal just not promo equal.
All robot damage adjusted to equal each other's and as i said before buffing the robot based on lvling or just make base damage same....
If they make all robots 170 base damage then
ia needs special nerfed to 30%
if all robots 180damage then
ia needs special nerfed to 25%
As of now 150/160damage robots are underpowered against the 170/180 robots oh wow its 190dmg lion bot my bad.... Well i can see how that lion bot can be a oped pay 2 win item for lower to a few upper level players.
I agree with all robots having same damage

< Message edited by suboto -- 7/18/2014 8:07:54 >
Epic  Post #: 12
7/18/2014 13:05:03   
Xamurai
Member

Wooooow I can't believe i even have to waste time writing this.
1. Different bot cores Different bots have different specials. Which i agree should affect their total damage output. Seems the lionhart bot's special makes you essentially skip a turn. I think the balance of giving it 190 base damage was a good plan as compensation. @Suboto The assault bots core is EXTREMELY useful. And can be strategically implemented in non focus builds. Eg- a str bm that has just been smoked, can instead of using mana they need for another skill such as mark of blood, they can use the core. So assault bot's core being so versatile compensates for the "low" damage. I think infernal android needs a small debuff. Such is it cannot stack past 120% damage.

Im sorry but this post is just rather annoying in general. If you actually consider all the factors of the bots, Their damage vs their special ability, You will see why this post is pointless.

< Message edited by Xamurai -- 7/18/2014 13:32:48 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
7/18/2014 15:19:59   
ffeeeee
Member

@Xamurai

I completely agree on the point that you made,"Different bot cores Different bots have different specials. Which i agree should affect their total damage output."

I think that there is still some balance issues with bots damage and there specials like the abyss bots, which grant a decrease on both defense and resistance. This is absurdly strong and can be used effectively on any build because of the fact that there is no way to counter this besides hybrid armor. To balance this i think the damage should be dropped 150 or 160 damage. I know that this isn't totally part of the topic of damage, but The abyss bot's version (meaning energy or physical) should match whether the defense or resistance is being taking away. Ex: black abyss bot E's special takes away only resistance not defense

Sorry if you can't fully understand. I'm not that good at writing, but hopefully you can get the point. Oh, and sorry for the earlier post I didn't know how to delete it
Post #: 14
7/19/2014 5:29:34   
Remorse
Member

Guys I get that the new bots special is bad, and that the damage for it is compensating for it.


However in this case their are many other bots then with not as useful specials,
And their base damage is extremely low.


Aussult bot is useful I agree, however if you use it and you also plan on using it for damage you have to sacrifise massive damage for this robots special.

Which considering the special isn't overly strong, I think the aussult bot should be buffed.


And there are many bots in the same boat, for example the bioborg bot, that robots special is pretty useless either the special gets buffed or the damage is.



What the point of this thread was bots should have consistent damage when considering the usefulness and strength of the special.



People forget that their are many older bots that are hardly used and this greatly annoys me.


If any thing robots with the very useful offensive specials (such as the abyss bot) those are the bots that should have damage like assault bot (not close to the highest power for bots)

Where as those with less useful specials can get strong base damage like the lion heart one.



The point of my thread was not to complain about the strength of lionheat, I know it's not OP, I am complaining about the inconsistency in bot damage to special usefulness ratio.




The reason I felt the need to shine light on the base damage of the lionheart bot, is because it creates an unfair new standard of base damage for bots with weak spacial, and I am unhappy that older bots with less useful specials as now even less useful because of the power creep in robot damage.





I think all bots should have equal chance of being picked by the player, if their special is not very good then the base damage should compensate for this, however this is not the case for MANY older bots!



I do like how they compensate for this new bot with high damage to make it compete to a degree with bots like black abyss, however it completely destroys the competitiveness for older bots.




There are multiple ways to fix this issue,

They could nerf the damage of robots with strong offensive specials (like black abyss etc) or they could bring the damage of older bots with less useful damage into par with the new standard of 190 damage that this new lionheart bot has created.




< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/19/2014 5:35:23 >
Epic  Post #: 15
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