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Balance is hard, but maybe not impossible

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7/2/2016 16:43:58   
Stonehawk
Member

The game currently works in a way some builds are dominating the game, killing the fun of creating unique builds and still having a chance to win.

I just think the game would've reached balance for real when stats were like this, for example:

Dexterity > Strength
Strength > Tech
Tech > Support
Support > Dexterity

What does that means? Each stat would have a high advantage against another stat, just like one element beat another in Adventure Quest. In other words, if you abused tech, for example, support would have very low chance to win, but strength would beat you for sure.

How to do it? I don't know for sure. Maybe giving different effects to each stats, for example:

Dexterity: Increases a lot in the chance to block for higher dexterity, without a limit, but takes more damage from rage and crits and deflecting chance is decreased a bit
Strength: Does even higher damage and rages and crits are stronger, but RARELY crits and rage bar is REALLY SLOW to fill, and decreases chance to hit and block if increased too much. Against dexterity abusers, no chance if you only have strength.
Tech: Takes lower damage on rages and crits, increases chance to deflect a lot but decreases chance to block a bit.
Support: Rages faster and crits a lot more frequently, but not ignoring so much defenses as it does.


Seems a bit confusing, but to make thing easier, I think that each stat should give high advantages against another stat, but give a bit of disadvantage against another, making people search for balance so that they won't be beaten against their weakness so much. This would improve creativity somehow. To make things clearer, it works as if each 100 dexterity increases a lot of blocking chance, but decreases the deflecting chance of 20 technology, and vice-versa. (It would be a solution for technician, where dex builds would have a bit less chance to block while it is activated).

EDIT: And maybe if chance to block, crit, deflect, rage filling rate and stuff were shown as you're increasing or decreasing each stat, people would see what they're doing and how to build its character depending on the cores they have and so.

Posts merged, please don't double post. ~WhiteTiger

< Message edited by WhiteTiger -- 7/2/2016 17:28:37 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
7/2/2016 18:27:49   
Satafou
Member

quote:

How to do it? I don't know for sure



Not supported sorry, if you aren't even entirely confident in your own idea you can't expect other people to be.

Also all of your so-called different effects mostly already exist. Not to mention dex already counters str (increased blocks for strike/melee skills), tech already counters support (high deflection rate against aux's) Support could be seen as countering dex already as dex abusive builds tend to neglect tech stats i.e less chance of aux deflects.

In other words this idea is quite pointless as it basically already exists within the game...
Post #: 2
7/3/2016 0:04:59   
dfo99
Member
 

 someone who thinks that the way to define if an idea is good or bad is how confident is the proposer instead logic arguments, is clearly an idiot
Post #: 3
7/3/2016 4:20:52   
Satafou
Member

@dfo99 This suggestion is utterly pointless, as it mostly already exists. For the OP to not even be sure how his own suggestion will work never mind be unaware that it for the whole already exists is someone who shouldn't be suggesting anything on these forums.

Also if you bothered to read more than the first sentence of my post you'd find i happen to give an explanation about the suggestion itself, excluding the fact the OP doesn't even know how his suggestion works.

P.S. Much like this suggestion, your post is useless and contributes to nothing.
Post #: 4
7/3/2016 5:32:29   
Altador987
Member

@satafou your overly sarcastic (and extremely flawed) points weren't necessary nor were they valid... actually they were just rude even if you did feel what he suggested already existed (extremely debatable) telling him his idea was pointless was redundant and out of line

to get back on topic:
supported i think this idea allows for matches to have a lot more fun at the very least and you get to see the fruits of your stats. Currently I'd say str builds get the most of their "abuse" as clearly they have attack power but they also gain rage waaay too fast simply because an opponent has defense which defeats the purpose if they always rage after 3-4 hits. Personally though i'm not a HUGE fan of support builds i always thought f5 builds got more unwarranted crits than anyone else. If this were implemented hey'd certainly have to make sure it was consistent though. I dont think strength users should be underpowered against dex users i think that's a liiil too far. Otherwise I'd love to see this really implemented as it should be
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
7/3/2016 5:56:54   
Satafou
Member

@Altador987 Please enlighten me if you'd be so kind as to how this suggestion isn't pointless. Everything that has been suggested already exists in the game. The only point in this suggestion that isn't already in game is the
quote:

blocks without limit
which is for a good reason.

< Message edited by Satafou -- 7/3/2016 5:59:27 >
Post #: 6
7/3/2016 10:50:20   
nowras
Member

Not supported. It would completely destroy the game and you will find focus builds more often because they will counter everyone else since they have all their stats close to each other. Sorry but, your change would wreck the game and reduce diversity.
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
7/3/2016 21:04:43   
Altador987
Member

@Satafou enlightenment requires an open-mind however i'll give you the benefit of the doubt

This will basically be an argument of opinion but the understood notion in the OP is that the system put into place does not work (of course this is regarding builds and block/deflection/crit frequency) in my personal opinion works inconsistently to the point where certain builds work well against builds that should put them at a disadvantage and vice versa. I know for a fact dex builds do not have an advantage over str builds seeing blocks are pretty rare regardless of dex, I've also noticed those same str builds receive rage faster than all but support builds which is silly as most have no supp in their build. I see f5 builds crit consecutively more than supp builds. From what i gather in the OP the idea is to simply add on to the fun, see a lil more crits, have a lil more blocks, same with deflects, hopefully give all builds a fighting chance. I can't understand how you see this as pointless, he wasn't stating that he had come up with some genius new idea, he was simply editing upon what already exists... otherwise i'm pretty sure he wouldn't have stated it...

@nowras
I feel like that could be edited to where focus builds receive something but also lose something in return based on stat usage, maybe their bot damage would be more substantial while everything else would be much less... idk the specifics but i don't see why that can't be accounted for, not to mention the game is already pretty wrecked in the diversity avenue
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
7/3/2016 21:51:08   
Satafou
Member

@Altador987 Are you seriously trying to tell me that you
quote:

know for a fact dex builds do not have an advantage over str builds seeing blocks are pretty rare regardless of dex
as well as
quote:

f5 builds crit consecutively more than supp builds.


Not only do you lack proof of any kind, anyone using common knowledge can clearly see that your previously mentioned claims are completely ludicrous.

< Message edited by Satafou -- 7/3/2016 21:52:15 >
Post #: 9
7/3/2016 22:54:12   
Altador987
Member

... yes...hence why i stated it... i don't need proof... i based my statements on experience... that was the proof if any... and even still, "i don't support this i feel like this already exists" would've sufficed, the overly sarcastic and classless statements were rather unnecessary.
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
7/4/2016 7:16:17   
Satafou
Member

Now you do a false quote? I never once said i "feel". Your experience is one dimensional, extremely bias and exaggerated. I hope everyone observing this can see what these forums have come to, players using their own "experience" to come to conclusions about balance, no wonder this game has gone so downhill.
Post #: 11
7/4/2016 10:12:48   
Altador987
Member

... you're not very bright are you? I'll try to explain my previous statement as simple as possible for you to comprehend: What you originally replied with was rude and out of line all you had to do was say "I don't support this I feel like this already exists" and leave your argument at that. You could've added why and how you felt those reasons but at the very least that was all that was required. Furthermore you're making a lot of claims here: my experience is one dimensional, extremely biased and exaggerated. That is your opinion. Just as you based your argument on your bias and experience. If the game went downhill due to player discussion on a forum the game was doomed from the start as that's a whole set of problems in itself. It's a shame you have such high opinions of your own ignorance with no real backing or class. But I'll end this pointless argument here as I've already stated what i needed to say to both the OP and yourself.
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
7/4/2016 10:33:43   
Satafou
Member

It's amazing how hypocrites seems to think their opinion is adequate to a fact without anything to back their claims up. Firstly, why on earth would i say "i feel like this already exists"? I clearly don't "feel" it exists, it does already exist. That isn't my opinion, it is a fact. Where's my proof? The descriptions of each stat in game.

I do not have to add my own opinion. Why? Simply put it's how the game works, if i was to add my opinion into this matter my argument would lose it's credibility, much like your own.

Your argument is "one dimensional, extremely biased and exaggerated" due to the fact you have no proof of any kind to back up your ridiculous claims of the following two statements:
quote:

i know for a fact dex builds do not have an advantage over str builds seeing blocks are pretty rare regardless of dex


quote:

f5 builds crit consecutively more than supp builds.



You talk about class yet you go against your very own morals of having apparent class, by doing a very poorly thought out attempt of trying to degrade and insult fellow forum users.
quote:

... you're not very bright are you? I'll try to explain my previous statement as simple as possible for you to comprehend:


This game hasn't gone downhill due to discussion, it's gone downhill because many users on these forums seem to think their first hand experience is the laws of how this game works. If you're unable to see the game as a whole in a neutral point of view you shouldn't even be writing on these forums, which sadly many forum users in this game's community still do.

< Message edited by Satafou -- 7/4/2016 10:35:55 >
Post #: 13
7/4/2016 10:54:26   
Altador987
Member

lol well i guess i lied cause i'm bored and in an intellectually sadistic mood

1. My statement of your intellect wasn't an attack it was very much a serious question, though you seem to have answered it indirectly, you seem to lack reading comprehension (which is extremely necessary when it comes to forums)
2. your argument has no credibility to lose as it had none to begin with
3. Just because the game is SUPPOSED to work a certain way doesn't mean it does that's been very clear when looking at balance problems in general
4. your statements are purely opinion, the understood logic is that it is your opinion that the way stats and builds work is functioning properly, the understood logic for the OP is that it does not... hence why he posted, not sure how you can't see that, but to each his own
5. do you even have a point? at all? you don't support the idea for whatever ludicrous reasons you originally stated but what exactly are you arguing now other than you feel i have no credibility, if experience wasn't a credible source then ED would never have problems... and we wouldn't have a section listed specifically for bugs which is BASED ON PLAYER EXPERIENCE lmfao
6. i wasn't actually stating my opinion on why the game has gone downhill (seriously... get some reading comprehension skills)
7. If nowras could argue that the idea would negatively affect the game then we can make an educated guess that therefore the idea is not already in existence otherwise there'd be no change at all... in other words the fact that someone else could see a result of the game disproves your theory

Gotta admit i'm havin fun now
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
7/4/2016 11:58:16   
Satafou
Member

1. Question or not, even when you choose to twist the context it still comes across as an attack, lol.
2. Please elaborate why my argument has no credibility, if you state baloney without anything to back up your claims no one will take you seriously, both online and in real life.
3. It has been stated on uncountable occasions that the game does function the way it should. Yes there is battles where the RNG seems very unreasonable, however throughout multiple battles it does even out.
4. My argument isn't opinion, it is facts. I have shown you evidence to prove that they are indeed facts and not my own opinion, something you still after several posts haven't done.
5. Experience is a way of gaining information about balance affairs, however it has to be from a valid source. A player who most likely has a poor win ratio with a low win count judging purely from your argument thus far, please feel free to prove me wrong on that matter. Reporting things such as in game bugs is something anyone can do, however matters of balance should largely be discussed between forum users who know the very basics of this game i.e dex does in fact grant a higher block chance and support does in fact grant a higher crit chance, throughout this entire post it would appear you mistaken as to how each of the 4 stats in this game work.
6. I'm quite aware, i was just further elaborating on my own point of the forums leading this game downhill and stating why this game wouldn't go "downhill from discussion". I'm sorry that i couldn't put it into more simplistic terms.
7. I haven't argued that this idea would negatively affect this game due to the fact it's practically already in the game and has been since the alpha era. The only part of this suggestion that isn't already implemented is the "blocks without limit" which again, there is a good reason that it isn't implemented, i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you can figure out why that is the case.

Also what i am arguing isn't a theory or an opinion, it an argument about the fact this suggestion is already in the game and as a result pointless. The only point this suggestion has that isn't already in game is the
quote:

blocks without limit
Post #: 15
7/4/2016 13:56:56   
Altador987
Member

you havent actually shown anything you just stated the descriptions of each stat in the game was said proof which doesn't say much. honestly at this rate this will continue to around in circles as for some reason whether on my part or yours the point isn't being conveyed and it's become arguments over silly silly schematics and technicalities that are pushing the discussion off topic. I'll simply have to disagree with your original point of "it already exists", ask that you not be so rude in conveying such in the future, and leave my standpoint as: supported assuming blocks were edited and f5 had some way of keeping it's uniqueness without being the standard for receiving all of the aforementioned qualities frequently
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
7/4/2016 14:06:55   
Satafou
Member

The descriptions of stats are proof as that is what they are designed to do. I can assure you and the devs will confirm this, that the descriptions of stats are accurate. Whether you like to admit it or not, this suggestion in whole is undeniably already implemented in this game.

Hasta la vista :)
Post #: 17
7/4/2016 14:58:44   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 If the description of the stats are not enough the balance mechanics used by the game to calculate RNG are posted as a pinned thread in this very discussion board. If you are going to say those calculations are false you better have very documented tested beyond just your feelings as a player
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 18
7/4/2016 17:05:56   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

 RNG does feel off, its pretty mad crits seem far more prominent then blocks even in the current meta with far more dex builds about then support builds...

All ill contribute.

But this thread is quite accurate the OP that is , But the single biggest problem with balance is the matchmaking system it starts fights with opponents with astronomical level And/or rank differences......A game that actually starts fights that are over before they begin frequently, Its hard to have any confidence in a dev/moderator that looked at this games matchmaking system and said seems legit. It isn't even close to okay , Not close and this isn't a new problem its plagued the game since the beginning, Yes most games have issues with balance but simple matchmaking , I haven't come across another game this bad, Where it will start games frequently where one opponent has a absolutely massive advantage over the other , before a turn is taken.

< Message edited by leahnrachel -- 7/4/2016 22:50:36 >
Post #: 19
7/5/2016 3:06:15   
shadow.bane
Member

well believe it or not the game is more balanced then u thought but the only thing that is killing it is the unexpected and unexplained RNG aka luck factor like for example when all ur weapons on cooldown and now energy for skills a focus 5 player hit a kill strike for lets say a support user with basic dex and he blocked it and things like so!! so the game would be fixed if RNG is fixed and the massive difference between high/low damage and stuff like for example 2 people with same defense and same robot damage hit each other person 1 do 200 person 2 do 250 that's a massive difference which lead to turn the match around for no reason what so ever. it only need an NRG fix that's it.

That's only IMO idk about u guys

< Message edited by shadow.bane -- 7/5/2016 3:08:37 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 20
7/5/2016 12:45:57   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

 LOL the game isn't balanced at all

Their are unusable classes , classes vastly more powerful then others

Builds that can only be countered by the same build or luck .....

and the matchmaking is god awful......

The game has never seen balanced....
Post #: 21
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