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Fixing up Stun Skills

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7/19/2015 15:32:11   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 In a strategy game random luck that is extremely impactful in battles should not exist. Like stuns.

Here are some ideas on how to change the current stun skills to still maintain an interesting secondary effect which can be used with other builds while removing the whole random luck factor. The skills might still need some buffs on their damage numbers but this thread will be focused on replacing the 25% stun chance secondary effect with other ones.

Overload:
The next turn your opponent's deflect damage reduction is reduced by 65% of its original value. For example, if they would deflect 100% damage (which is never possible but we will use this for example's sake) then instead they will deflect you for 35% damage should they deflect a ranged attack used next turn.

What this does is provide a far more reliable effect which supplements a lot of problems that overload has, mainly that building high support leaves you vulnerable to deflections. Overload now serves as a skill with a secondary which provides more consistent damage on the following turn.

Stun Grenade -> Frag Grenade (renamed):
Ignores 10% of the target's defense and improves the damage of the next attack by 8% (+1% per skill point invested) for a maximum of +17% more damage.

This buffs the overall usefulness of the skill as it will do more damage on initial impact and can be used in conjunction with other skills like multi shot to deal tons of damage. If you have a well-invested grenade your opponent will have to be cautious as the extra % damage is not too much (+102 damage on a move that does 600 damage base) given the skill's cost but can be used to threaten opponents into recovering energy earlier so that they can use field medic.

Plasma Grenade:
Base damage: -20 at all levels
Scaling damage: -5% scaling ratio
For each 1% of the target's missing energy this skill does 1.35 + (0.15%) damage. At max the damage boost is 135 flat damage + 15% more base damage.

This cranks up CH's ability to drain very large amounts of energy in a single turn, as it is now combined with a threat. High-tech builds now have a bit more synergy and the unreliable stun effect has been replaced with a damage upgrade to a skill, although prerequisites must be met for the skill to do very threatening amounts of damage. The flat damage allows the bonus damage to still be noteworthy on builds that don't put 100+ points into technology, although the synergy with EMP grenade will be weaker and the bonus damage slightly less.

Maul:
Performs a melee attack which ignores 20% defense/resistance and grants bonus rage whist reducing the damage dealt by the opponent's next attack within 3 turns.
Bonus Rage: 15% (+3% of normal rage gained per skill point)
Damage reduction on opponent's next attack: 8% (+2% per skill point)

Fits into merc's theme of having the best control over rage gain. Damage reduction on an opponent reduces the rage they would normally gain on their next attack and the at max +42% more rage on the attack itself gives a nice boost. Aside from that the skill itself at level 1 maintains its ability to be a one-point wonder where the 20% defense/resistance ignoring is very applicable and useful.

The whole goal is to remove stuns from the game in favor of more reliable secondary effects. Stuns should not be completely random game-winning moves because that drains a lot of the strategy out of a PvP game which is supposed to focus on it. These suggestions are probably not entirely balanced but they do offer an alternative to the current problem concerning stun skills' impact being absolutely random, arguably almost doubling in effect every 25% of the time which in my opinion should not be happening.

< Message edited by Exploding Penguin -- 7/20/2015 15:58:00 >
Epic  Post #: 1
7/20/2015 6:16:58   
King Bling
Member

Same goes with random blocks n defls n crits
Post #: 2
7/20/2015 8:28:12   
overdead
Member

Not supported. Although "veterans" claim that the luck based skill completely ruined strategy in this game, that luck factor is the only thing stopping the discovery of the perfect build and class combination (near 100% formulaic win-loss ratio).
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
7/20/2015 8:29:40   
Illuminist
Member
 

 the 900 HP BH build without RNG is basically the 100% win build
Post #: 4
7/20/2015 9:19:41   
Bender Rodriguez
Member

If the "perfect build" as you describe is discovered, the masses will surely copy it. Once it gets to that point, the average player won't be able to consistently manage a win loss ratio near 100% when a majority of the playerbase is using the exact same build.

A skilled player might, but the majority won't. This will, as always, lead the staff to "balance" it. Then the cycle continues as it always has.

I agree with Exploding Penguin, luck shouldn't be as influential as it is now in a "strategy" game. Either way, random luck doesn't affect the existence of a "perfect build".

< Message edited by Bender Rodriguez -- 7/20/2015 9:20:38 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
7/20/2015 9:23:49   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 So what about Maul?
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
7/20/2015 9:34:30   
overdead
Member

@bender: exactly. those are the two problems of removing luck factor: (1) there will be a "champion" class and build combo which will dominate, and (2) everyone will copy the winning build (killing diversity) and the highest rank wins every time.

This is basically str tms in a nutshell at legend level. They basically eat all lower ranks. The luck factor of deflects, blocks, stuns are the only chance of some classes against them.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
7/20/2015 9:53:01   
Bender Rodriguez
Member

That's another problem yes, but the luck factor still shouldn't exist in its current form.

The issue that you're describing is the lack of situational skills. Although it provides relief, the ideal solution to that problem isn't the luck factor.



Under the circumstance where the luck factor is removed entirely and two players with the exact same class, build, and rank, face off against one another, the more skillful player would win. Luck degrades the value of skill.

The issue of diversity is another problem on its own.
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
7/20/2015 13:44:05   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Blocks, deflects, and crits are different in the way that they at least give you more rage if they happen to you so there is some compensation. Additionally, there are almost always other alternative moves which can be used if you are afraid of these things happening. Stun skills on the other hand are either hit-or-miss moves that if they miss will provide a turn with subpar effectiveness compared to other moves but otherwise will be crazy rewarding if they do stun. The skill itself is completely based off of that 25% stun chance as the damage is pretty weak compared to other caster skills. If the core of a skill is meant to be circulated around luck in a strategy game I think it should be changed.

And I don't agree with the luck factor being the stopgap for a perfect build. While it is true that at certain points in time luck factors were relied on to counter the popular builds such as strength ones countered by high dex builds, there were still builds that existed in those periods that did not rely on luck to beat said builds. Additionally, if a dex build that has a 30% block chance against a strength build blocks 1 time in 5 turns melee attacks, that result can be said to be highly expected and therefore isn't really "luck" anymore as that sort of outcome is probably gonna happen with that high of a block chance. The only case in which luck has been depended on for builds is really support builds with crits and deflects.

No build can ever be perfect because despite the less notable existence of rock-paper-scissors matchups that once existed that kind of cycle with balance still happens. Popular build comes into play that is fairly successful followed by someone making a build specifically meant to target that build, and then the cycle shifts to target that build instead, etc... No luck involved.

I will update the OP for maul in a moment since I forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me.
Epic  Post #: 9
7/20/2015 14:15:21   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 I like the idea of removing stun and adding a secondary effect, Plasma excluded it just hurts more, because that keeps them in their theme of not great on the damage output that turn but still very useful if they go well
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 10
7/20/2015 15:57:27   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I have updated plasma grenade to do less base damage and have slightly weaker scaling but in response the damage bonus from lower energy increases so now it has a prerequisite to be particularly useful and will be somewhat weak when the opponent has larger amounts of energy, thus creating a match against CHs where having high energy in your pool is a priority to avoid taking heavy hits.
Epic  Post #: 11
7/20/2015 18:06:34   
nowras
Member

The removal of stun is not necessary tbh

It wont change anything it will make the game worse cuz people are going to say bring back stuns like bring back passives and ill be one of them

just saying IF TESTERS WANT TO IMPLEMENT THIS IT WILL BE THE SAME PROBLEM AS PASSIVES

Font size reduced as anything larger than 3 is spam. ~Caststarter

< Message edited by Caststarter -- 7/21/2015 10:27:58 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
7/20/2015 18:45:30   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 How is it like passives? It is a one turn debuff that requires activation and costs energy. These also don't look as they will be so powerful to require nearly every build to have them.

Another thing penguin. Stun cores, will they stay as they are tied to a promo and activate so rarely
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 13
7/21/2015 8:55:12   
nowras
Member

U said the samething to boosters now 90% of level 40s who were playing during them want boosters to come back


@OWA This game shouldn't remove things anymore it should actually ADD things

The THE REMOVAL OF THINGS WILL ACTUALLY CAUSE ALOT OF PROBLEMS and the game can't handle more problems anymore.

Font size reduced as anything larger than 3 is spam. ~Caststarter

< Message edited by Caststarter -- 7/21/2015 10:27:32 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
7/21/2015 11:20:08   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 @Nowras considering the number of old forum thread that wanted boosters gone I would have to disagree with your statement of 90% of players who know what boosters are want them back. Boosters are already back in the form of Generator as well so your point is not on great legs already.

As for removing things causing problems the talk here is removing the strongest RNG factor in the game and replacing it with combos that work with every class no matter what instead of requiring same stat scaling synergy like the current versions
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 15
7/21/2015 14:24:14   
Satafou
Member

Generator and boosters are not the same thing. They may function similarly however generator itself isn't nearly as effective as boosters were. Not to mention you could hold up to 2 boosters per battle and only 1 use of generator per battle. Boosters also had the option of +25hp and +25 energy which could be mixed into multiple combinations without having to change your amour points to adapt to how you want your generator to be. I can assure you that not a single person who was actually active during the time period boosters were around would say that generator is an equivalent exchange for the removal of boosters.
Post #: 16
7/21/2015 14:39:36   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 Correct Boosters and generators are not the same but that is how they were brought back in the core system. Also the talk of boosters is a red herring so that conversation is no longer about stun changes if you wish to continue the talk of boosters and generator please create a new thread
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 17
7/21/2015 15:18:02   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Boosters were a detriment because the use of 2 boosters already cost more than winning a battle. Additionally, they allowed brainless patching up of shortcomings in a build and it was impossible to tell if someone even had boosters equipped. Buying and using them was a huge waste of time as well.

To go back on topic, stun cores should probably be changed because there is pretty much nothing more frustrating than to lose to a 3% stun. The stun guns however should stay as is since they are almost never used and it is the passive core which was promised and advertised on their release several years ago.
Epic  Post #: 18
7/21/2015 16:28:46   
nowras
Member

Well it's up to u guys if u dont want to listen to me

it's not my problem anyways. I'll not lose money or shut down my own game. u guys will do that not me :)
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
7/21/2015 18:46:09   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 Nowras please use facts when making statements like that. Currently that is just an opinion piece that can hardly be debated and it doesn't add anything to the conversation.

As it stands the only thing you've added is that is stuns are removed people will want them back. Everything else has been diverting from the topic on hand
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 20
7/21/2015 18:56:23   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 To be honest I have no reason to listen to people who don't explain any of their thoughts. There's no point saying anything if it doesn't contribute to the discussion.

And if it isn't your problem why are you wasting your time on the forums.
Epic  Post #: 21
7/21/2015 20:10:28   
Mother1
Member

For the overload one it seems a bit sketchy to be honest. Let's say my opponent uses overload on me and then the next turn I get attacked and I manage to deflect. Not only will they be getting more damage but also more rage as well.

While I know rage is supposed to be a perk for a deflection or block in this case the rage gain should be reduced to compensate for the extra damage gained due to less of the damage being removed.
Epic  Post #: 22
7/21/2015 23:04:00   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @mother

I don't agree since rage and damage work in a contrasting relationship but the rage will never be enough to fully compensate for the damage blocked. The formula stays the same so the reduced deflection damage will factor into rage gain and a deflected move after overload will give less rage than a normal deflected attack
Epic  Post #: 23
7/22/2015 10:22:20   
Mother1
Member

@ exploding penguin

That was what I was suggesting in the first place. When this effect was active less extra rage would be given seeing as more of the attack would go through. I never asked for the formula to be change for everything just for when this effect is active.
Epic  Post #: 24
7/23/2015 18:34:49   
Dj Pizza
Member

Well thought. Definitively Supported. This would add some never-before seen interactions between players and skills. Also fits every classes's themes like a charm in my opinion ^
Post #: 25
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