RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1


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2/27/2015 13:42:05

Yuttt
Member

I was wondering if bosses were supposed to use Mana Points to heal themselves. In a battle I am in, Hard Mode Lon in Howl at the Moon, I am wearing the Paladin Armor with a pet, guest dragon, and Artix. He has 18296 HP, and heals over 1k HP almost every turn. I cannot outdamage his heals and he uses no MP to heal himself. Is this intended (should I just give up taking on hard mode bosses with defensive classes)?

< Message edited by Yuttt -- 2/27/2015 13:45:25 >

Post #: 326

2/27/2015 13:46:08

Ash
Member

Some do and some don't. If it's thematic enough for the monster to be able to heal without mana, like a faster metabolism from being a Werewolf or a Vampire drinking blood to heal, they won't.

AQW

Post #: 327

2/27/2015 13:54:13

Wulf Gar
Member

Logged on my char...saw my mana took a nosedive....then i rejoiced because my ChronoCorrupter is actually good for farming over my doomKnight class Best stat update ever,
Even after the Wis nerf with all my items i still have 1095 mp with chronocorruptor and i never had problems before i changed my build to have Wis using it so i don't think il have problems now, doomknight il need to actually be selective on which skill i use now not just spam click spikes to kill everything, Great work Ash and the whole DF team this was seriously my fave update since the tomix finale.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 328

2/27/2015 14:09:25

admahu
Member

I don't see how STR/DEX/INT could really ever pull ahead of LUK. The items thing doesn't make sense to me since the LUK players can/will just use the big STR/DEX/INT items, not low LUK items. And considering items will be giving a lot of STR/DEX/INT but little LUK, there's hardly a reason to put your stat points in the former.

Looking at 88 average weapon damage and 39 crit%, with no other item stats

with 200 STR: (88*2+20)*(20*0.39) + (88+20)*[20-(20*0.39)] = 2846.4 damage over 20 turns

with 200 LUK: (88*2+10)*(20*0.49) + (88+10)*[20-(20*0.49)] = 2822.4 damage over 20 turns

Adding in 120 STR/DEX/INT to both builds from items (I have 71 now, so it may be high but not a stretch) and 0 LUK from items

with 200 STR: (88*2+32)*(20*0.39) + (88+32)*[20-(20*0.39)] = 3086.4 damage over 20 turns

with 200 LUK: (88*2+22)*(20*0.49) + (88+22)*[20-(20*0.49)] = 3062.4 damage over 20 turns

In both cases LUK only loses out by less than 1%, a wimpy 24 damage over 20 turns. The accuracy alone will no doubt make up for that, then blocking on top.

edit: typo

< Message edited by admahu -- 2/27/2015 14:17:55 >

Post #: 329

2/27/2015 14:38:37

Ash
Member

So basically you just proved my point that an "annihilator" style build will be viable in terms of pure DPS. Now would you like to rerun those numbers taking into consideration a normal player who would be putting End and Wis into their build so they can use classes outside of the base class? Your numbers might reflect something different. ;P

At level 80 the "normal" build is, 200 (Str/Dex/Int), 100 End, 95 (wis) It'll shuffle around more but that'll work for most classes.

The Luk build you mentioned, if you totally flop to Luk instead of a damage stat, will over time do less AND punish you for not having a damage stat primarily through the RNG cutting through your Defense and Bonus. +10 Bonus and +10 defense is countered, on average, 82% of the time. 200 Str + 150 from items compared against the 200 Luk + 150 damage stat from items gives a 35 to 25. This coupled with the fact that most classes now require more Crit to make that "average" crit rate you're using actually happen, which now isn't going to be provided for on gear, means that the more basic damage buff will provide more consistent damage rather than more spike damage. This also coupled with the fact that bosses are, on average, going to have more health and more damage that will further skew the numbers to you wanting more direct damage. Remember, on paper numbers work out really well, if you actually use things in game with the RNG acting against you it turns that into a totally different story.

That's the point that I was trying to make. If you just take the pure damage, I want to smack things in the FACE builds they'll do that. If you want to actually have any chance to use your classes and live through longer quests, the normal balanced builds will still do appropriate damage. If you want to be an annihilator you should totally go for it, but just remember that you DID go for that when something like When or Akriloth eats your face because you had no End and you ran out of mana.

< Message edited by Ash -- 2/27/2015 14:50:49 >

AQW

Post #: 330

2/27/2015 14:52:50

The_element
Member

@Ash- Will Kathool Adept's Brain drain be increased (or scaled)? If it is increased/scaled, will it be increased to something like 10% mp regen with 10 turn cooldown?

Anyway, I'm pretty satisfied by how this has turned out, crit is no longer the be-all-end-all, LUK now actually matters and parry/dodge/block have actually become useful. The decrease in mp seems a bit harsh, but it probably needed to happen to balance those powerhouse classes with high mp costs. I've changed my stats to be pretty tanky right now- testing 200 END, 100 LUK and 95 WIS.

Btw, has anybody changed to a more DOT based strategy?

< Message edited by The_element -- 2/27/2015 15:21:22 >

Post #: 331

2/27/2015 15:41:57

ProstheticFate
Member

Glad to know that the trinket bug is fixed. Because no way a trinket was intended to give a damage increase.

Post #: 332

2/27/2015 19:49:27

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@admahu - Err, why aren't you doubling stat damage on your crits? As should be obvious from my last few posts, I still agree completely with what you're saying - that Luk is superior to Str/Dex/Int as a character stat and about the only reason to take Str/Dex/Int is if you've already got your Luk maxed - but doubling stat damage on crits (because it is doubled by them) makes the difference between them closer to 3%.

@Ash - While what you're saying is true - that the RNG will play a larger role and you can be screwed over by it with all of Luk's effects - it's also possible to be blessed by the RNG and do way better than a "normal" build using Str/Dex/Int, and in the long run the damage will average out to be pretty much the same. Now, I'm not 100% sure how the defense from Luk works, but if it's effectively worth an equivalent amount of M/P/M, then 10 more is a huge amount; it's almost a 20% increase to what my level 80 character normally has, without shields.

And I'm afraid I don't understand how the +10 Bonus and defense could be countered 82% of the time... Do you mean enemies that have a Bonus more than 10 higher than a player's expected defenses, and defenses that make them unhittable? Those things clearly aren't going to happen 82% of the time but they're the only way a normal +10 M/P/M and +10 Bonus, respectively, would be countered (i.e., rendered pointless, not beneficial), so is there something I'm missing about how those stats from Luk work that makes them less useful than their non-Luk counterparts?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 333

2/27/2015 19:57:26

Ash
Member

He's not because it SHOULDN'T be doubled anymore. The stat damage should be taken after the crit roll unless something's not working right which I'll then need to fix. That's part of the limiting factor on crits to not go bonkers anymore.

With the way the game rolls for checks it's more random and less "assured" at any point unless you're using a "guaranteed" skill. An 80 Bonus score can, and sometimes will, cause you to miss against a far lower M/P/M score. It's the nature of how the RNG works. Unless you're budding up to near auto miss/auto hit numbers you'll have a lesser chance to succeed for the most part. The Luk parts work exactly like Bonus and M/P/M type defenses it's just that there's no sure way to make them work 100% of the time perfectly in the math sense. The 82% came from me testing those two over and over and over and over for the better part of a day to make sure all the numbers and coding was working and how it averaged out over something like 20,000 or more individual hits.

AQW

Post #: 334

2/27/2015 20:12:31

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

Ah, well the crit damage I'm doing is still exactly 200% of the normal damage I'm doing, so it would appear stat damage is still being doubled. So the numbers I've been posting have actually been very sightly skewed in Str/Dex/Int's favor, as stat damage not benefiting from crits devalues it further... I wonder what the correct values would be; with how low the difference was getting in some situations even with that skew, it may be that Luk could actually be slightly superior for average damage at times once it's fixed, but I'm too lazy to redo all the math right now. D:

And I'm afraid I still don't understand exactly what you mean; are you saying that the stats from Luk won't work 82% of the time, or that +10 Bonus or M/P/M from any source won't have an effect 82% of the time (though that would depend on the base amount, wouldn't it?), or something else?

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 2/27/2015 20:14:44 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 335

2/27/2015 20:15:47

Dimguye360
Member

*goes back to fight Seppy to see if he got hit by the stat nerf too* *notices his mana took a heavier hit then anyone* Moment of silence for poor Seppy, the Wisdom nerf hurt him more than anyone else.

AQW

Post #: 336

2/27/2015 20:44:36

Dracojan
Member

wait what? bonus dmg wont be critting anymore? that doesnt sound right. i hope we just understood you incorrectly.

DF	Post #: 337

2/27/2015 21:12:20

Ash
Member

quote:

Ah, well the crit damage I'm doing is still exactly 200% of the normal damage I'm doing, so it would appear stat damage is still being doubled. So the numbers I've been posting have actually been very sightly skewed in Str/Dex/Int's favor, as stat damage not benefiting from crits devalues it further... I wonder what the correct values would be; with how low the difference was getting in some situations even with that skew, it may be that Luk could actually be slightly superior for average damage at times once it's fixed, but I'm too lazy to redo all the math right now. D:

It was coming out to being slightly better when I originally did the numbers for it in favor of Str/Dex/Int so that it would pull ahead, as intended, mainly because of the impression that I knew you all would get. I may not adjust it but I have to rerun everything over the weekend and figure out for sure. That's the problem with math focused people, you all pick everything apart to find any small benefit. It really isn't "better" in terms of actual in game performance, but on paper it looks better because paper is perfect. :P That's why I went in game and tested all of this, over and over and over to make sure it was coming out how it needed to. In game Str/Dex/Int focused builds consistently did more damage than Luk focused. It wasn't more by leaps and bounds, but it was a large enough margin that kept getting larger the more of Str/Dex/Int you fed into it. I know the math doesn't show that but in actual game conditions it came out that way.

quote:

And I'm afraid I still don't understand exactly what you mean; are you saying that the stats from Luk won't work 82% of the time, or that +10 Bonus or M/P/M from any source won't have an effect 82% of the time (though that would depend on the base amount, wouldn't it?), or something else?

No, what I'm saying is that over those insane number of single hits I had to do I missed more than math told me I should and hit more than math told me I should in situations where math was telling me I SHOULDN'T hit or SHOULDN'T miss.

AQW

Post #: 338

2/27/2015 21:13:41

Karika
Member

Bonus damage from STR, DEX, INT, and LUK (and only from stats, weapon damage is as before) is added to damage after determining if the hit is a crit or not. A crit from a 80-80 Melee weapon on a character with 200 STR deals (80*2)+20 = 180 damage, whereas pre-14.0 it would have been (80+23)*2 = 206 damage.

< Message edited by Karika -- 2/27/2015 21:14:26 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 339

2/27/2015 21:53:52

Dracojan
Member

^nope, we are doing (weapon dmg+bonus dmg<str>+bonus dmg<luk>)*2. ive tested it with a 70+20+10 dmg and my normal hits are 100, my crits are 200.

well, here are some builds and my logic behind them.
annihilator - 200str/dex/int and 195luk. max dmg and crit chance. best used with offensive classes and equipment. kill the enemy fast and try to survive for that time
offensive tank - 200end 195str/dex/int. high health and high dmg for hybrid classes that can heal. can survive long, heal and sustain itself for even longer. balanced equipment.
defensive tank - 200end 195luk. high health, high evasion and a little bit of all of the offensive stats (gets you close to the dmg of the offensive tank at high lvls but its still lower). best used with defensive classes and equipment.
beastmaster tank - 200cha 195end. a lot like an offensive tank where you can survive for long but in this case your pets and guests deliver the bonus dmg. for the offensive tank you can do 20 bonus dmg that can be increased by the skill modifier and further increased by crit. with the beastmaster build you let each guest and your pet deliver the bonus dmg effectively doing 3x that bonus.
annihilator and offensive tanks are best with classes that have strong skills like dmk, kathool adept, riftwalker
offensive tank can be used with classes like death knight
defensive tank can be used with classes like dl, paladin, necro
beastmaster can be used with classes like dl, paladin, necro when you play with pets and guests.

ive not included any wis since i dont really have any mana problems but i know some ppl use the 200end 195wis build to have max sustainability. this and other interesting builds:
max balanced resources - 200end 195wis
annihilator beastmaster - 200str/dex/int 195cha
offensive balanced resources - 200str/dex/int 100end 95wis
lucky balanced resources - 200luk 100end 95wis
full balance - 80str/dex/int 80end 80wis 80cha 75luk

< Message edited by Dracojan -- 2/27/2015 21:57:11 >

DF	Post #: 340

2/27/2015 22:05:38

Snakezarr
Member

@Dracojan You need to add WIS to all of those except maybe beastmaster, otherwise you have 500-750 mp at lv. 80 which doesn't last very long at all. Ah I didn't realize you use the base class as your normal armor correct? That would make sense as the base class doesn't use much mp.

< Message edited by Snakezarr -- 2/27/2015 22:12:42 >

Post #: 341

2/27/2015 22:11:32

Zeldax
Member

quote:

Though how about the Feed/Train Dragon interface in the Dragonlord House? (The one with your adult dragon in one of the rooms) The interface there isn't updated. It still shows that the max is 500, and the buttons are still the old ones.

Post #: 342

2/27/2015 22:14:30

Ash
Member

That's a manual update that will happen when I get time to update it. It's known but I need free time to fix things like that and the rest of the temp pets and a host of other tiny things.

AQW

Post #: 343

2/27/2015 22:18:36

Zeldax
Member

Alright then. I'll just use the Dragon Amulet interface for now

Post #: 344

2/27/2015 22:23:57

Dracojan
Member

quote:

Ah I didn't realize you use the base class as your normal armor correct? That would make sense as the base class doesn't use much mp.

no, not really. right now dk seems to be one of the more mana hungry classes and my mana is still enough to pass the latest quests without using potions. other classes that consume more mana also deal more dmg so they actually go through it all with more mana left. kathool adept for example.

btw ive got 0+~55/~60 on my wis

< Message edited by Dracojan -- 2/27/2015 22:27:11 >

DF	Post #: 345

2/27/2015 23:18:40

ProstheticFate
Member

After a lot of experimenting with stats, I've finally made a build that I'm satisfied for now for my death knight.
INT: 200 +57
END: 55 +67
LUK: 100 +21
WIS: 40 +61

Post #: 346

2/28/2015 0:50:05

Oliver Bell
AK in Limbo!

Oh great, looks like it is time to actually work out a build, hopefully all the guides will soon be up to date for this. I got frustrated with build design back when I played EpicDuel, enough to last me a lifetime, so this will likely get put off for a bit; I hope badly placed stats won't be too crippling.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 347

2/28/2015 4:27:47

damon10371
Member

does the warrior class change also effect the shadow warrior class?

_____________________________

AQW

Post #: 348

2/28/2015 4:40:55

Cub34
Member

"There's a plan to help with the exp farming grind as well. Still finalizing numbers for it though. "Can you offer any more details on this?I'm almost out of quests to do and tired of killing the cola machine for xp.

AQ	Post #: 349

2/28/2015 14:37:46

admahu
Member

Noticed you can hit tab to go from username to password on log in. I think that's new, might be my favorite part of the update.

Post #: 350

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