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A potential reason to hide builds

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4/28/2016 2:32:10   
Scott Reese
Member

Yes, I know what you're thinking. This is a suggestion as old as the game itself and always met with the same responses (fair ones, I might add, given WHY the idea was always suggested).

This is more of a brainstorm on whether or not there is a game mechanic to be found in only showing builds in battle. Could there be a way to add a 'spying' component to the game and make it more strategic? The goal isn't to hide builds from prying eyes, but to make the act of looking at them even more beneficial for the player. We are already able to do this to such an extent that I almost feel it gets taken for granted how important it can be to take that first look before acting.

The image in my mind was of an option that would reveal specific traits about the character or maybe just the whole build. First thought was a permanent option, like Strike and which would also take a round to do. Or maybe a passive skill on the tree that would reveal more traits with more skill points devoted to it.... although I would understand why that would not be considered at this time. Or a generic core or set of cores.

Quality of intel could also vary and have contextual bonuses, from just opening up the whole thing to choosing specific traits to spy on. Say I choose to look at my opponents Dex/Defense scores and get a bonus of some sort on the next turn that helps me hurt the target a little more.

There was also an older thread about a separate mode for 'blind fighting'. I know a new mode wouldn't be feasible due to insufficient player base, but would options for how a player enters the current modes work? Like voluntarily going in blind using a simple check box below the battle buttons; if the player can win without looking, there is an appropriate form of compensation.

Thoughts?
Epic  Post #: 1
4/28/2016 3:06:58   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Could be really interesting if it's a voluntary form of battling. Supported because it would be a neat feature to have.

Makes me think of Hearthstone a lot actually. In that game you don't get to see your opponent's decklist so you just have to kind of guess what they're going to run based off of the first few cards they play (most decks can be identified by the first few cards unless their draws are horrid). And actually a lot of the thinking and differentiating in skill levels between players is from reading your opponent's deck since you're blind to it, and predicting what they have (IE if they have a dead card in their hand that they're holding onto for several turns, it is very possibly a spell of some kind that they haven't found the opportune moment to play it in. You can make a pretty accurate conjecture as to what that dead card is and how to play around it so it doesn't lose you the match).

Even if the playerbase were to become a lot larger again, I don't know if this game mode would still be viable though. Given how 2-dimensional the battle system is in ED, there's a ton of hard counter matchups that are heavily in favor of one side or another, and the only hope for winning is really just formulated counterplay. Not being able to see your opponent's build could really make this difficult and kind of remove most of the tactics behind the game aside from some sense of adaptability.

But, this topic of Hearthstone that I've brought up actually has caused me to think of a new suggestion, so I'll go and make a new thread for that now.
Epic  Post #: 2
4/28/2016 3:31:23   
Xendran
Member

Hiding builds is something i would expect any new form of epicduel to definitely have. It really is a defining factor of turn based PVP, figuring out your opponents strategy and adapting on the fly.
That's part of what prevents builds from getting stale, and can allow surprising builds to be successful by tricking your opponent into thinking you're going to do one thing, having them pre-emptively counter with a shield or something, then do something that doesnt care about what they just did basically wasting their turn.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 4/28/2016 3:32:01 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 3
4/29/2016 2:29:21   
Scott Reese
Member

quote:

Given how 2-dimensional the battle system is in ED, there's a ton of hard counter matchups that are heavily in favor of one side or another, and the only hope for winning is really just formulated counterplay. Not being able to see your opponent's build could really make this difficult and kind of remove most of the tactics behind the game aside from some sense of adaptability.


Well, this is a pretty big factor to consider. Analyzing my opponent becomes even more crucial when I'm on the wrong end of one of those one sided matches, so it would be frustrating if that was removed altogether. But try not to think of this as a way to keep players from seeing a build, but rather as a way to entice the player into learning all they can about that build. Everything someone could see now would still be visible, provided you make the strategic choice to look at it. The means by which they take that look could be tailored to suit the need for really formulated gameplay against tougher opponents, like you mentioned. Maybe build info could be provided as a bonus to the heavily disadvantaged player in the same general way Underdog works?

That's why passive skills.... well nevermind. That's why cores, active or passive, could serve the role of opening up the build for you and even retain their current bonus (like deflection or block chance in the case of passives) so no one feels like they have to 'waste' valuable core slots on something that doesn't give an obvious immediate benefit. Another assumption I'm making is that cores could be edited easily enough to do this.

What if there was an automatic freebie to start the match with? Do the same as you would now and click on their build, only now you get a small readout that displays their highest skill and its level, their highest equipment based damage, or their defense/resistance score (or some combination of two, or just all three of them). Something that gives the basics most people need to begin formulating a counter, while the rest they would tend to learn from their opponents play style anyway.

quote:

can allow surprising builds to be successful by tricking your opponent into thinking you're going to do one thing, having them pre-emptively counter with a shield or something, then do something that doesnt care about what they just did basically wasting their turn.


This is the tactical shift I think would be really cool to see the game swing toward as long as the current integrity of the dueling mechanics wasn't harmed. Wouldn't want people to rage quit because they feel they have no way of finding out why exactly they get trounced by someone over and over. A good system would give them the means of finding out what they need to know, but still allow for guile and deceptive strategy. Such a system could also allow them to eventually find out why deceptive and wily builds work, too.

< Message edited by Scott Reese -- 4/29/2016 3:01:22 >
Epic  Post #: 4
4/29/2016 6:09:13   
Front45
Member


 well I say no. and i have reasons

1. if you copy someone's build, it don't matter, because everyone playing with different strategy
2. i am play often 2 vs 2 and i need to see my partner's build or enemies builds for watch their power and weakness

but example me, i never copy builds. i have mine always, maybe it is near to someone's, but i don't have exactly 100% everything. i don't like copy builds

i don't know, maybe it will be more interesting if you will not see your enemy's build in 1 vs 1, but i don't think, that it will be better

but example 2 vs 2 you must know enemies and partner's build for play
Post #: 5
4/29/2016 9:02:34   
goldslayer1
Member

This is something I've suggested (hiding builds) before.
My biggest reason for it was build copying.
To give you probably my biggest example, It was right when the Delta Phase was released and we got the 3 new classes.
The big up and coming flavor of the month was expected to be Tactical Merc, due to it having Reroute and Hybrid Armor in the same skill tree. (It was shown prior to release)
A lot of people went Tactical Merc during that first day. And everyone was trying out heal looping builds. Back then frenzy was at its strongest point, and I believe Field Medic still improved from support. While everyone was trying out heal looping builds, I went with a strength build instead. Shared the build with some faction mates (I provided builds for members of my faction) and eventually got the daily for that day.
The next day a ton of TLMs were using strength merc. Players tend to copy those who get on daily LBs and all-time LBs, and the faction (Control Alt Death) had quite a few in the all-time and daily LBs.

This would actually IMO promote factions as well. Tactical Superiority would be a thing among factions. Imagine if a player makes a good build, and decides to share it with his faction and only they can see it? This would've certainty made competitive landscape a lot different for factions.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/29/2016 14:22:55 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
4/29/2016 10:19:15   
Altador987
Member

If we were to show just defense and resistance but differentiate the armor (example: 320 +80 Def 400+30 Res), then i think this idea could work. Maybe only show the damage range of the weapons so you can make an educated guess to strength and support... you wouldn't need to know their highest stat/skill as you can probably guess but the probability would make the game a little more interesting. Players would complain less about Block/Deflect/Crit chance seeing as they aren't for certain just how "deserving" of whatever "luck" might befall them. It would certainly give the debuff and buff skills more value as well seeing as you wouldn't know exactly how strong a buff or debuff was: meaning that my malf might only take 20 at lvl1 but you have no idea and use a shield to be on the safe side, which of course costs mp. I like the small gamble factor that it adds. Supported
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
4/29/2016 14:01:54   
Scott Reese
Member

Well for this suggestion, I couldn't care less about build copying because I faced facts long ago. That is, people are going to copy builds in this battle system, and it doesn't hurt the game as much as other people say it does. It mostly irritates them and then they get over it. Some of the fun of the game is in coming up with counters for those popular builds.

quote:

i am play often 2 vs 2 and i need to see my partner's build or enemies builds for watch their power and weakness


Correct. That's why this suggestion isn't to keep you from seeing a build. It's to make knowledge you gain of their build a more strategic factor by changing HOW you look at it. So, I would want to see a system where all the build info is available and nothing is permanently hidden. It just isn't as available as the current 'all at once' free look.

< Message edited by Scott Reese -- 4/29/2016 14:03:09 >
Epic  Post #: 8
4/29/2016 23:48:34   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 I've tried suggesting this but players weren't fond of it. I like your idea tho, I do support it.

My original idea was to hide stats and just show Primary, Sidearm, Auxiliary and Robot Damage along with Def/Resistance and Skills that would be color coded based on the amount of points invested in them (1-3=Green, 4-6=Yellow 7-M=Red). Totally fair still
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 9
4/30/2016 1:13:14   
Scott Reese
Member

Yes that might be a good way of doing it too. That color coding would indicate what you need to look out for in general, without knowing exactly what moves they'll be using when they come after you. So you'll be able to initially understand their strengths and weaknesses, but still have the need to do some more spying or battle a few times before their whole strategy became transparent. I think we'd still reach the point where you know instinctively what kind of opponent you are up against, the way it is now (down to being able to duplicate their build yourself in short order). I also don't think battles would necessarily have to become slower or more drawn either, with a good system.

What about a few more skills related specifically to info gathering? If the 'hidden builds' idea proved workable, balanced, and fun then a whole new set of possibilities opens up for expanding the skill tree.

Another thought is that this would be a lot easier to experiment with if the Featured Game Modes option became a reality.
Epic  Post #: 10
4/30/2016 8:28:28   
8x
Member

Here is an example image, from when I tried to suggest this. http://i.imgur.com/DXrAb55.png
Epic  Post #: 11
4/30/2016 14:58:10   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 when I suggested it nearly everyone was against it, even some testers, claiming that builds are shown to help other players out. what they fail to notice is that showing builds only decreases variety and drastically speeds up progression to the point where we can't even use/enjoy a good build anymore for a while because the second someone sees it's effective, it goes viral.

by hiding builds, players would have an idea of what your stats are but not the exact stats, hence only encouraging the player that's trying to copy to make something like the original build, or even something better.

theres no reason why stats, other than the ones 8x has listed in his image, have to be shown when the ratio of your defense and resistance while taking into account ones hp and bot strength (hence indicating focus) will give you an idea of what your opponents packing.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
4/30/2016 15:13:21   
Scott Reese
Member

I think you hit the nail on the head. Looking freely at builds gives us a lightning fast progression to endgame style tactics, things you will eventually learn anyway. Slowing down progression in this aspect of the game could actually make the almighty grind up to the level cap a more fun experience. Balance would, as always, need to be considered. A system where you have to devote a little extra effort to learning what the build looks like wouldn't necessarily eliminate or diminish the endgame choices.

Plus, if everyone utilizes the same methods to get info in a hidden build version, wouldn't the change be to the game's learning curve and not it's balance?
Epic  Post #: 13
4/30/2016 16:26:03   
Mother1
Member

I remember this sugesstion being made so many times in the past and many players as well as the staff themselves vetoed it due to the following reasons.

1) Fighting blind would remove from the planning which is what the game is about planning and making the right moves.

2) Players who are having trouble finding good builds they like can find them seeing as other players are using them and won't possibly end up quitting due to losing due to this.

While #2 I disagree with (seeing as build copying is the main reason why he have so many sheep builds instead of unique ones) Reason #1 I can agree with.

While both players are blind due to not knowing what to do, they will be taking swings in the dark until they figure out what their opponent is using which in turn could end up being too late. So while it has it's ups there are also the downs, but the real question here is do the pro's outweight the con's?

On another note here is another issue.

The game is owned by AE and who does AE aim their games for? Answer Kids. Originally the game before being owned by AE was aimed at Teens and adults where something like this would be an excellent idea, but when the game is aimed at kids (most of which don't like these kinds of things) it would be an issue.

Personally I am torn due to both the pro's and cons. On the one hand I like the idea of not having my hard work easilly copied without my permission due to players who need a build looking for one. However at the same time losing due to fighting blind (seeing as builds are hidden) would end up making the game more luck based which is something the masses have been ticked with for the longest due it costing them wins.



< Message edited by Mother1 -- 4/30/2016 16:30:28 >
Epic  Post #: 14
5/1/2016 3:38:32   
Xendran
Member

quote:

1) Fighting blind would remove from the planning which is what the game is about planning and making the right moves.


I'd argue it increases planning.
It's like a card game, you don't get to see your opponents deck. Part of the strategy is learning from your opponent and adjusting and planning accordingly. There's only so many possible combinations of things people can do to make a good build so once they start taking turns you can start playing around what you expect.

You plan an opener, and if your opponent does something dangerous or prevents your opener you react accordingly like normal. Based on what they just did you're getting an idea of what they're doing and it hasn't had much impact on your first turn.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 5/1/2016 3:39:41 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 15
5/1/2016 3:46:19   
Scott Reese
Member

I'm aware that to simply hide builds wily nily and be done with it wouldn't do any favors for the game, Mother1. It would be pretty annoying and little else, actually.

Remember that the suggestion is not to "hide" the build, but to make the act of looking at it a more intrinsic game mechanic. No one needs to driven to frustration due to builds being a mystery; that's completely not the spirit of this brainstorming attempt. I want people looking at builds, even copying them if that's what they think they have to do. I want planning your moves to be even more important than ever.

The difference being suggested is that, in battle, gathering intel on your enemy will be an important part that dovetails with doing damage effectively. Because if you go in recklessly, you really WILL be at the mercy of luck. We see what happens with players who are that reckless now: they either learn, or they decide they don't like the game. And someone in the latter boat isn't going to be convinced, not because it's "too hard" but because they don't really want to put the effort into learning.

That's why you shouldn't sell the young people short. Children learn more quickly than adults because they have fewer preconceived ideas about the world. They're more adaptable and downright wily, when they are engaged and interested in the subject at hand. We know Epic Duel can be very engaging, so give them an interesting way to spy on each others builds, because its actually a way to learn the mechanics of the game a little better and will reward them for the knowledge they gain. I have the feeling that providing just a little bit of a solvable mystery will build enthusiasm, not frustration.
Epic  Post #: 16
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