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RE: BMs way OPed

 
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8/16/2014 17:27:05   
dfo99
Member
 

this thread also is about balance in edgd
Post #: 26
8/16/2014 17:29:04   
Mother1
Member

@ Dfo99

depends on your class and build. His build uses high energy which most classes can't destroy fast enough. However blood mage can due to energy parasite. This one skill is high energy builds greatest threat. Normally this wouldn't be an issue for someone however when you fact the same build and class 90% of the time due to it being a flavor build it tends to make people rage screaming in their head "WHY CAN'T SOMETHING ELSE BUT (insert my bane build/class here) Show up?

This is why many people request nerfs. Also as I pointed out this build came to life the moment energy parasite gained it's 85% damage tag which made it a decent damage skill for strength BM. Do I have issues with them? Sometimes however other times I beat them.

Heck sometimes I use skills to make them play the way I want and most of the time it is quite rewarding.

@ Thylek Shran

This build while it can be overwhelming at times depending on the class and build it goes against isn't overpowered. Your build just so happens to be a build this flavor build can counter very easily due to Energy parasite. The skill itself is a double edged sword. Weak against low energy but strong against high energy builds.

Now add to the fact that your bane build is a flavor build and you are seeing more times than you like then you got this situation. Maybe you should change your build and not put so many skill points into high energy moves. A lower level skill may cost less, and do less damage, but in the end you will have a better chance of using it than you would if you max out the skill.

Still as I pointed out before there is still an issue with strength itself seeing as many things favor it from rage, to strike.
Epic  Post #: 27
8/16/2014 17:39:11   
dfo99
Member
 

i am bm, while i can defeat this high ranked guy easy (Thylek Shran), i have several troubles with others like syfy (merc), canibal corporse (bh) ionut 100 (when has tm) and others near same my rank.
Post #: 28
8/16/2014 17:48:02   
Thylek Shran
Member

@Satafou
quote:

Overpowered is when something is near to or is unbeatable.

OPed is just something that is more powerfull as it should be.
As example a skill that could do the same damage as another skill at
similar conditions but for less energy cost. As all your arguments
are based on your own and different definition I cannot follow you there.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 8/16/2014 17:51:29 >
DF Epic  Post #: 29
8/16/2014 18:11:37   
Variation
Member
 

^Even with your definition the skill still isn't "OPed." I could understand if it worked off your opponents maximum energy, but it doesn't. If someone Energy Parasites you after the first round you can control their gain/drain by using energy. This is part of the reason why I had absolutely no trouble with BMs as a BH/Merc, and often made them cry hard because I simply exploited their decision to energy parasite me. The problem is your build, not BM being "OPed." No class should have to suffer a nerf because players don't want to invest time into counters, it's ridiculous. Yes Energy Parasite is a major drawback to high energy players, does that mean it should be nerfed? It absolutely doesn't, because the skill is still able to be countered. Blood Mage as a class is pretty balanced, and most of the complaints I see are just from people who want one build to rule them all. Every build will have strength and weaknesses if your weaknesses are too easily exploited then that is a build problem, not a balance problem.
Post #: 30
8/16/2014 18:14:07   
Gold Shock
Member

quote:

mercs counter Blood mage with their skill tree set,


@Thylek

This is spot on, we can't just go nerfing every build that beats yours because then that would make your build overpowered and then it would need a nerf. How can they be overpowered if another classes skill tree counters them completely if played right. People are giving you suggestions but you seem not willing to try it. You will never be able to fully counter every class 100%. In your case, you are going to have to drop your energy. I'd recommend anywhere from default-650 energy. Having a max skill is most likely your problem as well. I found having a build that can still win even being blocked, critical-ed, and deflected are better than ones that depend on 1 skill's sheer damage.

< Message edited by Gold Shock -- 8/16/2014 18:16:09 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 31
8/16/2014 18:21:33   
The berserker killer
Member

 

quote:

A few of you are saying that you can counter every build including BM with maxed Parasite.
The problem is that you then have more or less huge weaknesses against other builds.


Well no offense but DUH no build/player is to be able to conquer all. The mods have said that themselves.

@Variation: You're right. The retrain button is there for a reason guys. Invest some credits and make a new build.

@Trans: That's basically what im saying. Str is flawed

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 8/16/2014 18:23:40 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 32
8/17/2014 1:12:21   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


Because I'm way too lazy and didn't really feel like reading everyone's posts, this reply is based pretty much just off of the first few responses and the OP.

First off, I do recall saying that BM was one of the stronger classes multiple times over the past few months because its win rate was obscenely high. Now people realize.

Secondly, the OP mentions plasma cannon is really strong. It's not really, and this is coming from a lot of personal experience fiddling around with many different plasma cannon builds.

BMs are borderline OP mainly because of energy parasite fitting a really strong role in the current battle mechanics, but before the buff people who knew how to use them really well were still getting very strong win rates. Energy parasite needed a buff to make it more usable, but not necessarily drastically stronger. Conclusively, IMO energy parasite shouldn't have been buffed in a way that pretty much benefits strength builds for the most part. If they fix up energy parasite and mark of blood a bit, then BMs will hopefully return to their previous position of being very rewarding but also very tricky to use rather than one of the more straightforward and simple classes like BH were all you do is literally smoke -> mark of blood -> strikefest -> heal/static grenade when obviously needed.I am perfectly fine with any class including BM being OP, but only as long as its OP status is not easily accessible by a large majority of the playerbase. Basically, if it's really hard to be a god with but it does have the potential to be godly in strength, then let it be so.

Epic  Post #: 33
8/17/2014 6:01:34   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

i am bm, while i can defeat this high ranked guy easy (Thylek Shran), i have several troubles with others like syfy (merc), canibal corporse (bh) ionut 100 (when has tm) and others near same my rank.

Well Ionut 100 is BM now and Cannipal Corpse does use the violet cheater gun which makes him strong.

Btw I have to say that Bludgeon is even more OPed than Energy Parasite. But it only works well with a
strenght build and especially well with Mark Of Blood.

quote:

If someone Energy Parasites you after the first round you can control their gain/drain by using energy.

Not the best turn to use it but while you will be busy to regenerate energy the BM just will Bludgeon or Plasma Cannon you.
To catch up this HP deficite is nearly impossible as the BM will gain Rage first for another Bludgeon/Plasma Cannon while
your Field Medic will be still in cooldown for some turns.

quote:

This is spot on, we can't just go nerfing every build that beats yours

Its not about me only. There is a serious problem with balance when lvl 38 BMs and low ranked 40s can beat
experienced rank 40+ TMs and CHs and surely also other classes. It seems that TMs and CHs now belong to
the weaker classes. I also donīt see much other TMs around beside me anymore. Just a few dex TMs while
all others have changed their class to BM.

quote:

People are giving you suggestions but you seem not willing to try it.

They are not good suggestions and it will not solve the problem of the OPed skills and builds.
I played around a bit with a level 5 and 6 Super Charge but it was worse than a maxed one
as battles are just to short and damage output of opponents (mostly HP str mercs and BMs)
to huge. So stop saying that my build is bad as it is not. You just want to distract from the
balance problem it seems Gold Shock.



< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 8/17/2014 6:03:50 >
DF Epic  Post #: 34
8/17/2014 6:12:10   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


TMs are among the weaker classes now? Please. Nothing changed from when TMs were being decried as OP - nothing, that is, but that people found counter-builds, stopped complaining, and moved on. CHs have a problem because of Static Charge, but otherwise the classes are largely balanced.

You cannot possibly say that BMs are 'OPed' when I can consistently beat higher-levelled BMs.

What we can say is that a great deal of BMs are using builds that TMs and CHs struggle against when they are using conventional builds. And believe me when I say that the conventional builds of TMs and CHs are easy to beat - they are wholly predictable and depend way too much on regaining energy after using it liberally, with no understanding of how to manoeuvre around cooldown times. Try using energy conservatively like most other classes and Parasite won't be as much of an issue. Like not relying on Supercharge, for example (if you have your ultimate skill as the focal point of your build, you are definitely going to have a bad time)

Furthermore, Thylek, it would be useful if you stop using sensationalist and inaccurate accusations like 'violet cheater gun' or 'Plasma Cannon is OP (are you kidding?)'

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 8/17/2014 6:19:28 >
Post #: 35
8/17/2014 6:47:01   
  Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED


"Violet cheater gun"

I wonder what this is..

Please don't tell us using an item put into the game for actual use is now considered cheating to you?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 36
8/17/2014 9:24:19   
kaiseryeux21
Member

you want good advise thylek? minmize NPCing and fight more with PVP. Might as well discover strategies to win against BM.
DF Epic  Post #: 37
8/17/2014 10:22:46   
The berserker killer
Member

 

I get beat by LVL 38 Dex Mages yet they haven't been nerfed in how long? Oh.

If you get beat by 38s then that's your problem thylek. I can not lie, some lvl 38s
just have amazing builds that I even ss and use at lvl 40. But that's the game, its a PVP
and youre supposed to make BUILDS.

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 8/17/2014 10:23:48 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 38
8/17/2014 11:09:20   
theholyfighter
Member

Here's a fact tho.

MoB and EP both have effects on turn used, and they hardly have any considerable cooldown.

But TMs considered weak? No...

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 8/17/2014 11:11:19 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 39
8/17/2014 12:19:22   
Gold Shock
Member

quote:

So stop saying that my build is bad as it is not. You just want to distract from the
balance problem it seems Gold Shock.


Distract you? I've been a mercenary since early beta and have never posted a " OP' thread. I never said your build was bad in any means, your just putting words in my mouth. Remember this famous quote thylek:
Winning is Right, Losing is Wrong. Evolve or Die.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 40
8/17/2014 15:15:48   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


quote:

Conclusively, IMO energy parasite shouldn't have been buffed in a way that pretty much benefits strength builds for the most part. If they fix up energy parasite and mark of blood a bit, then BMs will hopefully return to their previous position of being very rewarding but also very tricky to use rather than one of the more straightforward and simple classes like BH were all you do is literally smoke -> mark of blood -> strikefest -> heal/static grenade when obviously needed.


Gonna quote/state this again. Maybe they should buff the other stats rather than nerf strength-based builds so that strength can still be rewarding because it's simple and moderately strong, but it's far easier to outplay those kinds of builds with strategy.
Epic  Post #: 41
8/17/2014 20:03:17   
kosmo
Member
 

Merc is stronger than blood mage, lock this thread please.

< Message edited by kosmo -- 8/17/2014 20:06:31 >
Epic  Post #: 42
8/17/2014 20:11:54   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


Blood Commander Merc hard counters pretty much all BM builds; it does not mean that Merc as a class is better than BM.
Epic  Post #: 43
8/17/2014 20:52:13   
DeathGuard
Member

Skills that are strong won't make a class "overpowered". The misuse of the term is one thing that's giving a bad impression to the whole thread.
No build in ED has been "OP'ed". None.
Every single of those builds were beatable.
Just as every class has always been beatable, no matter what build they use.

Yes, they are builds that are too strong due to the strong synergy in their class' skill tree, but doesn't means it turns to OP if your build can't defeat it.
Lets remember your experiences are subjective, and may not be the same as others.
Most of the people here have been pointing how strong BM is, but they have also post how they have manage to beat BMs.
The so called Caster build of TMs is strong too(not OP), but it is beatable.

You just need the right build that matches not only your current skills and strategy, but also how you use the core weapons/items you have to make it work.
I fought some Tank Tech Mage using Pyro Fly and when he disabled my Static Grenade right after I used it, I thought I was doomed for but I was completely wrong. I forced him to keep healing or wasting his energy until I could finally use Generator, heal myself and start to kill him once again. I survived with around 200 hp in that battle. It wasn't that the player was weak, or that his/her build was weak, rather the strategy I used to beat him is what outstand him in battle giving me the win.
And if you think I'm a high rank, sadly, I'm not. I'm Rank 4.

If you say some skill makes some class too strong, I could say Smoke also does the same but that's not the case.
  • Smoke is the strongest of the 3 skill debuffs currently in-game imo. Not only it gives you more chances to be able to block, but also it gives you more chances to connect and to deal more damage with physical damage.
  • In Malfuncton's case, you are able to deflect his attacks and also to deflect as well as giving you less chances to get your attacks deflected and deal more damage with energy damage but once you stop using deflectable attacks, it won't serve you that much.
  • Intimidation is special in its own. It debuffs part of your strength, and that prevents a lot of incoming damage from builds base on STR, but it doesn't gives you the extra damage as Smoke or Malfunction. To be honest, I had be interested if it not only affected your STR but also SUP.
    e.g. If Intimidate does -42 strength, the percentage could increase the -% it currently does to both stats.
    If that occured, lets say a buff of 7%, it would be split btw the two stats.
    42/2= 21 + (42)(0.07)= -24 to support and strength. I think it had prove useful to put Intimidation almost on par with the other skills but that's just my opinion.

    My point is that even if Smoke proves to be stronger than other debuffs, it doesn't makes BH certainly stronger or "OP" than other classes just for having that skill. It isn't an enough reason.
    Parasite is indeed strong and could have some little nerf on how it works, but it doesn't makes BM "OP" at all.

    Also About Azrael's Gun, the so-called "Violet Cheater Gun", it isn't part of your current problem. It is helpful in some cases, but it also requires 175 energy which is enough for a heal or even to shield/debuff so that's a deficit to the user's own energy. It was nerfed already, quite the times and still hasn't been prove to be one of the main reasons of BM being "OP".


    < Message edited by DeathGuard -- 8/17/2014 20:55:31 >
  • AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 44
    8/18/2014 6:45:07   
    .Sir Lazarus.
    Member

    Stop crying and make a build to beat it....
    AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 45
    8/18/2014 8:13:52   
    King Bling
    Member

    @ All who say "Stop crying and try making a build against a bm"

    People 1vs1 no only to beat a bm, but also other classes, so you people stop crying crying to make people make builds against bm.

    And yes if thylek wants he can "abuse" the class too, hes so high a rank that being a bm he might be unstoppable still hes using a tm f5 build so...........
    Post #: 46
    8/18/2014 8:54:53   
    DeathGuard
    Member

    @King Bling: You're able to make a build to beat most of the other classes' build if you try.
    I use a semi tank and I'm able to at least, kill most of the builds of other classes without being weak to a specific class.

    Also there's nothing wrong about a specific build being able to counter you. It happens to everyone. You may have stronger equipment or higher rank, but if that build abuses your weakness, and if he makes a good strategy, you're probably done for the battle.
    Reading from what Thylek has been saying, a specific build has been able to counter his build, because he didn't mentioned other class being able to stop him(this doesn't means he didn't lose against other classes).

    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 47
    8/18/2014 17:03:50   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    Looking at the OP:

    People lose to level 38 BM builds when they're 40 and have a good rank because, with every new build, it counters the current FotM build and soon will eventually become the next FoTM build, in which people will again create a new counter build, and thus the cycle repeats.
    Epic  Post #: 48
    8/18/2014 20:57:29   
      Grixus Faldor



    Please remember to be constructive when posting criticism:

    quote:

    Constructive Criticism

  • What is it?
    Constructive criticism is being able to process and offer your own thoughts and opinions in order to give courteous and friendly feedback. This is done by explaining what you like and dislike, while at the same time providing feedback that is useful. This is what separates constructive feedback from ranting/complaining and flaming.

  • Does it help? How?
    Yes! Constructive criticism helps because not only are you giving feedback about what you don't like about a quest/event, but you're also giving feedback about what you DID like in the quest. Feedback could include on such topics as statistics, more dialogue, more explanatory cutscenes, more fights - everything that quests or events would normally include. This gives the game staff a better idea on future improvements.

  • Example of Constructive Criticism:
    "I didn't partularly like this war because it felt too empty. To have made it better, I think the staff could have had a 50% cutscene to unlock rather than just a shop to progress the storyline. As it was, I personally was a little dissapointed that this war felt more rushed than previous wars, however I do understand that the staff had a lot on their plate when making this release.
    That said, I greatly enjoyed the boss fight, the animations and art fit perfectly with the song that was playing in the background. So while not one of the best wars DF have done, I still enjoyed it. Thank you, DF staff!"


  • Example of Unconstructive Criticism:
    "I didn't like this war at all. What were the staff thinking? The items in the shop were ugly, overpriced and were bugged!! No cutscene? That was never done before and it is not how it should be done ever. Seriously, doesn't the staff ever listen to us?! The boss fight was too hard and took forever to beat :( And there was no sound. I dont think the staff even care anymore. Best war ever /sarcasm I hate this game D:<!"
  • AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 49
    8/19/2014 23:59:57   
    doomkiller98
    Member

    quote:

    @ All who say "Stop crying and try making a build against a bm"

    People 1vs1 no only to beat a bm, but also other classes, so you people stop crying crying to make people make builds against bm.

    And yes if thylek wants he can "abuse" the class too, hes so high a rank that being a bm he might be unstoppable still hes using a tm f5 build so...........


    The most smartest thing ive read all day.
    You cant just counter 1 build. Otherwise your just gonna get destroyed against any other build.
    Post #: 50
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