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RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath

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7/27/2014 2:14:19   
comicalbike
Member

well the game has changed a lot now, the problem is hardly any players left so who won, every one says they wont this and that look where its got the game, most players left, only 2 servers lagg hard job to get fights, you have to have what people like and they want to play or no game
Epic  Post #: 51
7/27/2014 6:25:03   
Scyze
Member

quote:

The players suggested it and people rant about how the Devs thought of it lol
Please show me where I've put the blame onto the Dev's.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 52
7/27/2014 6:32:52   
kaiseryeux21
Member

As i read all the comments about this certain topics, i was impressed with how players backed-up their arguments with different views and opinions. But i guess the hiding losses aftermath have their own pros and cons, but i would have to agree with variation on this one. Players should have the OPTION to hide or show their record. this option is not really game breaking like balance issues so i don't see any reason not to implement it. As mention, players played this game for so many different reasons and we have to respect it. Like for example Players A just want to have fun and don't care about their record, while Player B treat their record as a sort of motivation to continue to be better. If you are the kind of player like Player A, then hide yor record, no one really cares. If you are the kind of player like Player B, then you brag about ur record because anyway, you worked hard to achieved it. As simple as that, end of argument perhaps.
DF Epic  Post #: 53
7/27/2014 10:11:11   
DeathGuard
Member

quote:

^ You, know the player harassment excuse is just really not going to fly,
Why?
Because harassment is something all multilayer games have to accept, they can lesson it with reporting and banning features,
But the day they sacrifice gaming content for possible slight less harassment is the day the game goes down hill.
It's like saying maybe they should just completely remove chat so then people can't possibly harass others...
Yet at what point do we have to accept the harassment, manage it and move on?
I think removing many players incentive to play was a major step too far!

I could say the same with the argument that the removement of losses "destroyed" or made the battles lose their meaning. As mentioned before, it only brings self satisfaction which is subjective and doesn't generalizes like the removal of losses. Now players barely harrass you about your losses or ratios because they have no weapon to do so.
Harrasment musn't be accepted. It happens, I can agree but must not be part of how a community behaves. Banning and reporting haven't solve this problem because people become aggressive after some time of being harrased too.
Nobody is sacrificing content for less harrassment and nor the Devs will in the future. Removal of losses didn't obstruct the work of making content at all.
Was it really an incentive? The feeling of self satisfaction behind your ratio and low losses reflected that clearly, it was just another factor that lead to some players to harras players and you're telling them to accept that and move on? It isn't that easy.

quote:

Please show me where I've put the blame onto the Dev's.
I said "The players" which is in general, never said "You're blaming the Devs." Read carefully next time.

@Kaiseryuex21: That's where you're wrong. People cared about your record in the past, it was used as some sort of requirement for entering factions and another way of harrassment.
It wouldn't surprised me if people cared and started to harrass you if you didn't show your losses because from their point of vew, you are afraid of showing your record. They would keep harrassing about it and the same suggestion would be told to the Devs of hiding your losses.

This is one of my worries. ED community is too immature to deny the possibility of other players harrassing others if you're able to show your losses. I can even bet that if this was to happen and you got harrassed, you would even think about hiding your losses after some time of being harrassed as well for other players who have said that losses have "destroyed" the game.



AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 54
7/27/2014 11:51:25   
Scyze
Member

quote:

I said "The players" which is in general, never said "You're blaming the Devs." Read carefully next time.
Its right there:
quote:

The players suggested it and people rant about how the Devs thought of it lol
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 55
7/27/2014 12:36:53   
DeathGuard
Member

@Scyze: Still a general word, never pointed out fingers at a specific person. You said you were told the changes would make diversity better, and who were the ones who told you that? The players, the people in this gaming community. Easy to figure it out.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 56
7/27/2014 12:52:57   
Mother1
Member

@ Deathguard

My thoughts exactly. The moment they put in that feature to give people the choice to hide their loses or not the harassment will come back from those who choose to hide them. I can see it happening due to the way some people thinking.

"Why are you not showing your record? It must be horrible if you refuse to show it."
"What have you got to hide? Show your record."

No one should have to put up with harassment in a game where they are suppose to have fun, not to mention as said many times the game is suppose to be kid friendly and harassment isn't friendly no matter what the age.
Epic  Post #: 57
7/27/2014 13:09:34   
DeathGuard
Member

@Mother1: I'm not against the idea of people just bragging their records by showing their losses but some would just abuse that to harass others.
I agree that no one should go through harassment, it may be in every gaming community but doesn't means we should accept it because it is happening, we should prevent more ways of harassment.
I wonder if they really prefer to be "motivated" by showing their ratios with the consequence of them being harassed in the process.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 58
7/27/2014 13:32:42   
Remorse
Member

@kaiseryeux21
Very well put.

@mother

I am sorry to hear about your harassment , but hiding loses is definitely not the best way to prevent it if the intention was to prevent harassment anyway.

Like you said before why not add a mute feature would that not single handedly fix all harassment problems?

If someone said anything you didn't like you could just mute them, perhaps it could work like a freinds list but instead call it an ignore list and the only way to register their chat would be to unignore them from the list.


I honestly don't think hiding loses was done just to prevent harassment and it's clearly no way near the best way to do it, why not implement one of many methods that don't harm players motivation to play?

Their is no point keeping this feature soley for the hararsement issue since their are better ways to address it, so unless someone can explain a better reason for it to stay fully hidden I see no reason why this should be the case.
Epic  Post #: 59
7/27/2014 15:02:14   
Variation
Member
 

 ^
quote:

We feel that publicly showing losses and win percentages can discourage players from battling or trying new builds. We’ve also opted to not track NPC losses since we want NPCs to be a very low-stress environment where you can freely experiment without feeling obligated to win every time.


According to Nightwraith that is the reason why losses are hidden. No where in that design notes post does he mention anything about harassment, that is something the community brought up to justify losses not showing. I agree with you Remorse, it's a poor excuse and there are better ways of going about it. We have a report system built just for handling abuse cases, and dedicated moderators to address those reports.

Harassment will always be an issue in this game. I've been harassed about my record because of how good it is, but it didn't bother me one bit. I understand that no one should be subject to harassment, but this is the online world, all we can do is report and move on with our lives.

As I've said players should at least have an option to show their records. I do realize we can't create a perfect system for this issue, but we can at least make a system that respects both parties' views. This is why I'm not asking for losses to be brought back 100%, I completely respect and understand that some players don't want their full records to show, but what about the players who do? We shouldn't leave them in the closet just to cater a portion of the community. Everyone themselves should have complete customization over their records. With this system if you don't want your record to show, you don't have to. If players harass you about not showing your record you can ignore them, report them, and move on with your life. These are just my view on this issue, and in my honest opinion it seems fair to both parties in this controversial issue.

< Message edited by Variation -- 7/27/2014 15:47:16 >
Post #: 60
7/27/2014 17:39:32   
DeathGuard
Member

@Variation: If you think harassment is a poor excuse to justify the denial of the comeback of ratios, I do think it is a poor excuse to bring back the losses just because some players don't feel motivated because people can't see their "ratios". Some players may want it but it doesn't favors the majority of the player base so it is most unlikely to be done. I think it is a poor excuse because it is a selfish reason that you guys are giving to bring it back just for the sole purpose of bragging off your "ratios".

We mentioned the harassment because it was one of the factors that lead to the suggestion being done.

The ones who don't want to show their ratios aren't favored at all. Instead, they will start to be harassed by bragging and immature players and that isn't being favored.

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 7/27/2014 17:43:12 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 61
7/27/2014 18:19:40   
Variation
Member
 

 ^I never said 100% bring back losses. I said that players will have a choice whether their full record shows or not. Players are still getting harassed all the time, what is next removing the public message system? As I've said it's a poor excuse, and Nightwraith himself didn't state that reason in the design notes post regarding losses. The game already has an ignore system, and an in-game report system. They weren't created to waste precious time. I'm sorry, but if players can't take advantage of what the developers have done for security in this game they shouldn't be playing online games. It isn't fair that players who play this game for their once visible records get screwed because immature players don't know how to ignore people. I know plenty of players with good win/loss ratios who don't brag, talk trash, and bully players who aren't as skilled as them. I have a really good overall record and I never brag about it. I even go out of my way to help players with builds and to defeat bosses. Once again I'm not asking for losses to return 100%, as I've said I understand that some players aren't fond of their records, but we need a solution that gives both parties a solution to the loss problem. The solution I and other forumers have posted does just that, it offers complete control over the visibility of your losses. This game needs to be doing updates that are for the most part fair to everyone. Hiding losses just because some players aren't mature enough to ignore and report is pathetic. It's quite funny how everyone is referencing harassment as a legit reason to remove losses. I rarely saw players getting harassed over win ratios, and most players who bragged didn't even have decent ratios.
Post #: 62
7/27/2014 18:32:14   
Mother1
Member

@ Variation

I know I use this saying once in this thread and I will say it once again.

A few rotten apples can spoil it for the whole bunch. I say this because a lot of changes and I mean a lot of changes in this game have been suggested that affect everyone due to a few suggesting changes or complaining about something. This here is no different.

Adding the option for players to show their loses without a mute button will open up that can of worms once again because any person who wants to harass you for not showing your record will start it up again.

If we had a mute button this idea would have never even been put into play, but since we can't have a mute button this is the next best thing cause if they can't see anyone's records they can't (which has been proven) harass people about their records.
Epic  Post #: 63
7/27/2014 18:48:50   
DeathGuard
Member

Calm down dude. I was being polite and I respect your opinion but that doesn't means I can't disagree with you. You should be more careful when adressing others. This is a forum of discussion, not a debate of who is right or who is wrong. I disagree and I'm defending my argument but I have no need of insulting anyone agreeing to this. If you want to insult players for not agreeing, you're not in the right place.

About your argument, it is foolish in its totality to be honest. If you try to diminish or insult the other participant of the discussion it means you don't have a valid counter argument to defend your point of view.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 64
7/27/2014 18:49:23   
kaiseryeux21
Member

@deathguard, with all due respect to you sir, telling me that i am wrong in a discussion where opinions matter most rather than facts is slightly immature.
You're experience in-game is definitely different from mine. I have in in a faction called ED WAR TRIBUNAL for nearly 3 years and we don't have this called FACTION REQUIREMENT as you mentioned. Our Faction leader shundraa just wants us to have fun and make friends with other people. Yes i know that there are factions who require members to have a better record and that's their prerogative. We just have to respect it. I also think issues about harassment is definitely a BROAD issue and showing losses isn't the only reason why it exist. Reasons like immature players, which originated from its own up-bringing or factors like country of origin is non-preventable. The moment ED introduced online game like ED, they certainly know that they will cater players like these and the least they can do is to implement a system like mute, ban, and other legal actions.

Also, players in game harass other players for so many reasons and this is based on my experience like being low-level, not using the best equipments in game, not having varium weapons, not using the most OP class, etc. My question to you is, should we also eliminate low levels, eliminate not the best equipments in game, eliminate the less OP build, just to prevent harassment? i certainly don't think so.

As what variation said, having an OPTION is the most perfect way to resolve this argument.
DF Epic  Post #: 65
7/27/2014 18:57:12   
DeathGuard
Member

@Kraiser: You were wrong because you stated it as a fact. You said people didn't care when they actually do. And that's the wrong part of your post, not the opinion of what you have of the removal of losses.
quote:

Like for example Players A just want to have fun and don't care about their record, while Player B treat their record as a sort of motivation to continue to be better. If you are the kind of player like Player A, then hide yor record, no one really cares. If you are the kind of player like Player B, then you brag about ur record because anyway, you worked hard to achieved it. As simple as that, end of argument perhaps.


I never said we should eliminate something. Losses weren't eliminated, they were hidden to other users except for the player itself. If you can quote me where I mentioned a delete of something, please post about it.

About the option, that's your point of view. Not everyone thinks it is the "perfect way". I don't support and I doubt I will ever agree to it BUT it doesn't means I don't respect your opinions which you have ignored for the whole time I have been posting my counter arguments.

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 7/27/2014 19:04:57 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 66
7/27/2014 19:01:14   
Variation
Member
 

 @DeathGuard: I didn't insult anyone, and I provided plenty of counter arguments in my posts in this thread. So please don't throw this thread off track with mindless accusations. You say the argument is foolish and you don't give supporting details. You only reference harassment, which I already addressed when I mentioned the ignore button and the in-game reporting system.

EDIT: I'm not posting in this thread anymore. I've said what I needed to say, and it's pointless arguing any further.

< Message edited by Variation -- 7/27/2014 19:33:52 >
Post #: 67
7/27/2014 19:26:13   
DeathGuard
Member

quote:

It isn't fair that players who play this game for their once visible records get screwed because immature players don't know how to ignore people.
So not ignoring someone is immature? That's insulting the people who didn't ignored them. We have no fault for them to harrasing us. If they do so, it is because they are immature not because we are "immature".
People adress others if they are being insulted and that means they are immature? If someone trashtalks someone close to you, would you just ignore them? You may have this "habit" of ignoring people but they are times when you can't ignore them but that doesn't means you're immature. It means you feel hurt and there's nothing bad about it. Continuos negative words have always affected players of all games and them ranting about the game or quitting the game because of the harassment doesn't means they are immature but that they decided to stop playing with the same people who keep offending them. Some of them even provide a better change of attitude when they stop ignoring them and confront them. If you knew what is the feeling of being bullied, you would understand that it isn't easy to just ignore people who offend you continuosly.
I think you're the person being immature just because other people do the contrary of what you do. It just shows how aggresive you can turn if someone disagrees because you feel they aren't respecting your opinion.

quote:

I'm sorry, but if players can't take advantage of what the developers have done for security in this game they shouldn't be playing online games
This may not be an insult but it is not polite because you don't have say if gamers should play an online game or not. You can't force this to other people because it is your opinion and those can't be forced here.

Your post is foolish due to the fact that you're targetting players by calling them immatures for not ignoring people who harass. That isn't a valid way to prove your point at all. It is enough reason not to take your post seriously as part of the discussion but as an offensive post.

Some important thing you're forgetting is that because you consider a point isn't valid, doesn't means everyone thinks the same. (In reference to your part that you said you "already adressed it")
The way you adressed it by saying people were immature for not ignoring and people that don't use the report system shouldn't be playing games isn't the right way to be adressing a point AT ALL.
People have been using the same point over and over about showing losses being fair and motivating people but I never said it was adressed and that it could depict as invalid. I kept presenting my arguments of why I thought it wasn't that way. So you can't tell me not to keep using harassing argument when everyone has gone through it and it contains valid information.


< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 7/27/2014 19:30:43 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 68
7/27/2014 20:57:46   
Scyze
Member

quote:

As I've said players should at least have an option to show their records.
I've been through Facebook throughout the time I played EpicDuel and never have I seen anyone post about someone's bad record. Unless it was through some other way, never!
I had a terrible 2v2 record, no one commented on that. Only comments of harassment I saw was when someone beat a certain someone. Lets say I got beat, someone could take a screenshot and call me a noob. It happened, I've seen it - not towards me though.

Plus in the EpicDuel community, you have people with insane win ratios. I know that if you had these records, you felt proud; but it also made you easy to target. There are loads of pictures of people bad mouthing one another because they lost to them. If I had an 80% win ratio, it was average was Wiseman pointed out, but if I had a 90% win ratio, it made it easy for people to take a picture and call me a noob - cause I lost to someone with a lower win ratio. *Not showing the pictures because it violates people's privacy (IMO). Heck I would show you the pictures if I wanted.*
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 69
7/27/2014 21:18:28   
kosmo
Member
 

 1v1 broken records still affect the game years after they removed npc wins.
The 1v1 personal percentage really didn t say anything about a player, it was useless.
What alot players miss is to get on leaderboards to show their 1v1 daily percentage, since high level players couldn t compete with low levels in wins, the percentage was the only thing that kept many of them motivated to get on leaderboard often.I understand dev s reasons and I agreed with them when they made the change, but I have to admit that it gets incredibly boring to play the game for players like me when theres no new stuff, it s only slow boring farming for power.
Epic  Post #: 70
7/27/2014 22:32:09   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 What good will showing losses do? Give you bragging rights? I say keep them hidden, people can actually make fun builds now without getting judged. Find a better reason than bragging rights. After all, I thought the point was to welcome people into the community. Not degrade them and judge them based on their losses
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 71
7/27/2014 23:57:05   
Remorse
Member

^
It depends on how you look at it, but I see it more as motivation not bragging rights.

To me the goal of the game is to win as much as possible but also have fun being creative.

Winning fast with quick kill builds does not interest me in the slightest and using them is just as bad as versing them.

The fact hiding loses makes the game more about speed is a huge reason.

And let me tell you creative builds have no more incentive to be used with hidden loses because they get smashed by mindless quick kill builds. I think the incentive to be creative is actually dramatically lowered.




Also if your arguement is it has no advantage brining it back,

Then asnwer me this, what advantage does it give?

Please don't say it lowers harasement because this is a stupid way to do so, also if someone uses that argument agian without adressesing the counter arguements by myself and variation then their is no point in it being said nor will it recieve a response.

@deathgaurd
All you are doing now is picking apart variations post and complaining about the tone...
Why don't you answer his counter agruments instead of trying to make his points less meaningful by pointlessly pointing out the tone of his post?


You still have not answered the point of their being much better ways to deal with harasement which uf you didn't notice is what variation has been trying to say.





< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/28/2014 0:07:45 >
Epic  Post #: 72
7/28/2014 0:44:26   
DeathGuard
Member

He used them as "valid arguments" so I just gave my opinion about them. While I'm "addressing" his tone, I have the right to post about that because I'm posting arguments of why I don't think the same thing as him.

One of his counterarguments gave me the chills
quote:

you have to realize you aren't the only person that plays this game
Well, Mr.Obvious did a great job on this.
His counterarguments of people being pathetic for not using the security system this game offers? Can't take those seriously.

I will be glad to explain my arguments to you though, at least you have the politeness of addresing a question as it should be.
People used those and still are harassed by other players. Even with mutes or report features, players keep harassing other players.
Apart from mutes, reports or ignore features, there isn't really other way to stop the harassment. The problem doesn't lies on the system's ability to stop harassment but in the players' attitude.
You can't tell someone to change over the internet and expect them to "change" for better. It is really hard to convince someone without them retaliating.

Ignores, mutes and report features serve as an escape to the problem but not as a solution.

If we wanted to solve this, we could try to adress the players harassing and try to make them understand it isn't right to do that. This may not be the best thing to do but doesn't means it isn't worth a try. We could try to promote a good behavior in the community and maybe reach some lvl of politeness btw players which would made several things to be brought back without having to worry much about the people's behavior. I know ED is aimed at a young age audience but still doesn't means they can't be polite.
Probably some sort of promotional contest like the Drawing Safety Awareness they did about why you shouldn't trust people with your passwords, accounts, etc. A game isn't obliged to teach players how to behave, but doesn't means they can try to make the community a bit better.
I hope that satisfies your question and I would like to know what's your answer on your question too.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 73
7/28/2014 0:46:27   
Mother1
Member

@ remorse

True people look at it differently. However, while for you it may be for motivation, for another as you pointed it could be for bragging rights.

I don't know how many times I have seen people get put down due to their battle records when I do 2 vs 2 battles back when loses were visible. Half the time people who were doing this had even worse records than the person they were trash talking too.

Removing loses ended the harassment in this area seeing as no one knows your record which took away the ability for them to mock players over it.

As I pointed out several times if they add the feature to give people the choice of seeing loses or not that will only benefit the people who are upset about not letting their records show? Why? because anyone who hides their record when they have the choice of showing it will become the targets of these players.

They will get harassed about why are they hiding their records for? and accused of having bad ones due to this feature. So in a sense this option will benefit those who want bragging rights and motivation like you but will hurt everyone who requested the ability to hide loses in the first place because as long as any record can be shown you choosing to hide it leave you open to that harassment.
Epic  Post #: 74
7/28/2014 2:39:27   
shadow.bane
Member

i say loses must be hidden also from the player too ! like no one can see your loses (like now) even you can't see your own loses xD

_____________________________

Bane Hallow The Last Shadow Fiend.
AQW Epic  Post #: 75
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