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underdog removal

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11/12/2015 20:52:15   
dfo99
Member
 

 it is really forcing the high rank players or anyone just above avg quit ed
Post #: 1
11/14/2015 3:29:05   
shadow.bane
Member

exactly ! high ranks spend time and money to get more powerful while underdog get extra states damage and rng while doing nothing but just complaining :/
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
11/14/2015 15:11:41   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I'm not saying that underdog is a good thing, but the reasoning I'm seeing here is:

"I've spent a lot of time playing the game and therefore I deserve to have an unfair advantage in a battle in a competitive PvP game against other players who simply haven't dumped more of their life into this game"

IMO that's not how competitive PvP games work. The only real benefit you should get from having more playtime in the game is being more skilled. ED should probably come up with more ways to show that players who are a lot more skilled have a lot more room for outplaying their opponent though because in the current energy meta that isn't as big a thing as it was in previous phases.
Epic  Post #: 3
11/17/2015 7:48:40   
dfo99
Member
 

 the wrong part in this argument is the "unfair" term. where is the explanation of why it is unfair? also it is fair in my point of view which i say i other thread.
Post #: 4
11/17/2015 9:31:35   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 @Shadow.bane at level 5 Underdog mode grants +3 stats across the board. Here is how that impacts RNG using two of my characters that are conveniently 5 levels apart. Unfortunately I cannot show you the character page for the second one because that is my private character but here is OWA's setup. OWA is the high character as I just started the private one recently

Block:
Low w/o Underdog = 2.6% = 3%
Low w/Underdog = 3.2% = 3%
High w/o Underdog = 13.4% = 13%
High w/ Underdog = 12.8% = 13%

Crit:
Low w/o = 3.86% = 4%
Low w/ = 4.26% = 4%
High w/o = 4.13% = 4%
High w/ = 3.73% = 4%

Deflect:
Low w/o = 4.6% = 5%
Low w/ = 5.2% = 5%
High w/o = 15.4% = 15%
High w/ = 14.8% = 15%

Stun:
Low w/o = 24.75% = 25%
Low w/ = 25.5% = 26%*
High w/o = 25.25% = 25%
High w/ = 24.5% = 25%

Underdog V gives no change to RNG in this example as stun chance cannot go above the base stun chance which is 25% on most skills. Here is the extreme case in two identical builds where one gets Underdog V. Because they are identical their chance without underdog is the base percent

Block:
Base = 8%
Low w/ = 8.6% = 9%
High w/=7.4% = 7%

Crit:
Base = 4%
Low w/ = 4.4% = 4%
High w/ = 3.6% = 4%

Deflect:
Base = 10%
Low w/ = 10.6% = 11%
High w/ = 9.4% = 9%

Stun:
Base = 25%
Low w/ = 25.75% = 26%*
High w/= 24.25% = 24%

In the most extreme case you will find in a 1v1 you are looking at a change of 1% either as an increase for the underdog or a decrease to the high level/rank. It is worth noting that even a one point difference in stats is enough to remove the 1% increase or decrease from the extreme case
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
11/17/2015 10:32:48   
dfo99
Member
 

 from you above post i don't understand the diference between low and high and i don't know from where you get those base stats. anyway lower levels have the first strike rng higher

i frequently get the dudes with 5+ of everything because i have the rank 75, and 20 stats points values 250 of hp, it is like the guy get a health booster for free at the game start.
Post #: 6
11/17/2015 10:38:51   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 Low is the low level or rank and high is the high level or rank. Obviously someone five levels below you would have a higher first strike chance that was a change made many years ago so I didn't feel a need to show that chance.

Base stats come from plugging a difference of 0 in the formulas for those like deflect is 10 + technology advantage/5 so if the advantage is 0 then deflect is 10%.

As for you getting +5's that is underdog IX which I think is only possible in 2v2 unless I missed some change to the 1v1 match making system

Edit: I've been looking at the wrong number as per usual. Just do the dex or tech bonus from underdog / 5 to find out the block and deflect RNG change.

Support / 7.5 is crit RNG change

Underdog X gives 1.2% block and deflect while giving .66% crit

< Message edited by One Winged Angel1357 -- 11/17/2015 11:10:58 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
11/17/2015 16:26:38   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 So after people get their high ranks after abusing underdog mode, now you decide it's unfair? Wow, I thought the community was better than this. Seems like everyones out for themselves, that might be why the games in its current state.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 8
11/17/2015 23:13:19   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Unfair as in getting free stats? A guy with 20 legendary ranks vs. a guy with 0 legendary ranks is obviously unfair because the guy with 20 ranks just downright has higher stats than the one with no ranks.
Epic  Post #: 9
11/18/2015 20:31:49   
dfo99
Member
 

 it is like say that a guy who work harder deserve same wage of the one who don't even care about the job.
Post #: 10
11/18/2015 20:44:12   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

ikr
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
11/18/2015 22:13:35   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 From NW the last time this was brought up, along with other suggestions for increasing the advantage of ranked players:

quote:

I'm not sure what the OP is getting at. EpicDuel would be like chess if there were only one class and everyone had access to the same skillset. ED has asymmetrical balance which, while being more interesting (to me, anyway) it's much harder to manage. Chess players are ranked so a newb doesn't play a grand master. In ED, sometimes a high-level player will match with a lower level, but we don't want the lower level discouraged from playing ever again -- hence the Underdog core. Not all fights can be "fair", but they should at least be competitive. No player should have a magic win button that destroys everyone, because although it sounds awesome, it would get old after awhile.

Legendary ranks and perks can be adjusted over time as balance trends change.


In other words, removing underdog and other methods of increasing PvP rank advantage are not supported i.e. will not be considered and it is pointless to continue pushing for this idea. Balance trends have not changed such that this idea is justified from a balance perspective. There is also no evidence that underdog mode is overpowered as ranks are objectively and mathematically superior.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/18/2015 22:15:55 >
Post #: 12
11/19/2015 0:32:48   
dfo99
Member
 

 it is a nw reply to my thread about leg revamp, i send a reply showing how senseless is this concept of leg ranks and he never reply again.
Post #: 13
11/19/2015 0:50:59   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator
quote:

it is like say that a guy who work harder deserve same wage of the one who don't even care about the job.


Yeah which is exactly what I'm saying. From what I said earlier:

quote:

The only real benefit you should get from having more playtime in the game is being more skilled. ED should probably come up with more ways to show that players who are a lot more skilled have a lot more room for outplaying their opponent though because in the current energy meta that isn't as big a thing as it was in previous phases.


Working harder =/= working more. It is not a surprise that a lot of people hold the same job for 10+ years, don't necessarily get better at what they're doing, and thus never get a promotion or more than a very minor pay raise (which is pretty much only given as accountability for holding onto the job for such a long time). Yet, it is very possible for someone who started off in the same position to get promoted several times and earn much higher pay over a span of 3 years instead.

Epic  Post #: 14
11/19/2015 6:59:28   
  Battle Elf
has ten 1v1 wins


 SSM has already mentioned why the underdog feature will not be removed.

From NW:
quote:

I'm not sure what the OP is getting at. EpicDuel would be like chess if there were only one class and everyone had access to the same skillset. ED has asymmetrical balance which, while being more interesting (to me, anyway) it's much harder to manage. Chess players are ranked so a newb doesn't play a grand master. In ED, sometimes a high-level player will match with a lower level, but we don't want the lower level discouraged from playing ever again -- hence the Underdog core. Not all fights can be "fair", but they should at least be competitive. No player should have a magic win button that destroys everyone, because although it sounds awesome, it would get old after awhile.

Legendary ranks and perks can be adjusted over time as balance trends change.


Locking up.
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
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