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The Current Meta: What it means and what works

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5/26/2015 23:38:03   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 The current metagame for Epic Duel has greatly changed since the great days of previous phases that we all know and love. But, what does this new meta mean for builds? What has it caused in terms of build variety, build types, what builds are successful, etc...?

First, let's look at some of the most notable changes that happened over the past few years:

-Agility was removed
-Passives removed
-Cores added
-Every class has some sort of control over energy flow
-Damage output in general nerfed very heavily
-HP/EP gain per point scaled down to be less
-Debuffs have been weakened, buffs in general strengthened

Forgive me if I forgot anything, but these are the changes that stand out the most to me over the past while.

Now what do these changes mean to the 1v1 random battles we fight whenever we log on?

The removal of agility actually had a huge impact. People were extremely reluctant to go past the old 95 HP (which is equivalent to 950 HP now). The diminishing return effect was ridiculously hindering on the effectiveness of builds, so you rarely saw someone with over 125 HP. Majority had 95-110. Well, now look at all the builds today. Tons of HP. The average build today has the equivalent of what would back then been around maybe 120 HP or so.

The removal of passives, we can all agree on, was not a very good idea. It just kind of shot down most of the unique traits that the classes had. Instead, we get really lackluster actives. Mineral armor is just a different defensive buff, but it serves the same purpose as most. In fact, in the current meta, it doesn't really do much unless in specific circumstances against people who are bad at balancing out their damage output types. Blood Lust got turned into something which requires a strength-scaling attack to initiate, and limits your choice of moves for the next 4 turns. Now that we don't have passives, it makes most classes really similar. What this does is make opponents in random 1v1s even more generalized so it's easier to come up with universal builds that almost always work well, or at least perform above-average, with a very rare anomaly that is a hard counter.

Cores were added. Fun stuff, these are. They really were interesting and hyped, but the slowdown of their production kind of makes their concept add not too much fun to the game. Anyways, these single-use unique skills have greatly impacted the meta. The first thing they do is add some crazy passive stats. In essence, these are the new passives. And since any class can use them, like stated before, builds are really generalized, especially since only a small handful of the best cores are used, and useless ones like overshield are rarely ever used. These do add a bit of fun to build creation, but the nature of the cores released so far have been terribly lacking in innovation and don't really do this. It would be a lot cooler if we could have cores that entire builds could be focused around. Right now cores really serve a purpose more of patching up the tiny weaknesses here and there in our builds.

Now, every class has some control over energy flow. This shot down class uniqueness even more. I cri every day because of it. Basically, every class has their own unique way of controlling how energy transfers and is consumed during battle. The only problem with this is it basically now defines the classes exclusively. It also means energy is a ridiculously contested resource, and you are typically not making a smart move if you don't do some energy stealing or regenerating move as soon as you safely and efficiently can. This means lots of stalled turns not doing damage. Also means barely any points need to be invested in EP in most cases, allowing points to be invested more in other things. Because diminishing returns haven't been touched much, our favorite resource HP has received most of the EP.

Damage output in general got nerfed. You just don't hit as hard as in the good old days. Oh well. Because of this, fights generally take a bit longer aside from those heal-loopy battles we remember from the previous phases. No more 4-turn massacre BHs dominating the 1v1 queue. Most battles against fairly competent people will take 10+ turns. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a very apparent concept of the current meta.

The HP/EP scaling got reduced, mainly because you gain base HP and EP when you level up. Not really much different going on here.

Debuffs weakened. Oh, how I remember those days where you gained so much power from debuffs. They weren't necessarily the most balanced days, but it was definitely different from today. Anyways, I will get more into debuffs in just a moment.

So, to sum up what has now happened in the meta:

-Super long fights
-Lots of stalled turns
-"Give me my energy back" every battle
-"Why is my sword doing as much damage as a very sharp toothpick"
-Because of super long fights, really bursty builds are no longer favored and builds that can sustain themselves for a very long time while maintaining a good damage output are generally the safest if not the strongest

The Fall of Debuffs

People wonder why I keep saying debuffs suck. There are actually a ton of reasons. One of the benefits debuffs did get in the current meta is that pretty much every build is forced to run balanced defense and resistance since there are so many different damage types that if you have a weakness it will get exploited super easily. Debuffs therefore are almost always guaranteed to not be cheesed by RNG matchups in the queue where you fight someone with 400 defense and 200 resistance. But, this is what's bad about debuffs:
-They force you to strike. We all know what happened to strength.
-The energy it takes to cast a defensive buff which overcompensates on a massive scale for the debuff effects is really small compared to the energy consumption
-Skill point allocation is focused heavily on energy flow skills. This means that if you're putting points in a debuff and plan to use it, you have to put a lot in, which makes you have barely any skill points to put in other things. And in a meta of sustained damage, having a maxed out plasma cannon or something else is very useful since it gives your build the ever-threatening burst. People are forced to heal prematurely in situations they don't like simply because you have a maxed out caster skill causing a potential threat to them. Debuffs make your damage output very predictable, so this will rarely happen.
-Since you're so busy stealing energy and whatnot in order to keep up with your opponent, you waste debuff turns.

These are the main reasons. There are others, but they aren't as important as the above listed reasons. As you can see, in the current meta, debuffs are near useless. rip.

What builds work?

Builds with good sustainability and sustained damage. Focus builds are the very first to come to mind. Support has become enough of a reliable stat at this point that tanky builds with slightly more support than the average focus build will give you a crit every so often and prevent crits from being landed on you, while giving you some faster rage gain. Strength simply doesn't have the numbers to back it up as it is a raw damage stat and at the current point in time its raw damage is far from being a desirable type of raw. Caster builds, most notably on TM for their very strong energy gain abilities, are also functional. The key points are that you want a build that can sustain itself and favors living over dealing damage. However, you absolutely need enough damage so that you don't get heal-looped to death. This shifts based on the class you are running. Classes that can generate energy like CH, BM, and TM can more easily play on the tankier side. Classes like BH which cannot generate their own energy have to go a bit more offensive in order to prevent themselves from dying due to lack of energy.

For bots, the first thing I can say is that gamma bot is very, very bad. Yetis used to be very strong but after strength died down it isn't that good anymore, and bunny bots are useless as well. Basically any bot that can be cheesed by enemies who stall turns will not work out well. IA is usable exclusively because it provides burst. In this meta, burst is very important, because sustained damage is key to dealing with all the heals and tankier efforts going on, but if you have a single burst skill you can basically force your opponent to heal in turns they could otherwise use to get a huge advantage on you. The threat of just having a skill that does massive damage in one turn will scare them enough that they have to play cautiously, widening up your options.

aaaaand.... I was gonna go on and type more but I'm running out of time so this'll be the end of the post.
Epic  Post #: 1
5/27/2015 6:35:31   
Satafou
Member

So what are you actually trying to say here? Your post just sounds someone rambling on and on without actually explaining what your post is about. The meta.

You've in a round about way implied what the meta is however, you haven't said how this meta came about-you tried to imply it through your list of "notable changes", although that's only a starting point to the real answer-and why this meta in particular is a negative aspect of this game. You've also decided to add points which you're well aware of the fact the devs thoroughly refuse to reinstate them (passives).

One important change you have forgotten is the "let's make all weapons the same, no more requirements despite skills still having requirements!!!" This factor had a very negative impact towards the outcome of this game's balance. Requirements were a vital aspect of this game and they were there for a good reason. In a way you could link that with weapons having no requirements lead to the nerfs of many previously viable builds. The beta caster TM in mid delta, is the prime example of this. The casters were able to abuse technology whilst not having to implement stats into support, strength or dex. As a result of this, they could use their reroute more efficiently that other TM's with this build as they took more physically damage intake resulting in more mana gained. When this build got nerfed, the multi 85%(although it is slightly buffed from that now) came into place and their multi that previously improved with technology, now dex, -yes dex TM's before weren't a possibility- Everyone could see back then that removing the requirements from weapons was a bad idea, not only for balance, but also for their business. Now more than ever vast amounts of weapons are getting released and very few are actually buying them. Why? As they come coreless, they are not unique, they are the same as 99% of the items in Epicduel. Even those who do buy them,buy them with credits and not varium, the gifting event was a short term profit, as now everyone across the land of Delta V is loaded with hundreds of thousands and some even as much as 13 million credits.

The problem Epicduel is in right now is that they need to decide what they want. Do they want a game where Epicduel has obtained near enough perfection in balance, (which would also be boring) or do they want to make it so that there's a huge amount of build combinations and that it's a bit like rock, paper, scissors? Only on a much grander scale of possibility +10 viable build types. It's not too late to achieve any of these, however they have to decided now, because right now they are trying to do both, and it's just not going to work.

I don't really feel the need to repeat anything you've written, so i'm just going to leave my post at that. However this post will most likely get overlooked by the devs, as a lot of the time it seems that they really can't be bothered putting effort into formulating and then taking the action to implement a release of a large scale change, one flowing to either the direction or pure balance or variety of such a large scale that balance doesn't even play a large factor among builds, but rather on the game's mechanics itself, for example thing such as agility,the previous +5 dmg minimum for 5 focus builds ect.
Post #: 2
5/27/2015 20:03:06   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 First of all, the post is not completed, and I don't really have the motivation to complete it since I have more important priorities. This is more just an informational thing, and has no direction towards the devs. It was created entirely for other players to read.

And yes, I did forget the "let's make all weapons the same." But this doesn't change the meta that much at all. Basically, before there were the generic BH massacre builds, etc... and many different alternate but still very similar builds were made because not everybody had access to the same equipment. However, the same builds in general were there. Currently, the slight variations are just more normalized to the original generic builds. Basically, the only main change that can easily be analyzed and noted is the lack of insane stat abuse, as stats are forced to be more rounded due to the limit on stat enhancements.

In essence, the post is rambling, because it's just spouting out my ideas and logical deductions for others to soak up.
Epic  Post #: 3
5/28/2015 12:21:34   
I Underlord I
Member

I'd like to briefly cover your major points in order; please forgive the short responses. :}

* I, too, am displeased with the removal of Agility; however, the developers seemed to deem the function a "band-aid" solution, though unfortunately they don't seem to have made much progress in resolving the sheer power of HP since.

* Passive skills as they were frankly should have been removed; I did not support their complete elimination, but the step itself at the time was for the better. One could assert the same of energy control, but at least there is variation in that regard among the classes, and quite a lot will have to be changed before we can tackle this issue. In addition, energy control moves help make battles more even and fair; they do not grant particular perennial buffs for which the efficacy is often contingent simply on the type of battle and the stat setup of the player, with perhaps cursory regard for actual builds and choices.

*Cores were an excellent addition; unfortunately, as you stated, the lack of production makes them that much less interesting and diverse. Still, hopefully the Balance Tool will be released soon; it would be an excellent way for active and carefully-selected players to aid the staff in maintaining balance as well as adding cores to make the game more exciting and diverse.
--* Incidentally, due partly to the low number of cores, one cannot state that a certain [passive] core is objectively better than another (as they simply affect different things and with sufficient percentages so as to make them all reasonably effective for certain builds) -- excepting certain phenomena such as the standard Lucky Strike as opposed to the Celtic Cleaver's (though the recent change has made this less of an issue).

* Honestly, the major issue with energy control isn't necessarily its essence but rather the collective choice of the players to set a meta wherein minimum (or a value close to minimum) EP dominates. (It is true that Energy Parasite contributed to this, but the introduction of that skill isn't sufficient to explain the phenomenon.) This is not to say that energy control is not an issue in itself; rather, there are, as I touched upon earlier, other problems that need to be addressed before we can reasonably work on this one.

* Damage output in itself is only lacking in the Hunter classes; the Mage and Mercenary classes have multiple good skills for such. If you meant more in terms of "nuke" skills (in which case, I apologize), the point still stands; Massacre simply isn't used that much and Supercharge only somewhat more so (but Mages still have skills such as Bludgeon and Overload), while Surgical Strike sees quite a lot of utilization. Even so, the lack of nuke skills isn't a bad thing per se.

* As you said, decreased HP and EP scaling don't mean much because of higher base EPs. However, this does make base EP even more feasible; as such, beyond the simple fact of HP being "overpowered," redesign is necessary.

* Debuffs might be significantly inferior to buffs at this time, but for better or for worse, their utility these days is scarcely to lower defenses (unless one fights an opponent who disregards the exploitation or simply has so much HP it doesn't matter) but rather to force particular moves and make use of the circumstances that might arise. They don't necessarily force Strikes, and it's not that problematic if they do; Strength is still very viable -- it is simply not objectively overpowered and mindless as it was before. I would grant that 5-Focus builds tend to use debuffs most and most effectively, so their damage from Strikes is comparatively minimal, but that would have been the case regardless of buffs.

* It's true Focus builds seem to dominate the game, given the recent nerf to Strength, but it would probably be for the better of EpicDuel if (1) we were to focus on Focus in late game and (2) how Focus works were to be changed. Robots should be necessary at the end of the game, and it is honestly ridiculous that people without them were able to battle almost as effectively as those with them; in fact, all special moves should also increase with Focus (if the system were to be redone). Stat abuse should never be a viable thing, nor should those with perfectly balanced stats receive only the same bonus as those who emphasize one or more within a framework. Pushing focus would thus push balanced stats and more interesting battles. Previously, I would have argued that Technology should not modify Robot damage; however, since Sidearm damage is now modified by Dexterity, this is no longer a concern.

* You might think that the Gamma Bot is bad, but it is not from both a numerical and a logical standpoint. Infernal Android might be "good" in the current meta, but that doesn't render Gamma Bot "bad." Especially when one considers the fact that IA relies entirely on the single-use Infernal Overload, which can be deflected as much as Gamma Fire can be. In consideration of your discussion about 'sustainable" builds being the most viable and battles being relatively long, the complaint about Gamma Bot doesn't make much sense. One also cannot compare utility Robots (with a true "special" move) to damage Robots (where the special move also directly deals [more] damage).

_____________________________

"Memories and thoughts age, just as people do. But certain thoughts can never age, and certain memories can never fade."
~ Haruki Murakami, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle
AQ  Post #: 4
5/28/2015 12:39:55   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

Still, hopefully the Balance Tool will be released soon; it would be an excellent way for active and carefully-selected players to aid the staff in maintaining balance as well as adding cores to make the game more exciting and diverse.

Balance Tool helps us make changes to existing skills and changing how they work, without needing any help from Titan or Rabble. If it means implementing new effect completely / creating new skill or core, the Tool cannot do that - it's not something you can do with an automated system. It's been in use for the past few months already, dating as far back as Static Charge change to Primary weapon damage.

< Message edited by Ranloth -- 5/28/2015 12:42:20 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 5
5/28/2015 15:44:43   
The berserker killer
Member

 
quote:

-Super long fights
-Lots of stalled turns
-"Give me my energy back" every battle
-"Why is my sword doing as much damage as a very sharp toothpick"
-Because of super long fights, really bursty builds are no longer favored and builds that can sustain themselves for a very long time while maintaining a good damage output are generally the safest if not the strongest


I've been saying this would happen if we continue nerfing everything and look where we're at. You guys cant keep nerfing because a fun build comes out and players complain about it. Most build makers I know have extremely over powered builds that we just hide now because we're scared you're gonna Nerf them. It shouldn't be that way.

Most of the problems could have easily been prevented with better or more experienced testers
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 6
5/28/2015 15:52:35   
comicalbike
Member

The berserker killer in your dreams
Epic  Post #: 7
5/28/2015 17:45:06   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Sadly. I can only dream they will realize it soon
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 8
5/28/2015 17:49:32   
Lord Machaar
Member

If you want 3 turn battles, I suggest you to play candy crush.
MQ Epic  Post #: 9
5/28/2015 18:36:22   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator
quote:

You might think that the Gamma Bot is bad, but it is not from both a numerical and a logical standpoint. Infernal Android might be "good" in the current meta, but that doesn't render Gamma Bot "bad." Especially when one considers the fact that IA relies entirely on the single-use Infernal Overload, which can be deflected as much as Gamma Fire can be. In consideration of your discussion about 'sustainable" builds being the most viable and battles being relatively long, the complaint about Gamma Bot doesn't make much sense. One also cannot compare utility Robots (with a true "special" move) to damage Robots (where the special move also directly deals [more] damage).


I said it wrong in the OP. It's not that gamma bot is bad as an individual bot, it's more that it should rarely be used because many other bots are just downright direct upgrades and very similar in nature, or if not similar, fit similar purposes or serve similar roles in the builds they are placed on.

quote:

If you want 3 turn battles, I suggest you to play candy crush.


I don't like 3 turn battles. But, I think that builds that are aimed to make like 5-turn battles or just shorter fights in general should have a chance at doing that. Right now they just outright can not work at all unless under specific circumstances. If you have a build that aims for longer fights, then you will get longer fights. If you have a build more geared toward really short fights, then you should get shorter fights, but at the same time not have a trashy win ratio because of that nature of your build.
Epic  Post #: 10
5/28/2015 19:11:17   
Lord Machaar
Member

The reply wasn't really for you but anyways.

Logic says:
Fast wins (less time consumed) - Meduim win ratio.
Slow wins (more time invested in the battle) - Good win ratio.

I think this is a rule, do you agree with it? Because what comes next is based off it.

A sentence I just wanted to discuss about.
quote:

I think that builds that are aimed to make like 5-turn battles or just shorter fights in general should have a chance at doing that.


Some builds right now actually can do that. Support builds, they frankly can finish off battles in 2 - 3 turns because they are a case sensitive builds. Dex builds, a stun + azrael's will + multi, that's pretty much it. But ofcourse this won't work, actually it shouldn't, these builds are aimed for fast wins, and when you aim for fast wins, it is like gambling, sometimes you hit it, sometimes you don't, especially in support builds case, as for dex builds, they are pretty much the in-between build here as they can control how long the battle can take.

Otherwise, if these fast builds give fast wins + good winning ratio, who would play slow builds? therefore the variety will go with it. I mean this is logic, it is not even an opinion. Sure somtimes these fast builds will be broken, but that's why testing is there, and balance is there.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 5/30/2015 15:12:07 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 11
5/28/2015 20:48:35   
Darius
Member

quote:

If you have a build more geared toward really short fights, then you should get shorter fights, but at the same time not have a trashy win ratio because of that nature of your build.


But that's the risk one acknowledges and assumes when deciding to build their character into a glass cannon. If the majority of players these days are building their characters for the long ball, it's naturally going to be a rough season for anyone trying to run a blitz. Is the risk ultimately worth it, is the question; presently, I'd venture to guess it's not.

What you seem to be complaining about is that the current state of the meta doesn't suit your preferred playstyle. Aww, that's too bad. But buck up, buckaroo! The meta will inevitably change one day, as all metas in competitive gaming do. Just be patient, go with the flow, and you should be able to stick it out until the next major shift. Who knows, maybe that one will be more to your liking?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
5/28/2015 22:12:02   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Lets continue nerfing and make matches more bland and longer!! Go EpicDelay
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 13
5/28/2015 22:27:47   
Mother1
Member

@ TBK

Everyone doesn't like fast battles and this is fact. If everyone did then everyone would be using glass cannons and quick kill builds. It is obvious that those who use tank builds want longer battles because their builds are designed for long term fights.

Also your complaint about nerfing builds over and over again has been here for the longest even before I started playing this game. So to be honest complaining about something that has been happening for the longest TBH is kind of pointless.
Epic  Post #: 14
5/28/2015 22:30:47   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Sorry if it looked like I was being sarcastic, I seriously wasn't. It has actually gotten to the point where pvp is getting so bad that I'm not complaining, just going with the flow and encouraging the current state of the game. The more I encourage it, the quicker the process of trial and error can begin.

Edit: I seriously support nerfing at the moment, along with equality even though it is misconstrued continuously as balance.

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 5/28/2015 22:33:15 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 15
5/30/2015 14:33:51   
I Underlord I
Member

quote:

Ranloth wrote:

Balance Tool helps us make changes to existing skills and changing how they work, without needing any help from Titan or Rabble. If it means implementing new effect completely / creating new skill or core, the Tool cannot do that - it's not something you can do with an automated system. It's been in use for the past few months already, dating as far back as Static Charge change to Primary weapon damage.

I see; my apologies for my ignorance!
I could have sworn you referenced the ability to create new cores (if not necessarily also skills) through the Tool in the past; perhaps I'm going insane?

Regardless, it's great to know that Balance Tool has been released and already been used to great effect. ^^

quote:

Exploding Penguin wrote:

I said it wrong in the OP. It's not that gamma bot is bad as an individual bot, it's more that it should rarely be used because many other bots are just downright direct upgrades and very similar in nature, or if not similar, fit similar purposes or serve similar roles in the builds they are placed on.

That's entirely contingent on each player and what happens to be the current meta, but I can certainly see where you're coming from as far as what might be considered usability and utility. :}
AQ  Post #: 16
5/30/2015 16:04:43   
shadow.bane
Member

i am a f5 guy all my ed life ... i wouldn't be happier about long battles well cause i know myself that when ever the battle is longer my winning % grow , cause with any class am just good at staying alive :p and as exploding said bh if he didn't goo offensive he wont win cause of energy base .... dude all my games are defensive till me and my enemy ran out of energy then i go offensive cause basically i can end a match in 3 - 4 rounds after running of energy . gun , aux that deals 150 + damage then bam a rage with infernal overload that deals between 500 - 600 damage and don't matter how much armor u have ... the secret is to keep balance in ur static grenade and the enemy's energy generating move . so u keep him with 0 energy all the time .
AQW Epic  Post #: 17
5/31/2015 14:33:23   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator
quote:

dude all my games are defensive till me and my enemy ran out of energy then i go offensive cause basically i can end a match in 3 - 4 rounds after running of energy . gun , aux that deals 150 + damage then bam a rage with infernal overload that deals between 500 - 600 damage and don't matter how much armor u have ... the secret is to keep balance in ur static grenade and the enemy's energy generating move . so u keep him with 0 energy all the time .


This would only work if:1
1. you are a higher level
2. You start off at an advantage after almost all energy is drained

Basically because everybody is equal without energy. Supposing you and your opponent are both f5 builds it would come out even unless one of the 2 above conditions are met. If you are facing someone like a caster they're just going a downright bad build for running caster on a build or class that can't infinitely generate energy very easily.
Epic  Post #: 18
5/31/2015 15:03:31   
shadow.bane
Member

^ i basically use this meta versus any level any rank player and it work 95 % + of the time . higher rank or lower rank are the same to me when they have 0 energy ! then here luck will play like a deflection will destroy me or a block do the same to me ... since i have good stats it rarely happen so after that 0 to 0 energy luck will play and who deals more damage will win . and i have pretty good decent damage in all types except my primary but i rarely use it but to mob, smoke or when i ran out of option (and that's extremely rare)
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
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