RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1


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7/29/2015 7:59:15

Mystical Warrior
Helpful!

Crit being a mainstream stat before the stat changes was indeed rampant, I myself was enjoying and have the mindset of "wow this item has high crit, imma use this instead", with the nerf on crit, I now actually have more freedom in choosing my equips whether be it for looks/power unlike before where I am forced to wear a cape/helm/weapon because it has high crit stat even though I hate its theme, and to be honest, the game is alot more fun for me now, since I'm not curbstomping everything anymore as Ash puts it.

AQW

Post #: 626

7/29/2015 8:04:53

Aura Knight
Member

If you depend too much on crits to win battles, maybe you're just not that good at the game. Most players can survive without requiring crit hits because they know how to properly use their classes to their advantage.

AQW

Post #: 627

7/29/2015 8:05:50

Shadows Morgenstern
Member

@Mystical Warrior: Totally agree with that dude, it makes choosing equips way more flexible.

@Aura: CRITS FIRED. =P

< Message edited by Shadows Morgenstern -- 7/29/2015 8:06:24 >

DF	Post #: 628

7/29/2015 8:31:49

Mystical Warrior
Helpful!

@Aura Knight I don't know if you were active during those times were Crit is the only stat that matters, if you were, I think you will also have the same point of view, that being the norm was why I went inactive in DF because I was restricted to only use certain equipment combinations because Crit pretty much trumps every stat.

Not to mention even with an outdated class, because you Crit almost all the time, it doesn't matter, heck I was using the outdated Guardian class and just used a Crit heavy setup, I can easily defeat bosses even their extreme mode, which shouldn't be the case then, which kinda proved that Crit is OP before, so I doubt that I fall under those category that don't know how to use the class, since I can use an outdated class against extreme boss battles back then.

< Message edited by Mystical Warrior -- 7/29/2015 8:33:10 >

AQW

Post #: 629

7/29/2015 8:57:17

Mordred
Member

quote:

The Crit change doesn't matter because ultimately, it just shifts damage around. A high level, high Crit build will only lose about 3.5% damage if they invest in LUK on top of STR/INT/DEX to compensate for the reduced Crit. *

Patently false. Before the change, players were sitting with ~70-75 Crit, which translated directly into a 70-75% constant damage boost. Now, that's hard-capped at 50, even with LUK giving you +10 crit on top of gear. That's ~12% less damage (1.5/1.7=0.882...), and getting that kind of optimal crit requires gimping yourself in other ways. STR/DEX/INT doesn't compensate for this kind of change. If you were going for damage before this change, you had STR/DEX/INT maxed out before anyways. Those damage stats are more simplified now, and yes, buffed, but not to the degree you're suggesting.

Post #: 630

7/29/2015 11:17:02

Delgadoss
Member

Whoops! it's not a 3.5% damage loss, I switched the digits: I meant 5.3% for the character stats I picked.

This percentage increases as the damage doubled by Crit increases, so with your more impressive stat sample, the loss in damage is indeed a little higher but not that much.

For a level 80 character with 250 STR, 25 LUK, 71 Crit and a 90 damage weapon, average damage not accounting for accuracy used to be 200.41. Approximated formula: (90+27)*(1+0.71)

The same character with 250 STR, 220 LUK and 38 Crit deals, today, an average of 186.88 damage. Approximated formula: (90+25+11)*(1+0.38+0.11)

That's a 6% damage loss for the same equipment, with a 195 LUK investment. It's noticeable but scales back as we get a lot more item STR (if we do)

Post #: 631

7/29/2015 17:01:39

Baron Dante
Member

I think there's a few fresh things left to be said about the Crit and other changes, but anyways.

While I definitely don't disagree with the nerf to Crit in any way, I never felt like it was the only stat that mattered. I know that's kind of an unpopular opinion. In a way, M/P/M and All resist were close, if not equal to Crit. I feel the notion that Crit is too good led to an increase in defensive stats in equipment. (at least ones that lacked the Crit) It kind of ended up leading to these defensive equipment being better. Most people just didn't roll with it because it's not as visible in effectiveness. And, well. Defensive playstyle wasn't really something most people would go for because BOOM BIG NUMBERS was just... faster I guess.

With Version 14, I'm looking forward to getting my personal listamajig properly done to see the huge change the nerf of Crit did. Because I don't think defensive stats were particularly nerfed, some of the previously high/top-tier equipment are now merely averagish, while others are more ridiculous than ever.
Even with that in mind, there will still be a decent chunk of people that will go for the offensive Crit route, but eh.

The other thing I want to point out. Bit of a personal story here, but over the last few years...ish, stuff happened, and I was sort of slipping with keeping up the AE games in general, par DF, which even that was sort of something I kept clinging to because it's been such a huge part of life since like, '07.
By a coincidence, a friend of mine popped up with DF (This coincided really well with V14 coming out), and I kind of ended playing the whole game through with a fresh character with her watching. We had a huge blast with it. For the first time in years, I really, really enjoyed actually battling through things. I'm not the kind of person that likes to grind, so I didn't. Instead, we devised some cool strategies to get past the tougher quests.

That kinda lit a fire under me. DF as it is now, isn't just a weekly chore to go through for me (Not to say I didn't enjoy the story, but I feel some appreciation for it was lost, even if it was almost the only thing that interested me during those dark times). I think that's in large part thanks to the updates Engine 14+ brought to the table.

Ash and everyone else involved with it are pretty cool guys and gals.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 632

7/31/2015 16:54:49

Branl
Member

quote:

Frankly the Crit nerf made this game fun again for me, I got no joy out of being able to kill things in 1 attack on hard mode with Riftwalker, the old crit system was fine for a long time, but once lvl 60-70-80 rolled around it became absurdly easy to kill anything with the ever increasing amounts of Crit equipment gave, while also sucking any enjoyment I had from the game right out.

Seriously...whats the point of a boss fight if you can kill the boss in 1 attack, now though even off of hard mode some of the newer bosses provide a very fun challenge, and I have to say the stat changes made DF my fave AE game again.

I'm not a huge fan of hard mode.
While the enemies are very dangerous, I don't like how sporatic the RNG is on there. Enemies can hit through 180+ defensive skills like 70% of the time, even with a lot of bonus and 200 luck, I still manage to miss like 30-40% of the time, and even applying stun is a challenge because the RNG skewers the results in the enemy's favor.
Unreliable Stun and Defensive skills is a good way to make certain classes impossible to do hard mode with.

Example: Killguin Arena
At one point, you reach a 3 enemy mob, each sporting something like 300-400 damage and 1.2k HP. Oh, and they can also hit twice half the time.
Riftwalker can kill these guys in one hit, provided enough Crit occurs, but that's generally very unreliable. It gets bad because beforehand, you faced a two enemy mob with the same stats.
With enemies go through defensive skills like they aren't there, or you miss both hits of your stun, or you hit and they don't take effect, it makes battles like that impossible.

Hard Mode Frydae, in addition to hitting through defensive skills and forcing missing a lot, heals HP on misses and he uses this attack often. While I beat Extreme Hard Mode Frydae, I don't think healing HP with a missed blood drain attack makes sense or is even remotely fair.

Hard Mode Mummidragon is completely impossible to hit.

Although that's off topic.
I think the changes were more or less generally positive. I still feel Charisma is a horrible stat because your damage modifiers are much higher than a pets and pets have horrible accuracy.
And Guests are too weak and vulnerable to getting hit due to weak defensive skills to warrant the huge increase in HP monsters get as a result.

< Message edited by Branl -- 7/31/2015 16:57:38 >

Post #: 633

7/31/2015 21:17:58

Ash
Member

Hard mode should really be taken with a grain of salt. It has a flat 10% chance to just straight up cause your attacks to miss which is just the tip of what kinds of broken things it can lead to.

Pets are getting a flat Bonus to Hit upgrade when I finally get the item stats update done. (It's coming..I just keep getting things like MP Potion training that take higher priority and stuff like "Ash we need that DC package weapon done!" stuff that keeps coming up.) Once that's done Pet accuracy shouldn't really be as hit and miss as it is now in most cases.

Guest HP scaling was already reduced with 14.0 so it doesn't have as high of a bonus to enemy HP anymore. Also define "weak" please because most guests now have proper shields and overall better skills as I've redone most of them. There are still some that need to be redone, like Zhoom, but for the most part they are all useful now.

AQW

Post #: 634

7/31/2015 21:20:33

PusatShrade
Member

Kind of off topic, but is the sound effect for the element "Evil" ever going to get modified into something more.... Evil? I mean, it having the same sound as nature or metal kinda is demeaning in my opinion.

AQW

Post #: 635

7/31/2015 21:21:21

Ash
Member

That really depends on where it's hidden in the engine and if it's going to be a pain to fix.

AQW

Post #: 636

7/31/2015 21:46:43

Drop_Bear
Member

@Branl, In Comparison I am a fan of hard mode. That doesn't mean I use it for every class as your right that some classes just aren't made such that hard mode is viable. Riftwalker being an example.

Doing Quests in Hard Mode requires being able to defend effectively, kill quickly and be able to regenerate enough hp and mana to be able to face the next mob. Effectively a class has to balance all three capabilities. Riftwalker lacks the defence and regeneration giving it large problems. Dragonlord for example has both defence and regeneration so does much better but is still a bit slow as once you've done your best damage rotation the enemy is usually only half dead and your best moves on cooldown.

This means that hardmode stretches how much you can stick into a class and then finally get out of it, especially as you have to count on getting as many misses as you do crits. As someone who plays this game specifically for fiddling with the classes hard mode makes for a good testing ground for some of the more balanced classes.

Probably my favourite hard mode class is Ascendant. By using a trinket as well, you can achieve "ok" regeneration with solid defence and amazing damage. I find with Ascendant that normal mobs simply have too little hp to use the class properly as it shines when you take an extra couple of moves to massively nuke the critter. On hard mode even mobs have enough hp and the quirks with things hitting through shields/blinds and resisting the odd stun they shouldn't spices things up so it isnt simply "defend > setup >nuke" but you get the occasional "defend > oh wait I need to heal" and you have to think on your feat adapting to the set back.

Post #: 637

7/31/2015 23:00:25

Branl
Member

quote:

Hard mode should really be taken with a grain of salt. It has a flat 10% chance to just straight up cause your attacks to miss which is just the tip of what kinds of broken things it can lead to.

Pets are getting a flat Bonus to Hit upgrade when I finally get the item stats update done. (It's coming..I just keep getting things like MP Potion training that take higher priority and stuff like "Ash we need that DC package weapon done!" stuff that keeps coming up.) Once that's done Pet accuracy shouldn't really be as hit and miss as it is now in most cases.

Guest HP scaling was already reduced with 14.0 so it doesn't have as high of a bonus to enemy HP anymore. Also define "weak" please because most guests now have proper shields and overall better skills as I've redone most of them. There are still some that need to be redone, like Zhoom, but for the most part they are all useful now.

Take Book 3 Ash for instance. His Shield is 40+ to Block, Parry, and Dodge. This is fine as a full party shield, not so much when it comes to defending himself. It is immensely useful for the player because on top the the Block/Dodge/Parry they get from their equipment, but Guests don't have that either. Ash's Defend skill on it's own is pathetic and rarely does anything in the way of protecting him. I mean, his defend skill bonuses is what I get just by wearing my gear.

And yeah, the defend skill is very useful for you, but that's only if the enemy actually targets you. This neuters your own defensive skills too, because enemies can always just attack your guests. This is dangerous especially on hard mode because while defensive skills are unreliable there, they're more helpful than having little to nothing in the way of defense. And Guests can't be healed without being re-invited or using up potions, to make this worse.

Meanwhile solo, defensive skills are guaranteed to be in effect because enemies have to target you solo. Your DPS can't be destroyed by enemies favoring attacking your allies, which usually have very pathetic defensive skills for themselves (Assuming you're using a Beastmaster build) and almost no bonus, so their damage gets more and more unreliable as you level up. Your DPS is only neutered when your character faints, and your DPS is more reliable and consistant than the DPS of your allies.

In bulletpoint form:
1) Allies have low innate bonus to hit, making their damage unreliable.
2) Allies typically have inferior % damage on their skills to you, with the exception of one very powerful skill that is on par with your more damaging skills. It makes investing into their damage... questionable.
3) Allies have little in the way of defending themselves and they draw aggro from you. This gives enemies a way around your defensive skills and straight to destroying your dps, due to allies having zero innate defenses and their defend skills being party based (and thus has to be weak to compensate).

Thanks for the heads up on hard mode though, I wonder if adjustments could be made to make it less random. That would be very nice. I love hard mode, but the RNG shenanigans is kind of ridiculous at times.

Post #: 638

7/31/2015 23:32:44

Ash
Member

Here's the thing with guests though, they aren't meant to supercharge you. They aren't meant to be meat shields which is how some people treat them. You're looking at it from the "Ash needs to be able to give he and I a massive shield". What are his other skills? What do other guests with similar skills give your character? Guests are meant to be a supplement which enhances your characters power, not make you into an unbeatable juggernaut.

This is the same type of "issue" I keep having people bring up because they're used to how party members work in other games. This isn't FF or Mass Effect. The ability to customize and adjust guests to fit your playstyle isn't possible. They're meant to supplement with additional damage and effects. Ash and Artix and Aegis and all the others do that. The cost of that is a slightly scaled up amount of Health and Mana. If you look at it from the point of view of how they're intended and not the point of view of how you're trying to that'll fix a majority of the issues you're coming up with.

The issue with guests not being able to be healed is one I'm trying to work on for 14.1 for all current heal buttons. So that one right away can just be scratched off. I'm also looking at making it so that if a guest is "down" at 0 health they don't revive every fight and the enemy ignores them in terms of a power buff. So that's one more scratched off the list.

As for your bullet points.

1. Some of the older summon spots, like Falconreach are still giving guests with 1 and 10 bonus. If you look at guests like Mritha or Niki or Mazurek those are using the right values. Not all guests have that low BtH and the ones that do are getting fixed as I have time to get to them.
2. Damage is tied to the type of skill. Rolith's skills, for example, do a bunch of damage. What guests are you actually looking at to make that type of judgement because it's not all of them.
3. Not all guests have party based defenses so that argument as a whole is false because it doesn't cover every guest. Go do some checking of the updated guests. Second though is if you're DPT (since this a turn based game) is that reliant on a Guest there's another issue entirely. Guests are a supplement, they shouldn't be providing you with 60% of your damage. They fall into the same category as a pet in that they are meant to give you a boost in damage larger than a pet but not one that makes things into no challenge at all.

The RNG shenanigans is intended in Hard mode. It's hard mode, it's meant to be stupid at points because that's how Rolith designed it. People keep complaining that there's nothing hard in the game so he gave you a mode that's unfair at points to make it hard. That part isn't changing mainly because there's no way besides the large scaling and patently unfair BtH nerf to make a challenge that people won't complain about. It has to be unfair to be hard with players.

< Message edited by Ash -- 7/31/2015 23:36:18 >

AQW

Post #: 639

8/1/2015 3:25:47

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Branl - As Ash said, you seem to be looking at guests as equal party members, but all they need to do to be worth it is increase your damage by the same percentage that they increase enemy health (seems like about 50% for one?). Some are better than others of course, but the good ones definitely do that and more. Add to that that you can have 2 of them and a pet, and Cha can be way better than Str/Dex/Int/Luk as a damage stat.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 640

8/1/2015 3:30:54

Mystical Warrior
Helpful!

@Sakurai I would like to agree on Cha being better than Str/Dex/Int, but only in one instance, and that is when you are using 2 Guests and a Pet. Since Cha affects 3 damage sources unlike Str/Dex/Int which only affects one damage source which is your own.

AQW

Post #: 641

8/1/2015 7:38:20

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

Isn't that what I said? o.o "Add to that that you can have 2 of them and a pet, and Cha can be way better..."

AQW

Epic

Post #: 642

8/1/2015 11:00:29

Skyflakes
Member

About Kathool Adept

I think the mana drain of it is too little. Um maybe perhaps increasing a little of the amount drained makes it better (almost useless when out of mana).
Also, I can feel that when I use the skill Corrupt then Mind Twist, the damage of Mind Twist weakens.

I like this armor; unique skills, good evasions and cool walking animation. Some disturbance also is it makes you go back to the place you stand when you enter some rooms.

Post #: 643

8/1/2015 11:14:11

Ash
Member

First things first, going to put on my Mod hat. This isn't the catch all for every complaint you have about things.

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21854944 <---- This lists out a lot of threads. There's class threads in there. If you have a question or issue with a class, post it in the specific class thread. If it's a general issue that has a thread as well. Please search first and pick the appropriate threads from now on. This is supposed to be about 14.0 engine changes, not classes, not lore questions, not "I'm having trouble with X quest".

Now, as for this question because it's here I'll swap to my Dev hat.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: I already buffed the drain as much as possible because of the overall power of the armor. It's running off the same concept as Doomknight, lots of damage but really high mana costs and no direct way to fix that without potions. Kathool deals around 182% damage on all of its skills baseline at level 80. That means that when you see a skill say "deals 100% damage" it doesn't mean 100% weapon damage. It means it's dealing 100% of the SCALED damage so every skill is going to be dealing above 100% weapon damage baseline. Those skills that deal more damage that the 100% scaled damage deal *x amount of that amount. That means that a 120% damage skill on Kathool will deal (Base damage) * 1.2. What does that mean? It means you're dealing above 200% damage on a lot of skills, and really the only mitigating factor of it is that it's element locked on a bunch of things. That doesn't matter for the most part unless you're doing a water quest and we don't do those often.

It is doing lowered damage on Mind Twist because the coding is reversed for some reason and no one reported it for me to go look. That's on my list of things to get fixed on Monday.

I rolled a fix to the size of the placement and collision detection area on the armor a bit ago. Have you tried using it since that fix? I ran it through a bunch of quests where it used to get stuck and it no longer does now.

AQW

Post #: 644

8/1/2015 11:30:29

Skyflakes
Member

@Ash
Sorry for posting in the wrong thread and I must continue this last of my thought.

First of all, I have seen now that it does not jump you back to area you stand when entering (I have tried it to Atrea classes). I appreciate your help on fixing the Mind Twist code and switching your hats

. I now understand that skills of it are balanced from becoming over powered.

One last question and I'll be out of this :D. Will the special effects like Necrotic Sword Of Doom's Portal be permanently unavailable to monster armor like this and enTropy? Is it bug for it or just natural?
Thanks in advance for your answer.

< Message edited by Skyflakes -- 8/1/2015 11:45:41 >

Post #: 645

8/1/2015 13:11:57

Melissa4Bella
AmeSylph

I'm going to reiterate Ash's statement, because it seems that some are not wanting to pay attention and use this thread for purposes other than what it is intended for.

quote:

First things first, going to put on my Mod hat. This isn't the catch all for every complaint you have about things.

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21854944 <---- This lists out a lot of threads. There's class threads in there. If you have a question or issue with a class, post it in the specific class thread. If it's a general issue that has a thread as well. Please search first and pick the appropriate threads from now on. This is supposed to be about 14.0 engine changes, not classes, not lore questions, not "I'm having trouble with X quest".

From this point on, any posts that do not pertain to the 14.0.1 engine update (for example: general questions best asked in the DF Q&A forum) will be automatically deleted without notice. We don't like to delete posts in that manner but it's become habitual to completely disregard good advice in this and other threads, so appropriate action will be taken from now on. Thanks for understanding!

Post #: 646

8/1/2015 13:30:44

Skullkyopi
Member

After starting new characters and inviting a friend to play the game, I came to some things I want to point out.

It seems the new changes make it kinda hard for newbies to get started. The lowered mp really hurts, and it seems like a lot of monsters hit you for about 5-10% of your total hp, thats for single enemies nevermind the triple fights.

Does anybody remember those quesrs that ash in falconreach give? The one with specific levels beside them? I think the difficulty of it now doesn't really justify the rewards. In the previous version of the game, sure, but not so much now. That goes also for the various items yulgar and serenity sell that isn't the player suggestion shop pretty much any quest made back when the game was just starting like robina and warlic's area.

Look, I'm all for all the recent changes Ash has been doing to the game and they are incredible for sure but I just feel that it's left new players with a lot to be desired. I mean if I wasn't an old player, frequented the forums and know about the gold spot at nythera, I'd think the prices on the equipment seems a tad high and the game a bit confusing.

I don't know, this might just be complaining for me and for my friend but I hope the staff has been thinking about this also.

Post #: 647

9/4/2015 20:02:37

admahu
Member

With complaints about the WIS nerf, I have to ask. Was the MP cost for skills increased after the release of the WIS stat? Or is everyone just spoiled now and don't remember that MP used to be tied to INT and warriors and rogues didn't get huge gains.... and the game was still fine? More specifically for KA and DmK, which came out before WIS. (KA definitely, idk about DmK)

Post #: 648

9/5/2015 1:08:02

Shadows Morgenstern
Member

@admahu: Yup, people were spoiled.

DF	Post #: 649

9/5/2015 9:50:13

Brasca123
Member

@admahu. you are looking at this at the wrong perspective actually

what people said at the beginning of this thread could be defined as being spoiled, sure, but that's not what skullkyopi was arguing about, what he did say, was that the WIS nerf can get in the way of the new players as they are not into the game don't know which items are best nor what stats they should be increasing, he also raised the point about gold price of items, damage of low level monsters and usefulness of quest rewards

i'll put my own perspective on these points:

1) i have to disagree with the WIS nerf thing, mainly because, if i was a new player, i would never put points in WIS, i would just put all in STR or whatever the dmg stat of my class is, besides, tier 1 classes (which you are supposed to use at early levels) have really small mana costs, so i don't think it's an issue

2) i'll be honest that i have no idea if the price of items is high or low because i just farm at catapults at any war, so i'm pretty rich and i think we need a big 1kk weapon or something like it because i don't have anything to spend money on, that said... have you introduced your friend to ballyhoo? it's the best farming spot in the game IMO, the gold given is pretty good, it's pretty quick, you can just switch tabs during the ad and it can even give DC

3) as for the quests for low levels... i don't really think they are too hard, most of those quests have a healing pad available, so HP/MP is not a worry, and the potions are usually good enough to cover the dmg of the enemies

4) lastly, the quest rewards from book 1 ash are kinda outdated, so i don't think it's worth doing those quests at all... that said, one might wonder if that shouldn't actually be changed when the staff has time, since you're at the beginning of the game, one of the first quest givers outside of oaklore is ash, getting bad rewards because standards changed when you are just starting to suddenly find an up to date quest that smashes you can be quite bad (note that i'm not sure if this actually happens, i'm judging without going out with a low level to confirm my points, so i could be completely wrong here)

that's my opinion on this at least

Post #: 650

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