RE: =AQW= Constructive Criticism of AQW Analysis: Quests, Activity Diversity, End-Game Items


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RE: =AQW= Constructive Criticism of AQW Analysis: Quests, Activity Diversity, End-Game Items

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1/24/2017 6:13:26

ExactName
Member

End game items should feel rewarding also, and for me, changing VHL to a single target doesn't feel rewarding at all. In it AoE it can solo(the same way as a single target) and the best in farming.

AQW	Post #: 51

1/24/2017 6:31:25

xstreamshadow
Member

Yeah, seems like more people are on my side

Anyway, if you only like the class armor( if you were to make that arguement) that's a 100% drop. And VHL is supposed to be on the same difficullty as BLoD, AoA, SDKA, maybe a little bit more than the 3 nulgath evolved orbs combined. Also, it's not like VHL is the only viable soloing clasa for free players. SC, shaman, cryomancer(maybe?) Are all great.

AQW	Post #: 52

1/24/2017 6:49:43

Christophoses
AQW Tester
&
Lore Adept

@Psych

quote:

Endgame is meant to be hard. If you don't want to farm it, then you don't get it. Simple.

Doing the same quest over and over again isn't hard. It's mundane. Simple.

The type of endgame items that I enjoy farming are the ones that have a 0.1% chance of dropping from a tanky boss that you need multiple people to beat. My preferences are different to yours. This doesn't make me lazy, it makes me human.

-------------------

@xstreamshadow

Honestly, I didn't know that Void Highlord was no longer an AoE class. If it were an OP version of Blaze Binder I would be disappointed that it's so far out of reach. Since this isn't the case, however, it doesn't diminish the gameplay experience by not having it.

I use LDK to solo everything and it works like a charm.

AQW

Post #: 53

1/24/2017 7:10:07

Sorawing7
Member

In response to the Twitter poll, you have to take into account that a huge population of players are casual and have not bothered to grind for the harder items in the game (ie. BLoD). If you had a similar poll during the time BLoD was released for example, either taking out the 50% buff to Undead or making the quest easier, the vast majority would also pick making the quest easier because, frankly, only a small population of the player base would be bothered to farm such an item in the first place. I also suspect that the same poll, posted here on the forums would have reciprocal results as this forum is more skewed towards the more dedicated players.

The recent release of classes like LightCaster and ShadowStalker of Time has made soloing a lot easier and largely redundant at this current point in time, while classes like Blaze Binder and Abyssal Angel, albeit good, but not on par with the new solo classes. When the new Nulgath farming class was announced (yes, it specifically said farming on the Design Notes), people were excited for the power creep in multi-target farming, and the test version did not disappoint. By removing the multi-target aspect from the class, you have put yourself in a tough situation where either way, you now will have no way to satisfy the entire player base whether you decide to go either route in changes to the acquisition and the class itself.

Honestly, I think that the worst possible move is to make the quest slightly easier, while keeping the class the same, as casual players wouldn't bother going for it, depending on the difficulty, furthering complaints, and now you have another "A-tier" soloing class which is largely not necessary to use over LC and SSoT, which the people who actually will go for would be complaining that it wasn't worth it.

I think Asuka's original offer to give the choice between solo and multi-target is the best way to go as it gives people incentive to farm for something worthwhile for at least the next year over another class which will probably be used occasionally, but isn't necessary. I also saw someone mention that they did not want the class to be multi-target because in a few months, it'll be the only class that people use. Obviously, that'll be true, for a few months anyways, but it will be the exact same situation as when Necromancer or Legion Doomknight was first released, it will be the go-to class for a couple months, until another class is made that overshadows VHL. That's been the way AQW has been going by ever since the mass release of classes: StoneCrusher > Arachnomancer > Archfiend, UOK > LDK > (bunch of slightly better classes) > Necromancer, BB > Chunin > TSS > OG Shaman. Also, class functions seem to be vastly different after server rewrite so who knows if VHL will even be good or not post-rewrite as it's another Luck-optimal class.

AQW	Post #: 54

1/24/2017 11:13:31

goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Doing the same quest over and over again isn't hard. It's mundane. Simple.

And adding needless clusterfudge chains upon chains of quests doesn't really add "diversity" or make it intriguing.

BloD IMO has a clusterfudge of messy quests. Anyone who tries to farm that without knowing squat about it ends up having a confusing time with it. It took me a few hours to figure out how the quest chain worked.

The Evo Orbs and AFDL have a better and simpler format for farming.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 55

1/24/2017 11:57:45

Christophoses
AQW Tester
&
Lore Adept

@above

The forum guide for these weapons are also quite confusing. Additionally, it leads players to believe that the best option is to follow the Mace Method, even though this is completely false.

AQW

Post #: 56

1/24/2017 12:07:20

ShadowMoon
Member

though the AFDL has way to many rng based items

AQW

Epic

Post #: 57

1/24/2017 12:13:57

Christophoses
AQW Tester
&
Lore Adept

@above

All Nulgath items have way too many RNG based items.

The hardest of quests should only consist of killing X monster X amount of times, with all items required and obtained having 100% drop rates. This whole "kill a monster for a chance to get the required quest item" concept is rather annoying. I, and I'm sure many other players, would rather kill a monster 100 times as opposed to killing a monster with a 5% chance at getting the required drop.

No one likes RNG. Plain and simple.

AQW

Post #: 58

1/24/2017 12:14:37

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

@Christophisis
I honestly can't tell if that was sarcasm, the Mace method is by far better than the dagger method (assuming reasonable RNG from the weapon kit quest).
I have done BLoD with and without the Mace (the non Mace method was only because i never got Copper), i know how long it takes to grind out that 1 Brilliant Aura with the daggers, it isn't fun when you start to realize that you do the fragment quest way more times than necessary, I was above 600 turn ins total, not because og bad luck on the Blinding Aura, but because I never got Copper.
Even if you get the Mace afterwards, you still need to do 125 turn ins of Daggers compared to 1 turn in of Mace for the same result.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 1/24/2017 12:15:15 >

AQW	Post #: 59

1/24/2017 12:18:26

Christophoses
AQW Tester
&
Lore Adept

@above

The Mace Method can either work 100% in your favor, or be the most head bashing process that you can imagine. Based on reliability, any other method is the best way to go.

AQW

Post #: 60

1/24/2017 12:24:54

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

The only time when you "choose" a method is when you choose between Daggers or Mace anyways. The route you take is based on the metals you get pretty much, the game kind of decides for you to a certain extent.
If you had both Copper and Aluminum + the orbs needed to craft the first Metal of Destiny, would you really choose the Dagges over Mace if you knew the pros and cons of each one? (125 turn ins vs a little bit of RNG).
I do agree that the Mace method is least consistent of the 2, but it's still on average, way better than Daggers.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 1/24/2017 12:25:17 >

AQW	Post #: 61

1/24/2017 12:38:21

goldslayer1
Member

I did the dagger method (Dagger, bow, and lastly mace) mostly because aluminum dropped first,
It only took me 5 days. Once you have all 3 weps, it only takes about 7 hours to get BloD reqs.
I still have the weps banked so ill probably be farming BloD again because ABloD is messed up with that 5% extra boost, also because of enhancements.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 62

1/24/2017 18:45:56

priest_hidan
Member

what's the point of "nulgath items" if you all want it to be just like other items? It's suppose to be painful...

AQW

Epic

Post #: 63

1/24/2017 21:29:38

Martin901
Member

Greetings all, I have an idea that can affect the missions as they are and would be linked to activity that players make while doing them.

I don't like to repeat information, so I'll give you a link (if you are interested you can read it):

Feature and Functionality Suggestions IV

Just read the part that speaks of the missions and if you want you can read the others, I think that this could have an effect positive in the game when it comes to missions, since it will not alter the difficulty of some missions, is clear only an idea.

I hope you like it.

AQW	Post #: 64

1/25/2017 10:55:11

Lathiel
Member

VHL is by no means an "extremely good class". I would go so far as to say that even Ultra Omniknight outclasses it. Let's not even talk about the actual good classes like Blaze Binder, Stonecrusher or Abyssal Angel, the last of these not even requiring ANY amount of farming at all.

As stated by many of my fellow players, you cannot punish the majority of players for things an extreme minority did - especially when Staff members like Dage himself congratulate a certain someone in that minority on using said glitch to obtain one million Legion Tokens, you know who you are.

Nobody says every farmable item has to be "end-game". Nobody says every Nulgath Nation item has to be stupidly hard or RNG-reliant to obtain. What happened to just being fair or reasonable? Have we all lost the right to fair treatment because of the aforementioned minority?

How can we keep going like this? How much longer can we deny that this approach just isn't right? How much longer do we have to voice our inner disappointment, our inner anger at this approach before it gets through?

How many more players have to permanently quit playing AQW before we take action?!

Post #: 65

1/25/2017 11:03:36

xstreamshadow
Member

Lanthiel, may i know how you got to the conclusion that UOK outclasses VHL? I have uok myself, so i know first hand UOK's capability.
Also, to refute your claims, no one says you have to get nulgath items, no one says you have to go for end game items.You can keep up just fine without things like BLoD, ENNH and SDKA.

It's not ideal but who is to say what AE does isn't right? You?

< Message edited by xstreamshadow -- 1/25/2017 11:07:46 >

AQW	Post #: 66

1/25/2017 11:20:48

cenarius345
Member

I brought this up over in the Difficulty Disparity thread, but I feel like it also deserves a mention here. The HP regen mechanic that they're adding to monsters in the new server is going to make the issues with grinding for items exponentially worse. With the current state of things on the testing servers, even the easier bosses that I don't see people complaining about (Ultra Akriloth, for example) are turning into impossible-to-solo stalemates where any damage you do to the boss is healed away within seconds. The combination of the absurd grind/RNG requirements for end-game items with the impossibility of soloing bosses and the natural trend away from old content is rapidly snowballing into an awful future for not only the players inclined to strive for these rare items, but also for new players who join one of the old areas and find it empty of players with an impossible boss blocking their way.

While I expect some people will probably respond with "Go grind then" or some variation, that's not really an acceptable solution to the problem. Not only is that not guaranteed to work, depending on the area, but a new player that's not as invested in the game as some of us older members is neither going to know where to grind at nor be particularly inclined to do so in order to progress - they'll just quit the game and go elsewhere instead. That's bad for both AE and us.

My personal hope is that once they've finished the server rewrite, the team will go back through the old content and rebalance it accordingly, to bring it up to modern standards. My suggestion in the other thread was to have a scaling difficulty system, where an area will adjust things like monster damage and hp based on the number of players in the area - this would serve the dual purpose of making things easier for solo players but retaining the difficulty for groups, and open up the possibility of more complex challenge encounters by expanding room size. For instance, you could have a 12-player raid boss in a war, along the lines of Frostfang/Escherion where players have to attack multiple things to nerf/damage the boss. Of course, this would require bosses to have their own rooms in order to function properly, but I don't think that's much of a problem. In some ways, it'd actually make it easier to go help someone since you could just jump straight to the boss room of an area. (Yes, I know /goto is a thing, but still.) This would also make it easier to have different "tiers" of bosses - something we already see with the separate ultra/challenge bosses.

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Post #: 67

1/25/2017 11:28:51

Lathiel
Member

quote:

Lanthiel, may i know how you got to the conclusion that UOK outclasses VHL? I have uok myself, so i know first hand UOK's capability.
Also, to refute your claims, no one says you have to get nulgath items, no one says you have to go for end game items.You can keep up just fine without things like BLoD, ENNH and SDKA.

It's not ideal but who is to say what AE does isn't right? You?

Not me alone, but the playerbase as a whole is to say that what AE does is not right.

The problem is if you don't get those items then you WILL fall behind. Let me give you an example as proof, courtesy of stacking boosts on the testing servers.

Regular auto attack with Blaze Binder currently, using full Wizard enhancements = roughly 200 damage.

Regular auto attack with Blaze Binder using full Wizard enhancements and 3 parts of the Archfiend Doomlord set = roughly 1500 damage.

Tell me how that is fair exactly?

Post #: 68

1/25/2017 20:19:57

MaligKnight
Member

I'm just gonna go out on a limb and argue like everyone else that the drop rates need to be less rage-inducing, but not always guaranteed. *cough* SVELGR FANGS *cough* and having the ability to regen health is nice on paper but when put in action is probably bad in a lot of ways, and imo shouldn't be applied to players or bosses.

AQW

Post #: 69

1/25/2017 21:02:49

Valtorous
Member

@Lathiel

While AFDL's RNG may not seem fair, that's how it is. Tendou buffed the drop a bit and acknowledged our feedback towards the RNG dependency of the quest line. That is all you can ask from the company really. VHL is the reward for farming that quest line. VHL isnt really dependent on RNG at all now, and its pretty managable for even the average player imo. There were farms that you would consider "fair" implemented in game. ArchPaladin is a perfect example of this, Glacial Beserker farming too. These items are not "end-game" and the majority of players can obtain them. Likewise the DOOMFire set was also not end-game. So AE does add stuff for the not-hardcore farming community.

While the other issue you address is something else altogether, AE has the right to decide what they want to do and either succeed or fail. Also you must note that unless bonuses are intended to multiply on themselves, ADFL full set gives 60% bonus damage to all. 60% of 200 is 120 so really the BB auto should be doing 320 damage with the full set. In regular servers the bonus items work correctly. Unless AE changed how bonus items stacking functions, bonus items on testing servers are bugged.

< Message edited by Valtorous -- 1/25/2017 21:03:55 >

AQW	Post #: 70

1/26/2017 1:38:10

beii
Member

Hey, i see you guys talked alot about the AFDL, and i am currently farming for the item. Can someone please tell me the drop rate for

uni 35, so i can at least have some sort of an idea on what to expect.

Post #: 71

1/26/2017 4:37:17

Lathiel
Member

quote:

In regular servers the bonus items work correctly. Unless AE changed how bonus items stacking functions, bonus items on testing servers are bugged.

Not true. The bonus items are bugged on normal servers. Whether or not it's bugged on testing servers remains to be seen, but considering the fact Alina mentioned "Incredibly high boosts" due to gear bonus stacking makes me think it is just supposed to be this way.

quote:

Hey, i see you guys talked alot about the AFDL, and i am currently farming for the item. Can someone please tell me the drop rate for uni 35, so i can at least have some sort of an idea on what to expect.

I'm currently farming for it myself, and just about to get the 4th piece from the quest. I have received an Unidentified 35 on both my first and third turn in of the quest.

< Message edited by Lathiel -- 1/26/2017 4:38:06 >

Post #: 72

1/26/2017 5:42:51

LouisCyphere
Member

The drop rate is probably 13%. IIRC, Asuka said it back then.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 73

1/26/2017 8:51:50

Veya
Member

13% was an estimative, the only thing that was ever stated about the drop rate of uni 35 is that you should be able to get it "within 8 turn ins", which people interpreted as it being a 13% chance, and this was before they supposely increased the drop rate.

The only thing we can say about the uni 35 drop rate is that it is >12.5%, everything else is speculation.

AQW	Post #: 74

1/26/2017 11:55:04

Valtorous
Member

@Lathiel

How are bonus items bugged on regular servers?

AQW	Post #: 75

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