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Hybrid/Mineral/Plasma Armor and Shadow Arts

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1/21/2017 0:19:57   
Legendary Ash
Member

The value of added defense and resistance of these skills are based on minimum of the range.
For example Def 273-316 and Res 270-324 on Hybrid armor Lv 1 gives 24% which is +66 and +65 respectively.
Minimum 66/273 = 24.17% and 65/270 = 24.07%
Average 66/294.5 = 22.41% 65/297 = 21.88%

It doesn't make sense for the added defense to be greater than resistance because the player invested more in Tech than Dex as reflected by the average value.
The technical flaw here is that the range widens faster than the equal growth of minimum and maximum.
The imbalancing flaw is the fact that maximums are an inherent part of power when numbers are partitioned into a range, the skill failing to factor in the maximum to give a boost equal to its average becomes an misrepresented improper boost that is underpowered.

I recommend that the ED staff replace the existing code with an average function to solve this issue.
AQ  Post #: 1
1/21/2017 1:47:47   
Mother1
Member

On an off topic note From what I remember from the last design notes the ED Staff won't be doing any updates for a while. AE has them working on AQW3D and until that is a float and ready ED has been placed on the side.
Epic  Post #: 2
1/21/2017 9:37:43   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

It's not really a problem tbh Ash.
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
1/21/2017 12:42:00   
Stonehawk
Member

No issues. You might think it's underpowered, but it can't be nerfed by azrael. If you have it maxed, it's going to protect you well even if your base defense is low.
(To be honest I don't really understand what do you mean lol)

Well, This is what I can say about those skills: Other defensive skills can give you very high defense even if your def/res is low (usually improves with support). Plasma/Hybrid/Mineral only gives extra def/res according to your base def/res. The lower it is, the less it gives you. It's like an extra protection on your own armor that lasts one more turn and can't be disabled. Nothing wrong, I guess.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
1/21/2017 12:54:32   
Satafou
Member

Those skills apart from shadow arts are underpowered. Although it isn't due to their scaling. It is due to their high energy costs for what you get out of them. The more def/res you invest more benefit you get from these skills, however if you were to compare that to a support tech mage's lvl 1 defence matrix you will notice a drastic difference in not only scaling but also in energy cost.
Post #: 5
1/21/2017 13:13:31   
Stonehawk
Member

I agree with you, Satafou. But the thing is that defense matrix and energy shield are more fragile and lasts -1 turn. This is why those skills had higher costs. Lasts much more and can't be disabled by azrael. Unfortunately costs are so high that you can't do much with remaining energy. And at level 1 the defense you get is kinda worthless, which makes those skills even worse.

To tell you the truth, the whole system is complicated. Having higher defense isn't always good, opponent's rage bar would fill faster and your lovely shield is pierced like paper even if you have a tank build. There are many other consequences that I won't list because everyone that duels a lot knows how the system works and saying something seems wrong won't make them get fixed so I'll just end this explanation here.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 6
1/21/2017 14:20:32   
Satafou
Member

One thing I have noticed is how poorly the passive to active changes were implemented, and i'm not saying this due to the fact the entire reason the devs had for changing passives to actives ended up as a complete contradiction in itself. It's more notably the unbalance of power which these newly active passives created. All passive shields instantly became much weaker than prior to that update. Zero turn and energy costing shields lasting for the entire battle changed into 4 turn shields costing both a turn and energy. Where as reroute was changed into 350+ energy instantaneously, with 0 cost of any kind with a low cooldown for what it gives. Bloodlust's change was possibly the only balanced change from passives to actives. These key passives were all clearly not given enough thought into how they'd effect the game or even the dev's agenda that they had at the time. The worst part of all of this was that to this day they still absolutely refuse to undo this change, when they decided to allow npcs to keep passives change. Perhaps deleted passives such as deadly aim can't return but i'm quite certain bloodlust and reroute at the very least are able to return if it was desired by the devs themselves.

Although despite typing all of this ranting it is ultimately all a waste of time as it's clear to see that this game is officially finished, and that the devs themselves have absolutely no interest in a boring old project that is outdated and undesired. If they really cared about this game the imbalance of newly active passives wouldn't of even been a thing in the first place as it would have been thoroughly tested which as the ED community has known for years, is quite evidently not a frequent occurrence.
Post #: 7
1/21/2017 22:21:51   
Legendary Ash
Member

According to its skill description for the topic's skills it says not affected by stat changes.
Azrael's Torment says a reduction to buff effects, it doesn't specify as stat only.
It would be reasonable to make it count as a buff effect, since its a boost of numbers

I think we should leave out the complicated how Defense Matrix and Energy Shield are balanced by assuming what stat spread values compared to the topic's skills.
Its not the first time I have seen other concerns about skills pop up in my balance threads, see the other concurrent one, I would appreciate it if posters would just to focus on one aspect and don't block the recommendation because of the side dish of tricks or issues it has.
If you feel there are other problems with the game feel free to make your own thread and rant about it.

This is purely an objective mathematical and logic balance issue that anyone with a basic math knowledge would agree to, that you need to average a minimum and maximum to properly represent it as a static value.

Don't attempt to pile other balance concerns and thoughts, or personal opinions of how minor of a change on actual gameplay if any, if it affects you or not to sack this topic, its unprofessional to do so, this forum has direction, etiquette and standards it upholds to.
AQ  Post #: 8
1/21/2017 23:01:32   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Ash, piece of advice: balancing skills by comparing them to other skills historically did not end well, because players cannot substitute individual skills, only entire classes. Hence balance has to be considered holistically by comparing one class/build against another, not an individual skill.

Furthermore, the secondary effects/larger implications of said skills cannot be ignored as you think they should. What you are doing is taking two equations (e.g. 2+5=7 and 3+4=7) and recommending that 2 be changed to 3 because it is by 'objective mathematical logic' lower than 3. The end result does not make sense.
Post #: 9
1/21/2017 23:26:25   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 There isn't a problem with the skill.

I don't see anywhere indicating that the skill should specifically take your average defense/resistance and use that in its calculation. If the wording for the skill is ambiguous, then it can simply be changed to be more descriptive in that it calculates based off of the minimum of the damage reduction range. I don't really get where you're coming from when you say that it doesn't make "sense."

Furthermore, if you have a problem with the way other users handle the threads you create, you message a forum staff member in charge of the board and ask them to handle it. I understand that there aren't that many forum staff members for the ED boards and that we aren't always online 24/7, but that doesn't warrant mini-modding or exhibiting any similar behaviors. Do not continue to exhibit this behavior in the future, just PM a staff member to handle it if you find the behavior of other users unacceptable.
Epic  Post #: 10
1/22/2017 2:44:09   
Legendary Ash
Member

Entirely missed the point of the average function and taking out of context arbitrary examples of addition to describe what "I am doing".
An average isn't adding the minimum and maximum together, the definition is all the values divided by the number of values.

It seems that most of ED players pursue the retention of the status quo, at any mention of a change they bring in they own personal distaste of the balance in the game and concerns with parts of others skills.

I did not ignore the side characteristics of the skills, you can stop putting words in my mouth, I did say it needs to be reinterpreted for both skills it what it should do, they need to do the same thing.

The skill descriptions are vague and don't specify on what it should do, but using common practices of trying to represent a range by a static value, isn't basing it off of an average correct, with all the knowledge you learned in real life?
I did list the flaw of the range increasing as you invest more Dex and Tech, are you saying that it should be lower as you invest more?
AQ  Post #: 11
1/22/2017 15:19:36   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

quote:

Silver Sky Magician: Ash, piece of advice: balancing skills by comparing them to other skills historically did not end well, because players cannot substitute individual skills, only entire classes. Hence balance has to be considered holistically by comparing one class/build against another, not an individual skill.


Then why did the devs nerf an already bad chairman's fury?
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
1/23/2017 16:03:56   
Stonehawk
Member

@Lord Ginger

Same reason they nerfed Static Grenade: Because of abusive builds that made them look strong.

On-topic

Only way to make everyone think skills are balanced is making all skill-trees of every class look the same. Then turn game into BoringDuel because only the looks are different.

I think we should respect each skill's particularity. Not every class has poison. Not every class can stun. Not every class can use shadow arts. Skills aren't made to have the same power. It's the way you use it that makes it good or bad. Just learn the right time to use or find the best level to put each skill and the right build for it and duel on!

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
1/25/2017 1:48:04   
HwarangxDxArcher
Member

I'm pretty sure every class can stun

_____________________________
DF Epic  Post #: 14
1/25/2017 14:26:21   
Mother1
Member

@ Stonehawk

While the poison example is correct, the stun one is incorrect. Every class can stun you with a certain stun skill.

However I see your point. It is because of making the classes more similar that the soul of the classes has been removed. If this is the case we should just remove all classes, put all the skills into a pool and make custom skill trees.
Epic  Post #: 15
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