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Some balance problems on last update

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5/10/2015 14:35:34   
Stonehawk
Member

Well, this topic is to show some problems, mostly balance problems I found on "Epic Duel Legends" update. Feel free to agree, disagree, or add any other comments about it.

1- High Legendary Rank disadvantage:
The eLvl thing was made to balance things, making it better for low ranked players so that they have a better chance to win. But, as an example, The REALLY HIGH RANKED players (rank 100+) are the most injured. Increasing 20 HP on Field and decreasing 10 EP on skill cores won't make up for +3 on all stats. Legendary points give only flat damage/defenses while stats give an extra % in everything else (skills, chance to block/deflect...)
(we had to fight for ranks and now we feel somehow weaker than "beginners"!)

2- Eternal Enhance NERF:
I think it wasn't pointed that it would be nerfed, correct me if I'm wrong. It's pretty pointless now, (+1) on all stats, same effect lower ranked people have for FREE. (we had to fight for that core too!)

3- Classes/skills/robots that lost their effects due to big changes:
3.1- Mercenary, a STRENGTH-based class and most of their skills:
First of all, making gun based on dexterity gave a big problem to mercenaries: Most skills are based on strength and, since strength only affects primary damage and strength-based skills, most mercenaries attacks are predictable. In other words, if you fight high strength merc with a energy primary weapon, a shield would protect from most of his attacks. Not to mention the dex builds being overrated makes all of mercenaries' most important skills to be easily blocked (including energy drain, an important resource on every battle). And NO, mercenaries wouldn't use too high dex, because it wouldn't make ANY skill stronger.
3.2- Kartherax, Bio Borg and Spirit Thorns (Blood Hawk armor's core):
Since strength became highly unusable, those are highly devalued, too. Spirit torns became costless, but it is not used anymore because of those changes.
3.3- Focus builds:
Those will have to choose between dex or support (since strength only affects primary, increasing strength on a focus build is a suicide build where you are insistently blocked).
3.3.1- A high-tech focus build with dextery will give average defense and good robot damage, but dexterity builds still beats it for getting faster rage and doing tons of damage on it.
3.3.2- A high-tech focus build with support will have good aux/robot damage with low chance to be deflected, but low defense. Once again, dex builds beat them by stunning and using a physical gun, for example.
3.4- Cyber Hunter:
Most of their skills are energy and based on tech, they became an easy prey too, the variety of builds of this class is gone.

4- DOMINATING stats/builds:
4.1- Support (Tactical Mercenary):
This one is mysteriously effective against everyone. High chance to crit, rarely deflected, as I experienced (what? is support affecting deflection too?), deadly multi, aux and poison.
4.2- Dexterity (Tech mage and Bounty hunters):
Stun, multi and now gun, that combo is overrated for a stat that already covers the player against melee attacks and defense damage.

I think strength was better before, since it already had many counters. Boosting the use of dexterity or lowering strength damage would be ok, but doing both was a HUGE IMPACT, specially for mercs.

Well, those are some problems I experienced and noticed on this new update, I don't know if everyone feels the same, but I particularly think balance was not that bad before... Just my opinion.

(Special attention to the red coloured ones, please!)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
5/10/2015 17:23:07   
shadow.bane
Member

really low amount of players are mercenaries .
i am an f5 bh that i don't find hard time to get a very high % talking about 90 % + ... dex has same impact on me as before nothing is changed but the more % of stun .
they only problem that i face now is the deflection % moving it from 2.5 for each 1 % to 5 for each 1 % made me deflect little and have a hard time with support users .
also block % vs a high str player with low dex let's say 35 + 35 << the common dex for str abuser and i use 52 + 35 Dex so in old times i used to have 6.8 % chance to block while my enemy had 2 % (old minimum block %) but now hat it's 5 dex for every 1 % of block is not good at all that gave me 3.4 % chance to block while my enemy have 0 % to block but since the most players uses celtic cleaver that now have 8 % chance to connect made my dex worthless ... even with smoke - 30 it gives 11.4 % chance to block - 8 % so i have 3.4 % in total which is nothing .

< Message edited by shadow.bane -- 5/10/2015 17:24:14 >

_____________________________

Bane Hallow The Last Shadow Fiend.
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
5/10/2015 17:49:45   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

most players uses celtic cleaver that now have 8 % chance to connect made my dex worthless

Yeah, and the core only works on Strike - it doesn't give you 8% to skills or anything, just the Strike button. The same with Primary Mastery working just on Strike, Gun Mastery working on normal Gun attack and not Active Gun cores, etc.

To cover your points one by one, in order:
  • We also have to think about players facing the Legendary players + since it's also applied to players at lower level (not just Legendary matches), and they have scaled HP/EP per level + skill points, this means the boost is worth less at under L40, than it is at L40. Underdog Mode is meant to indirectly nerf the Ranks, by giving the underdog a higher chance to beat you. However, the point of Underdog is to make it easier for the lower level (or Rank) player but not put the underdog + higher level (or Rank) player on par. Objectively speaking, Ranks still have an advantage because:
    • 1 eLvl = 10 Ranks (whilst it's closer to 6-7 in reality)
    • stats face diminishing returns unlike Ranks, both stats and Ranks stack with skills - stats improve skills, but Def/Res increase + Primary damage increase stack with Plasma / Mineral / Hybrid Armor + the likes of Bludgeon / Zerker / etc.
    • you have control over the boosts and where you place them, whilst Underdog has +1 / +2 / etc to all stats, i.e. not customizable

  • Eternal Enhance giving +1 is actually a bug, because the description mentions it gives +2. It's also a known bug, so will be fixed next release.

  • Gun change was meant to nerf Strength builds, so it's to be expected Mercenaries would suffer from it - but so will everyone else. Strength builds need high Dex too, but Gun would still end up being weaker than Primary. Lack of skills improving with Dex directly, is more of a class design issue than balance. I mean, we can make some skills improve with Dex, that's not an issue - such as making Double Strike deal less damage (%) but the % would impove with Dex - just like Static Charge works. Sort of like a nerf-buff.
  • These Bots always suffered from fads. Kartherax was effective because Strength builds were powerful. Before that, Botanical Hazard was effective because everyone were using low HP builds - which suffer the most from Poison. I wouldn't hold my breath for any buffs there, because that's not a balance issue but players' build preferences.
  • Focus will always have to choose. It will sometimes boil down to the class and builds they run - I still prefer having Strength as my tertiary stat (from weapon stats) on my alt, because he's a TLM and uses Frenzy + Poison, both of which use Strength for damage. At the same time, my BM benefits from Support more due to Intimidate + Reflex Boost + Energy Shield, hence why I went ahead with that. Likewise with my alt CH, which used the leftover weapon stats on Strength before Static Charge was buffed to what it is now (using Primary weapon damage only). Again, that's more of a class design issue than balance / stat - and a difficult one to deal with, if we were to eliminate it completely - if it's even possible, really.
  • See the first bullet point in this section. I can always try asking if we can make Multi Shot deal Physical damage (for CHs), thus separating it from BHs (+ no overlapping skills!) but I cannot really guarantee anything. I don't know what else we could do to make Dex more appealing for CHs - apart from giving Cheap Shot the same effect as Static Charge (defense ignore increasing with Dex, albeit slowly).

  • Support isn't affecting deflections, no. But yes, with the change to Guns + Strength progression slightly nerfed, Support has received an indirect buff - because it was left untouched. It will be brought up with the Team during the week, since it is a small balance issue.
  • As above; will be looked at.
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 3
    5/10/2015 18:16:35   
    Lord Machaar
    Member

    		Where are all the players who were saying that with or without ranks you can win the battle?

    With some stats on to make the game more fair, or I think many of you have forgotten what does a fair battle mean. Well this is what a fair battle mean, and if you come here to complain why your win ratio dropped by 2%, no one is sorry for you nor for anyone else, because that 2% was given to another player, who is close to quit the game to make you happy. Each player is worthy to the game, whether a level 1 or rank 200. They are all players.

    The devs made a huge error by creating Arrogant Players 2.0, I was one of the arrogant players 1.0, before omega, and we were doing the impossible to keep our win ratio clean, and if we lost to a non var players we came to cry here.
    All high rank players were given a privilege, a privilege none of the vets had, we had thousands of wins even when we reached the level cap. We have never asked for something in return, we were enjoying the game.

    If ranks give advantage in pvp, it is a gift, because they could have made legendary ranks that have 0 relation with Pvp battles, instead they could have introduced legendary shops, legendary cheevos, hardcore missions. Keeping pvp intact, and giving all players a fair chance in the battle.
    But what we see now? Arrogant players who are now afraid from fair battles like varium players before omega, and cutting the road for the majority to enjoy the game.

    Editted to remove reference to deleted post. ~Caststarter

    < Message edited by Caststarter -- 5/10/2015 19:25:08 >
    MQ Epic  Post #: 4
    5/10/2015 20:22:08   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 Build a very high amount of technology and dex TMs can do literally nothing. Their gun is deflected to do almost no damage even though it scales with dex, and their caster spells are energy damage.

    Epic  Post #: 5
    5/12/2015 13:14:57   
    priest_hidan
    Member

    		mages needs to be nerfed as soon as possible... and bounty hunters as well. all the dex build is up the roof.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 6
    5/12/2015 14:46:57   
    The berserker killer
    Member

     

    		 Personally I just haven't been in the mood to PVP. I dont know, but seeing my first opponent have +4 on all stats with underdog mode, along with +6 cores and Eternal Enhance just discouraged me as a high ranking player. Sure i still win alot but to be honest id throw away all my ranks to abuse this underdog mode. I mean I only gained ranks for extra points. Now I see lower ranks are getting points and I'm standing there stupid feeling like I just completely wasted my time. Yeaaa the +30 on weps or defenses is cool but ill choose +4 on all stats, eternal enhance and +6 cores (+11 in total because of the eternal enhance bug) any day of the week.

    My thing is that when I pay for promos, they get nerfed. When I count on a promo coming back based on the promo promise, they declare it rare. When I buy a promo bot with a special that I thought "cant possibly end up getting nerfed", ALL my bots in my inventory end up getting nerfed. The only fair thing in the game that kept me going this far was ranks. It was a feature that I felt that I could just work extremely hard for and have my hard work acknowledged with some extra points and the best thing about it was yea you can Nerf me but I still have my points and you still have to work as hard as I worked in order to gain those points. Thennnnnn the underdog came out and I saw a low ranker with +12 on all stats (+5 on tech) and..well that just sucked. He didn't have t o do anything but be a low level. You shouldn't get rewarded for being a lower level. You should get rewarded when you try your hardest and succeed.

    Once again, this is just my take on the underdog mode and on the balance changes. The underdog mode should've just awarded higher XP and credits instead of offering more stats. Thats not fair and thats just not right. If anything its just sad and its setting a standard for the future saying that whenever you guys find something to be too difficult just complain and we'll fix it. What you should be saying is "Guys I understand that HighRankers are stronger but thats just the way it is. You too will be a high ranker someday". If you cant take the heat in 1v1 then just get out the kitchen instead of getting on forums.

    Once again, this is just my thoughts. I am completely against the UnderDog Mode in its current form and I think there could have been some changes to make it better for low ranks and Higher Ranks. If anything, High Rankers who fight players in UnderDog Mode should get more points too, a tiered cheevo, something. Once again, I will reiterate, you guys are highly underestimating the power of stat bonuses instead of resistance/defense bonuses.

    What I suggest doing is changing underdog mode to boost your (the low ranker) defense, resistance, and primary str, sidearm, aux, and bot damage to an appropriate scale instead of direct stat changes. Now that is fair.
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 7
    5/12/2015 15:08:08   
    Lord Machaar
    Member

    		Why are you mixing up things?
    +6 cores are available for everyone, if low rank player is using it you can also use it.
    As ranloth detailed in his post how ranks still give advantage, I won't do better than that so I suggest you to read his post.

    But what really is interesting in your post is:
    quote:

    Sure i still win alot but to be honest id throw away all my ranks to abuse this underdog mode.

    What I suggest you to do is to read your sentence again.
    You don't want just to win, in fact you want easy wins. You don't want fair battles, yet you are asking for hardcore missions, that are based off PVP missions, what is so hardcore about them anymore? ALL games remain challenging even when you have the highest levels, ED is not different, in fact they have spoiled you for a long time, you don't longer know what does a fair battle mean.

    Look what a type of players ranks have created, give me free wins or I will quit the game.
    Just FYI, during the last 4 years we reached level cap and we didn't ask for anything, but what we see now, arrogant players 2.0.
    The more ranking system gets old the more it gets unfair for new players, have you met high rank players while ranking up? No.


    < Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 5/12/2015 15:10:41 >
    MQ Epic  Post #: 8
    5/12/2015 15:33:07   
    The berserker killer
    Member

     

    		 @Machaar- Eh I'm not a big fan of replying to comments like the ones you've made but ill try to targest some of your points.

    1) Sure ranks still give advantage but I value stat changes more. And so do many other players.
    2) Yes I read my sentence
    3) Yes I like winning easy and my goal is to always win easy but I also would like to win fairly. If they were given + wep damage and + def/res id be cool.
    4) Uh this isn't challenging still. Just went from "Fun Easy Winning" to "Boring Easy Winning"
    5) I like to think I worked to get where I'm at. Not really spoiled.
    6) Read number 3
    7) I like to think I'm pretty nice and not arrogant
    8) Eee given the fact that I was one of the later players to reachevel 40 (in fact I was only level 32 when Legendary Mode came out) I spent the majority of my time fighting higher ranks. I dont mean rank 1s/10s. I mean the Gods of Legendary Ranks such as Ruthless Ninja who was the fastest player to rank up. Man was he amazing in PVP. So yes I have met high ranking players. High ranking experienced players.

    Removed off-topic content. Please keep to the topic at hand. ~Caststarter

    < Message edited by Caststarter -- 5/12/2015 16:07:14 >
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 9
    5/12/2015 15:37:00   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Underdog won't get nerfed, that's for sure. Objectively speaking (fact), Ranks still have an advantage - no matter how you look at it. Ranks also give you access to exclusive shops, and you get an evolving achievement. On top of that, there may be some challenges where you will need these Ranks to beat them - such as Legendary Titan requiring Ranks (to an extent?) to beat him. These can reward more exclusive items, achievements, and so on. As much as it's not a PvP advantage, neither are the two Legendary categories which help you with NPCs.
    Pricing of Ranks can also get looked at to make up for the changes, but there's nothing guaranteed either - nor a main priority. Although refunds are another story, which is what's also stopping us from making changes to it, really.

    I'm sorry but we cannot alienate players by making Underdog weaker. It's one thing to have exclusive stuff that's not affecting PvP, but PvP is the core of the game and almost everything revolves around it - whether it's Missions, achievements, wars (unless you pay), and so on.

    We must think about balance objectively, so it benefits everyone; not focus on a select few, and have to work around them - that's not what balance is about.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 10
    5/12/2015 15:43:42   
    The berserker killer
    Member

     

    		 Yeaaa I understand that it cant be nerfed, I was just offering feedback from my perspective. Good point with the exclusive features that you'll need ranks for too! These features seem like they'll continue growing so I'm excited to see where that takes us.

    However I would say that you guys should really think about changing the price. I would have preferred you to release all 100 ranks and kept 40 of them "unequippable" or something so that players could've bought them when something like Gifting was in fashion and we were buying varium left to right.
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 11
    5/12/2015 15:59:57   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 The Legendary Revamp wasn't planned until February, which is when the work begun up until last week - alongside other releases. If we knew there won't be a backlash from changing the pricing, we could consider it a lot easier and faster but we're in a limbo. If we lower Credit price, it won't cause much issues but if Varium is lowered, refunds will be asked for and that'd cause similar backlash to enhancements. I don't know how refunds work either, since that's AE's choice (not ED's sole decision).

    I wish there was an easier way around it, but there isn't. We either keep it the same (some don't like it), or reduce price (more would like it, but backlash would be bigger too). I mean, we can probably compensate it by giving everyone who spent Credits/Varium on buying Ranks (anyone Rank 2 and above) an exclusive Rare weapon, but it's just another coreless weapon. Exclusive achievement similar to how enhancement had theirs? Could work, too. But it'd still result in a backlash from players. Until we have an effective way to lower the price (if at all?), it will remain as it is.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 12
    5/12/2015 18:58:05   
    The berserker killer
    Member

     

    		 Yeaaa I understand
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 13
    5/12/2015 21:37:22   
    dfo99
    Member
     

    		 this update this the result of the lack of comunication of epic duel devs with the actual small players base, from the around 500 players constantly online probably less than 30 use the forum or twitter of the devs (the guys who log on twitter only for codes does not count), there is a large % of the guys who really like use str builds and now due some people using autoclick + str builds and the others % complaining, these str fans can't play ed as before. obviously is impossible to please everyone, but made a update which a huge amount of players will dislike is really hard to understand.
    Post #: 14
    5/12/2015 23:01:54   
    Alkimos
    Banned
    quote:

    really low amount of players are mercenaries .


    It does not make a difference. Stonehawk played a mercenary for some time, as well as I currently do. This class will never be up to par because of static smash not being unblockable.
    Mercenary would be really strategic if it was unblockable. That is how I have always played BUT why should I lose to someone I out strategize, but they still win because of a block???!!!

    < Message edited by Alkimos -- 5/12/2015 23:03:46 >
    Epic  Post #: 15
    5/13/2015 0:01:55   
    .Lord Ginger.
    Member

    		@alkimos That's basically saying why lose if I go 2nd, why lose if deflec, why lose if crit, why lose if rage at 99% and not 100%...


    HOWEVER, IT'S THE ONLY ENERGY SKILL THAT ISN'T GUARANTEED ENERGY! If unblockable, I'd try mecenary again

    < Message edited by .Lord Ginger. -- 5/13/2015 0:11:55 >
    AQW Epic  Post #: 16
    5/13/2015 1:37:01   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 If we make it unblockable, it will also have smaller conversion %; it'll drain less EP to compensate. Similar to how Atom Smash is unblockable - it costed less EP when it was blockable, and the cost was increased to compensate for being unblockable.

    Alternatively, we can make it work like Static Charge - % of your Primary weapon only, and % improves with Strength? Or maybe Dex, since Mercs don't have any skill which improves directly with it? Just throwing suggestions around, not confirming a change will happen.

    < Message edited by Ranloth -- 5/13/2015 1:38:38 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 17
    5/13/2015 8:53:47   
    .Lord Ginger.
    Member

    		Sure, dex. But also need energy drain similar to the % in BH to make kind of even(energy drain skills)
    AQW Epic  Post #: 18
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