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Strength and Support Balancing

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10/12/2014 18:42:13   
Yo son
Member

Why does secondary damage increase with strenght? or more importantly why doesn't secondary damage increase with support?

Strength gives an unlimited source of damage; support gives a source of damage that has 3 turn cooldown.

Gun(secondary) has a two turn cool down but yet a primary weapon does more damage per given stat.


As it stands right now strenght has the worst vibe/outlook in this game; support on the other hand, has always been a classy stat.

So my question is, why/how does it make sense to have the secondary scale with strength?

What if this was the reason strenght was always a problem in this game?

Would this not be the most effective way of balancing strength and support?

Please do not give "because it makes sense in real life" since this is a video game not real life; also it does not.

Please discuss!

Moved from ED GD to ED Balance. Made title more accurate. ~Battle Elf


< Message edited by Battle Elf -- 10/13/2014 9:53:27 >
Post #: 1
10/12/2014 19:59:06   
Wootz
Member

The best answer to that is:
Support provides more RNG bonuses then Strenght does, thus making another somewhat consistent damage output stat irrelevant.

In other words
If the gun was to scale with Support it would become more useful then Strenght, thus making it useless in battles because you could loop support scaling skills/attacks loop easily.
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
10/12/2014 22:19:12   
Yo son
Member

that used to be true, but now it is not anymore. One of the most important skill that support improved was field medic, but that was removed a not so long time ago. In addition to criticals, support also improved deflection rate, but that was also removed from one of its benefits also. And lets face it, first turn initiative is based on luck with support only slightly improving chances.

Also isn't that the point? what is the best way to promote diversity? how about encouraging the use of a stat that is diversified in every class.

Meanwhile strength, dex, and tech are all generic stats. One of the biggest problem with this game is the generic nature of all the classes; strenght is the most generic skill of all, why? because the only thing it provides to the game is damage output, therefore it can be spammed and abused to increase the damage output(every turn).

In the abusive state of strenght nothing fun really happens; but in the abusive state of support fun things happens(until it was made completely useless).

The theoretical sustained damage output of strenght far surpasses/ negates any benefit support has.



< Message edited by Yo son -- 10/13/2014 3:19:35 >
Post #: 3
10/12/2014 23:11:28   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I think they should just make it so that sidearms deal flat damage which doesn't scale with anything, or scales with tech/dex.

I mean, what does strength do to increase the damage of your gun? Is pulling the trigger with more force gonna make the bullet hurt more?
Epic  Post #: 4
10/13/2014 1:21:00   
Gepard Acht
Member

Dex spam is already prominent and robot already scales with tech. Support on the other hand is already nerfed multiple times.
Im with this, this also nerfed str builds, which is always a good thing
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
10/13/2014 2:31:55   
FrostWolv
Member

^ above I do agree support has been nerfed multiple times

As for general discussion topic, here is my question no one bordered to ask!

But as the stat Support suggest to support player ... it does only in defense matrix, reflex boost, energy shield. Ironically you can have these skill help u, even if u have 17-18 support as a whole. How? just add more 3 point in these skills.

So next question is what else does support do? deflection? now deflection chance improves with tech.. Crit? crit rate and crit damage has been reduced many times in Delta Phase itself. First strike? its still a chance not 100% guarantee first strike if you have more support.

Is worth worth abusing? Not at all. But if you abuse any other stats then u will definitely get a build worth to play.

So if someone says stats are not to be abused .... then please check pvp ... apart from support every other stats are being abused.

Will other stat abuse stop? I dont think it will happen.

So why cant Devs make support atleast usable if not abuse-able ? Never know ...

What can be done to make support have a better use? Make Heal (which is a supporting skill) improve with support

What is happening in Omega if support is in this position? apart from 5-focus, rest of the builds have 17-18 support ... unless a skill is forced to have support requirement (Energy parasite)




_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 6
10/13/2014 10:42:27   
Mother1
Member

To be honest here the problem I am seeing is that support abuse in the eyes of the masses isn't worth it like it used to be, while abusing strength, dex, and tech is. Plus seeing as every build I encounter is abusing one or more of these stats, it makes support look worthless at higher levels.

To be honest support isn't weak it just can't be abused at high levels for massive results like the others can.

Support as it's name suggest is suppose to aid you in battle in different ways outside of the other three stats through RNG and status effects.
Epic  Post #: 7
10/13/2014 10:49:42   
Remorse
Member

I think they need to do a major overhaul to the energy flow of games.

So that dex spam mage builds aren't endlessly spamming these skills because with proper energy flow mages should have limited energy.

They should return class passives in a separate tree form so that broken skills like battery-back up can be removed.

Then lastly guns can then improve with dex, and feild medic can improve with support.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 10/13/2014 10:50:15 >
Epic  Post #: 8
10/13/2014 11:06:28   
FrostWolv
Member

Speaking in terms of diversity there were still support build for 2v2 before omega like support TM, support CH, support Merc, support TLM and even saw support BM (when Supercharge improved with dex ... and reflex boost gave energy return).

Now these wonderful builds doesnt exist coz of constant nerf of support, removal of passives and removal of enhancements.

Due to above factors and nerf in crit rate and crit chance ... support lost its value.

As a result other stats spams without no support is coming into play? One of the ways to remove these stat abuse it to buff support a way or two so that players might think support is worth investing.
Epic  Post #: 9
10/13/2014 11:10:57   
Mother1
Member

@ FrostWolv

I sometimes see support builds used at the lower levels where they work better, as well as a few of them in 1 vs 1 and maybe 2 vs 2, but I don't see them nearly as much as before.

@ Remorse

While I would love to see passives come back myself I remember the last passive suggestion thread being locked with a Quote from Nightwraith saying "Passives are never coming back." Or something along the lines of that.
Epic  Post #: 10
10/13/2014 11:24:05   
Remorse
Member

^ Yeh,

But I think that must of been referring to the specificness of old passives in the old skill tree, which is not what I'm suggesting.



Plus how can they say passives will never return WHEN THEY ARE STILL HERE... in the form of cores...


So apparently I could suggest a way to make class specific passive cores and that's fine because I used the word CORE...

But oh no, a separate passive tree, better lock that thread.

I'm sorry but the logic here is so flawed it pains me, it also pains me because I try so hard to help the game and then they do something silly like neglect the idea that perhaps the concept of class passives is NOT a bad thing.
Epic  Post #: 11
10/13/2014 11:33:01   
Gepard Acht
Member

^Sorry for being offtopic but can you can tell me why they removed passive in the first place? I stopped playing ED before that so I wouldnt know.

And if its because all classes always uses them, then isnt it the same with today's Energy stealing/gaining skills?
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
10/13/2014 11:37:07   
Mother1
Member

@ Gepard Acht

They removed passives because they were a must have for every build. Players had suggested removing passives for active skills since epic duel gamma because they thought removing them for active skills would increase diversity. Sadly that was a major bust.
Epic  Post #: 13
10/13/2014 11:39:26   
Remorse
Member

^
EXACTLY!

They were apparently a "must have" skill which is why they were removed,

But that hasn't changed at all, it merely has been swapped to the free costing (passives were also free) energy skills.


But to be honest if they could do it again, I think they shouldn't return the old system, they should have a separate passive tree so that this issue would exist at all!

Here is my thread for the separate passive skill tree if you want some sort of idea how it could work: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21799153&mpage=1&key=�


In terms of diversity, removing class passives to me is actually removing the class identity...

The passives gave them specific relate-able traits we knew that class to be, Mercs were naturally tanky etc..

I would actually go ahead and say that diversity has shrunken DRAMATICALLY, not only in terms of classes but builds and strategies as well.




< Message edited by Remorse -- 10/13/2014 11:44:02 >
Epic  Post #: 14
10/13/2014 11:56:41   
Ranloth
Banned


 NW has tweeted recently and made it clear: passives won't be coming back. Any suggestions regarding these will be ignored, because, well, they aren't coming back - whether people like it or not. Sorry guys, but we were told that just after they were removed, and few weeks ago too.

This means passive skill tree and old skill tree will NOT be making an appearance in ED.
AQ Epic  Post #: 15
10/13/2014 12:04:10   
Remorse
Member

^ Alright then,

Did they give any sort of reasoning?

at all?


Is their something specific that makes core passives okay but tree associated passives not?

Can I therefore merely suggest core passives that are Class unique?



How can you say passives won't be coming back when they are already in place????


I cannot comprehend the lack of logic.
Epic  Post #: 16
10/13/2014 12:16:33   
Ranloth
Banned


 Passives won't be returning for the same reason given in the past - must have skills that require no effort to use. Before you say new actives are the same - no, you spend a turn on them which may cost you the win, as opposed to being always active.

Also, I was talking about passive skills that classes had, not in general. It was clear, since I did mention passive skills and skill tree of its own.
AQ Epic  Post #: 17
10/13/2014 12:21:45   
Remorse
Member

^ So you spend a turn...how does that make them less of a "must have"?


The way I see it, is free costing skill appear as frequently and as high investment as the old passive skills did.


Also perhaps the word skill in passive skill tree, is wrong, let's change it to Passive Tree, without the skill part why? Because it's not skills and therefore it's not competing with skills, therefore it doesn't have the only minor issue that apparently justified it's removal in the first place.

Also I mentioned it has a single time investment which makes them on the same ground as passive cores.


Wanna know something silly?

I can make the EXACT same suggestion for class based passive cores and that's allowed, but word it differently with the same result and it's not...

< Message edited by Remorse -- 10/13/2014 12:23:14 >
Epic  Post #: 18
10/13/2014 12:59:29   
lionblades
Member

The active-passive skills are still a must have for pvp. It really didn't change much except make the the game much faster emphasis energy drains (parasite). I never see a BM without maxed parasite, BH/merc without max static...lol few things have changed for such a radical idea. And shadow arts and adrenaline is just lol. Deadly Aim was much more fun than parasite. Unable to play high energy because of so many parasites but oh well I can go 5f BM and own. Passives wasn't broke to begin with except maybe DA at endgame L35. Devs should have focused on new skills for the new classes. So many similar skills for the new classes that have been out for 2+ yrs. I come back every 2 weeks or so and no new skills or cores have been added. These new mass influx of weapons would have been great in Delta, but now there is not much point now that everything is the same.
AQW  Post #: 19
10/13/2014 13:05:43   
Remorse
Member

^ Agreed.
Epic  Post #: 20
10/14/2014 8:28:33   
RageSoul
Member

@ the Passive - Active topic :

If passives were must haves , why didn't they just rework them to be similar to the old Hybrid Armor ( you know , the "Armor Switch" ? ) but has certain conditions / costs ?


@ the main topic :

I heard one posting why , logically , and it's to reduce the "pushback force" done by guns , hence more accuracy = more force = more damage . But balance wise , nah .

< Message edited by RageSoul -- 10/14/2014 8:30:09 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
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