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RE: =DF= Design Notes March 17: The Nest!

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3/19/2017 15:09:18   
Aura Knight

With Grace resembling someone we knew before, I wonder if The Rose has a way to rewrite someone's reality or memories. Perhaps that's one way they have so many followers. The persons affected by such a thing wouldn't know it because their current selves are how they've always been to their altered knowledge. I'm not sure how to properly explain this. Well, it is just a theory so I won't waste time trying.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 101
3/19/2017 17:14:21   
  San Robin


I know Tomix is a great stroy writer and all of that but I don't think even he can pull off a damage control, not for the rose.


Tomix tries to salvage thee most hated faction to ever be created in DragonFable

Noes, my credits D: (Tomix isn't writing these quests, I am :P)

I have plenty more ideas I hope you all will like, looking forward to writing the quests :)
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 102
3/19/2017 17:27:48   

@Aura Knight.

The term you're looking for is magical brainwashing.

It's possible that some radical members of the Rose could be doing that, but I think normal "this thing is responsible for everything bad" being told to people who are in bad situations and don't know why style brainwashing is more than sufficient for their numbers.
AQ DF  Post #: 103
3/19/2017 17:41:03   

For some reason, I think that this is an elaborate plot to make us feel bad about fighting The Rose. However, I won't say no to a new quest chain!
DF  Post #: 104
3/19/2017 17:55:37   

They could use the storyline to split the feelings on the rose. Make us choose between taking them down and destroying their evil, or letting them live and continue the good. Create two alternate timelines for you to choose.
DF  Post #: 105
3/19/2017 17:56:03   

Hmmm...I wonder if we'll see traditional taste made by grandmas with the messy look and kinda burnt on the sides to be salvaged by Grace teaching Messimy where to scrimp the burnt parts off. While Grace's food with low sodium if there's recipes in the orphanage.

< Message edited by LurkBlackSmith -- 3/19/2017 18:05:41 >
Post #: 106
3/19/2017 18:20:49   
Dark Lord Urmi

Haha yeah we kinda do just default to tomix/dove sorry San Robin ^^;

i think the main reason people give the rose more flak than seppy is because of the fact that seppy never pretended to be something he wasen't he was evil sure but he never did it under the guise of helping people for their own good....he wanted to bring doom and that was that.

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 107
3/19/2017 18:57:20   

The thing is, though, that many members of the Rose legitimately do want to help people without any false pretenses.

< Message edited by FoundHorizon -- 3/19/2017 18:59:31 >
Post #: 108
3/19/2017 19:11:00   

Only certain people if their of some kind if not they imprison them. So there is that of course.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 109
3/19/2017 19:15:56   
Dark Lord Urmi

perhaps but like it or not an ORGANIZATION is judged as its own animal so if its members are killing people but then turn around saying "look at what these rose members are doing see we are good seeeeeee?!" it just doesn't fly and since the good ones are staying in the human settlements while the bad ones are going out into the world people are going to see the bad

and yeah they help non magical humans..that's an IMPORTANT thing to pay attention to the rose is helps non magical human children alone, they protect non magical humans only. yeah sure they do good for one group for for everyone else they do so much bad even the good ones are not helping that.

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 3/19/2017 19:18:39 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 110
3/19/2017 19:21:25   

My point is, the stated reason for why Sepulchure gets less flak than the Rose is because he 'doesn't pretend to be something he's not.' I would argue that the Rose are the same; their goals are to halt the use of magic for the greater good of humankind, and overall, their actions have been in line with that goal, though obviously many Rose members choose extreme and unethical approaches.
Post #: 111
3/19/2017 19:23:50   
Dark Lord Urmi

eh i get way too many mixed messages from them then i do from seppy.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 112
3/19/2017 19:25:53   

I mean, that's only natural, since Sepulchure is just one individual whereas the Rose is many.
Post #: 113
3/19/2017 19:29:38   
Dark Lord Urmi

i'll whittle it down to just jaania for now then

one minute we are the enemy to her next she want us to be her vanguard she freezes for 5 years us then invited us into her ivory tower then kicks us when we try to talk further

is understanding one moment and hates all magic the next...lady needs to find out what she wants and stick to it.

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 114
3/19/2017 19:36:44   

Yeah betterment of mankind well lets see of this well its non magic mankind. I will take dragon age for example because the Rose are similar to the templars.
Here is the problem the templars also had there will always be human mages as long as humans will be born. So what was their solution extermination does not work here because of the always gonna be born so they put them in towers to practice their magic worked for a couple hundred years until the mages had enough and rebelled going in a civil war decimating both factions.

Does this sound familiar because right now the Rose has a powerful opponent in the Vind. This is what will happen the Rose and the Vind will go in an war that will decimate them both making Greenguard an worse place then before as the templars and mages did in the war they had in the 2 countries they fought.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 115
3/19/2017 19:52:46   

So in the orphanage do they get frozen ice to make shaved ice during the summer nights?
Post #: 116
3/20/2017 1:22:36   


~original: @Dark Lord Urmi
and yeah they help non magical humans..that's an IMPORTANT thing to pay attention to the rose is helps non magical human children alone, they protect non magical humans only.

Actually, only the Thorns discriminate against mages. The Rose use mages- Raven was a magically gifted child, and she was part of the Rose. So there's no evidence supporting that statement.

As for damage control... well, San Robin only does small quests, it makes sense not to write anything too complicated. And you know, there are so many people with a single-minded hatred of the Rose- does it hurt to remind people why they actually exist?

In my experience of governing organisations, they all have some skeletons in their closet. The Rose wouldn't be the best compared to these, but they certainly wouldn't be the worst. The 'damage control' I would expect from Dovirrexek Dovex would be to show that the 'good' of the Rose couldn't have arisen without the 'bad' aspects- and indeed that ties with the last quest (the epilogue of the Gathering Shadows saga).


~original: @requiem.exe
The Rose gets more hate than the Shadowscythe despite having good in it. Both groups enslave their minions, one does it with chains and the other with necromancy. Only one has factions that are trying to do any good. Heck, Caitiff got less vitriol than Jaania does from some people.

I suspect this is a bit of the Jar Jar Binks effect. We hate him more than any of the villains in Star Wars, simply because he's so annoying. The Rose is clearly annoying people- not to mention it stimulates the righteous indignation response.


~original: @Alli
If you say you are supporting the Rose you are either willfully ignorant or a cruel person, likely the former. Now if you would say that you believe there is good in the Rose and you wanna support that fine. But you shouldn't be supporting the Rose overall because the bad deeds outweigh the good overall as well.

Well that's kind of you.
That's an opinion. In your opinion, anyone who would support the Rose is a member of your binary category, because in your opinion their bad deeds outweigh their good ones.
Really, if you live on Lore, chances are your choice is to support the Rose or risk a severe and horrible death. Look at the constant invasions... those threats aren't going away. And magical creatures seem to have a propensity for attacking anyone who looks funny. Can you really blame people for supporting them?
People have to think subjectively. i.e.
Will this course of action kill me
takes precedence over
Is supporting this organisation socially and morally unacceptable according to well documented philosophies that would be taken by a court of law
The Nest is an example of an unknown positive factor. How many more of those are required before you say the good outweighs the bad? Fairly sure an objective viewpoint would by definition have to take all those subjective unknowns into account...
DF MQ  Post #: 117
3/20/2017 1:28:02   

So during winter do they have thick hemp blankets in the orphanage? Also during the weekday ends....do they have BACON! for the total meat lovers for breakfast,lunch and dinner? Secondly how likely will we need to escort the cheese maker from Swordhaven again to the orphanage?

< Message edited by LurkBlackSmith -- 3/20/2017 1:39:24 >
Post #: 118
3/20/2017 2:51:02   

@San Robin
sorry about that SR, it's like DLU said Tomix is kind of the default person...

anyways I know you are going to do your best with the ROSE but you have one heck of an uphill battle, it to be honest does seem like damage control however with that said I do like the quest and I look forward to seeing more from you.
Post #: 119
3/20/2017 3:44:00   

Oh yeah.... does the orphanage have a alarm clock? While how does the orphanage prepare their cooking oil stock and how fast is the lard used for other meals for the meat eaters? Thirdly, would be how's the birthday parties going be?
Post #: 120
3/20/2017 6:42:29   



Actually, only the Thorns discriminate against mages. The Rose use mages- Raven was a magically gifted child, and she was part of the Rose. So there's no evidence supporting that statement.

To be fair though Raven was trained as an energizer who seem to use technology rather than magic. While the Rose may not discriminate against people with the potential to become a mage I'd say they definitely discriminate against the idea of choosing to become a mage as a profession. If the Rose discriminated against everyone who had the potential to become a mage they would have to kick out almost every one of their current recruits as almost all humans have the ability to use magic to a certain degree.
Post #: 121
3/20/2017 14:24:03   
Dragon Master1229

I keep seeing "damage control" get used, but from what I've seen it looks like people are willing to look at all sides of the Rose, and not use black and white morality when describing them. So I really can't see that as being the case, maybe its damage control to the people who cannot see the Rose as anything but evil, but that's clearly not the case for everyone.

As for the conspiracies, they're exactly that as far as I'm concerned. So far I genuinely like and trust the characters introduced, but we'll see as the questline continues. If we were meant to despise the Rose the hero wouldn't be shown as conflicted about them.
DF  Post #: 122
3/20/2017 23:40:25   

the only thing is the hero is shown torn because well that's how it was written as those that cannot trust the rose there is nothing to be torn about, in all honest my Hero will be pretending to trust 'em and then toss the 'think about it?' out the window.

and I do use the term damage control because lets face it, just look at the end of the last great war. Tomix did a great job of showing the true feelings about the rose and Jaania, there is no way that the my hero would be this conflicted, the rose are not to be trusted and so far just because one person within has shown to have a soul and will not allow those under his command be monsters.

As for what's her name and the children what better way to tug at the heart strings of the player/hero than children.

thus why I said damage control when it comes to the rose because of how many hate or despise the organisation and 99.99% of those within the rose.

After all every single key member of the rose that we have ran across save for Amityvale is 100% a bigot and doesn't hide their bigotry and hate for anything that isn't a normal human.

the Rose destroyed Popsprocket for no reason at all, and we are not suppose to hate or dispise 99.99% of the rose?

In the end there is nothing to be torn about when it comes to the rose.

though with that said I do look forward to see how this quest chain unfolds.
Post #: 123
3/20/2017 23:51:44   

At any rate, I am very, very veryyyyy sightly worried that the Rose will be written off as pretty much good guys and then 'oh Akanthus is bad lol' by the end of this. Morally gray is one thing but 'we're good but one guy is a jerkoff' is another :P

I am not pro-rose at any rate but I have nothing to genuinely 'hate' them for bar awful leadership. While I never want to end up hating them, I do hope we get to see some more messed up moves Jaania and co make soon. Not to get us to hate them, but yeah, to remind us that 'the Rose itself also is morally gray, not just this one meanie pants Akanthus and some insane fascists'.
Post #: 124
3/21/2017 0:01:33   

that's the thing though, 99.99% the entire organisation is evil, look how the normal soldiers are bigots in general and treat people and creatures that are not like them terribly.
heck they even stole a farmer's land because he was using a magical creature to help them with their farm and there are two children iirc that just lost their home, form of income, and their food.

how many children are left homeless and or orphaned at the hands of the rose themselves?
can't say none because we see at least one good example of that as I mentioned above.

as to the whole rose not fully being evil that is why I said 99.99% of the rose was evil as the only one good leader is in Amityvale.

< Message edited by VJ -- 3/21/2017 0:03:01 >
Post #: 125
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