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5/9/2017 20:37:22   
Vaalirus
Member

Would there really be a point to the transformation though? I mean as long as it's a separate thing specifically designated for a questline in a couple of cutscenes then I guess it could work like when Ash finally became an Archknight of the light when facing down his final boss.

Except the thing about that form is that we never see it again as a skill for the character and we probably shouldn't if it makes quests too easy. I mean even in other AE games the protagonist still lost their transformations, like when the AQW character had to give up their powers of death to enter the chaos realm.

And what defines a transformation for the hero? Is it something that also must be part of a new skill like Doomknight becoming a dragon or similar to the trinkets we use to become Roktoru or the Reaver? Or is it a whole new armor set completely that is limited to a questline?
DF  Post #: 51
5/9/2017 23:47:33   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

You know, the Ultimate Bacon Orb was actually not a deus ex machina; it was set up a long time before, with the Bacon Orb questline, and Cysero's time travel... It was a loose end they tied into the main plot.

Yes, I was talking about Dragonball Evolution. As far as I am aware, it was the only live action film produced (i.e. not anime).

The amount of 'ultimates' and 'finals' they have to stick on the abilities in DBZ just because they've overused the 'final ability' trope so much... that's when it starts getting funny. In more of a 'we're laughing at you' way.

quote:

~original: @VJ
Though to be fair flesh weaver is a lazy class but that's only because a very vocal tiny amount of fans wanted it, nothing more than that.

But there's all those ethics involved. We don't actually know enough about the class to know whether it's lazy yet. I'm sure there are restrictions on the transformations...
Also, more free timeline classes is better for the game...
DF MQ  Post #: 52
5/10/2017 2:10:26   
elite dark slayer
Member

Never having watched Dragon Ball Z, I can't really take part in that particular argument, but let us just try and imagine the consequences of giving a main character an incredibly powerful skill that can theoretically be used at the drop of a hat.

Narratively speaking, this would mean that you have written yourself into a corner, giving the character an enemy who cannot be defeated normally. Now, you have four main options which immediately present themselves. Firstly, you could go with the 'the character unlocks a super-powerful ability' route. Secondly, you could go with the 'the hero gets help from an outside source' route. Thirdly, if you have had the forethought to make your character one who has proven to be resourceful and intelligent in the past, you can have your character use this to get out of the situation. And fourthly, you could let the character lose. Okay, let's see what happens with each of these options.

For the first option, if you want your audience to accept it, it will need some explanation before or after the event. If you do it well enough, loose ends from some time before the 'transformation' will be tied up by this, giving the audience at least something to hold up their disbelief with. Even after you do this explanation, the question then becomes 'what now?'. Now that the character can do this, will it become a recurring thing, or will it be explained it such a way that the character can only do it once, or only under a specific set of circumstances? If it becomes a recurring ability, then your antagonists will have to become stronger in order for any real conflict to occur, because conflict, in some form or another, is what drives a story. This will eventually end up in a fairly ridiculous powercreep occurring, something that I gather is happening in Dragon Ball Z. If the character can only perform this ability once, then yeah, maybe it can be acceptable, if you have a good explanation, I won't deny that. No real downsides, except for the idea that some of your audience might take a step back to think, and come up with the idea that it is incredibly contrived unless you foreshadow it for very long beforehand. To carry on the analogy to a television series, you cannot foreshadow such an ability at the start of an episode and then use the ability just later on in the episode. It would need to be at least mentioned at the start of the season, with the ability being used near the end of the season, or even mentioned several seasons before. This shows your audience that you have given the ability some thought, and not just thrown it in to save your narrative. It could even prove suspenseful, making the reader wonder 'when will the character use the ability?', especially if it comes with significant drawbacks. Now, if the ability can only be used under a specific set of circumstances, the result depends on how specific your circumstances are. Not specific enough, and you end up with powercreep, a la the recurring ability. Too specific, and it looks contrived again, ruining the suspension of disbelief. There should theoretically be a sweet spot between the two, but it is very hard to pull off, and would still probably need some mentioning beforehand. Way beforehand.

Now, the second option. The character gets help from an outside force. This could be the character's friends, or someone else whose motivations happen to involve helping the character. If it is the character's friends or allies, this will require some setup beforehand, explaining why they are helping, how they knew to help, and why they were even around. One example of this done well would be Gandalf arriving with what is literally the cavalry during the battle of Helm's Deep. Where the cavalry came from, why Gandalf was initially missing, and why he came back at that particular time were all fairly well explained, leaving the audience in no doubt that while this was planned by the author, it was in no way contrived. Once all these conditions are successfully met, the plot can continue as normal. If it is not an ally, there are three options: a new character, a previously neutral character or a different enemy. A new character can give the plot a new element or direction, or can explain certain occurrences which have previously taken place. Both are satisfying conclusions, either driving the plot or tying up loose ends. But the new character must show up again, or it starts to look contrived. A previously neutral character will drive the plot, too, especially if you explain why they now side with your character. Also a satisfying conclusion if done right, and would lead to character development for this former neutral party. This leaves the option of the enemy helping the character. This one's an interesting one. The enemy is either performing a heel-face turn, which can be difficult to write believably, or his motivations just so happen to line up with the hero being left alive. A heel-face turn can be an interesting way to resolve conflict, or it can be boring and unbelievable. Depends on how you end up writing it. If the enemy's motivations involve helping the character, expect some interesting conflict and distrust between the character and his enemy during their temporary truce against what is their mutual foe. These motivations could be a new, nefarious plan, or just 'teaming up against a bigger threat'. This also has the effect of giving you a perfect opportunity to either shine a light on the enemy's motivations, or foreshadowing a new plan on the enemy's part, giving you a brand new story arc. All of these are fairly acceptable solutions, rather than giving your character a deus ex machina ability.

Now, one of the most fun options, in my opinion. The character thinks his or her way out of the situation. This gives a new dimension to the plot, showing that your character does more than just whack foes until everything becomes better. No, instead, your character is one who thinks. Anyone can be a brainless but powerful warrior, but one who shows cunning and resourcefulness is character who is not guaranteed to always win, but will go far in achieving their goals. This prevents powercreep, especially if the character is not amazingly powerful in their own right. It also provides suspense in future battles, as the audience can never be absolutely sure that the character will win, especially if you show that you are willing to let your character lose once in a while. It keeps things believable, makes the character relatable, and keeps conflict at a manageable level. A resounding success all around.

Option four. One of the options many writers are hesitant to try. Let the character lose. If the character is not the protagonist, the character might end up actually dying. This drives the plot, and may make the enemy even more despicable in the eyes of the audience if the character is is beloved by the audience. Think 'the death of Obi-Wan Kenobi'. If the character is the protagonist, the protagonist is usually protected by plot armour and either survives somehow or dies, but doesn't die completely. He or she survives as a ghost or something. But the death of the protagonist doesn't happen often, unless it is to make way for a new protagonist. But, again, as I said, plot armour and many writers being sentimental about their characters, so it won't happen often unless you're reading Game of Thrones. If the character survives, they have the opportunity to come back stronger, coming back knowing the enemy's weakness, or coming back with help. If they come back stronger, you have your first option again. Powercreep ensues. If they come back knowing the enemy's weakness, you have the third option: resourceful character that the audience can root for and relate to! Especially since the character failed at first, something I'm sure many have gone through. If they come back with help, that's your second option again.

Sorry to make you guys read all that, do tell me if I missed anything important. But if there's on one thing I want all of the 'TL;DR' people to take from this, it's this: every time you write something, you must consider the ramifications on the plot and how your audience views it. Especially with something as gamechanging as giving your character a superpower.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 53
5/10/2017 13:38:09   
Greyor_42
Member

@elite dark slayer

ironically, all FOUR of those narratives were used together in what is called the "namek saga" of dbz. the big bad of that arc had been stated to fear only the possibility of a "super saiyan" pretty much all throughout the arc, and it was stated to be the pinnacle of power that a saiyan could achieve. as the fight against him continued on, other allies cam and joined in, all trying various different tactics to at least WEAKEN the big bad, or even just buy time for the main character to arrive. when he finally did, even HE was having trouble holding his ground and had to resort to trying to out plan their opponent. when it seemed that they had finally won, the bad guy comes back, severely injures one of the main character's friends(who they had gone to that place to revive to begin with), and kills his BEST friend.


now, the titular dragon balls have limits, for example, the set from earth at the time could only revive someone once. if they die a second time, they can't revive them again. the guy who was killed had already been revived once in the original dragon ball series, so the main character thought he was dead for good this time. this event pretty much caused his rage to break, which just so happened to be the final requirement for him to unlock the super saiyan transformation(the requirements are that the saiyan must be very powerful to begin with, have a still or "pure" heart -though later events kind of bring up some questions about that one- and then they must be completely overwhelmed by an intense feeling of rage, fear, or grief). this form allowed him to fight on equal grounds with the bad guy, and eventually defeat him. in the next two arcs, the transformation, it's restrictions, and it requirements are better explained, but the powercreep issue you brought up is still there.


but yeah, i honestly don't see any need for the hero to have a transformation. they are already powerful and resourceful as it is, and they have friends that can back them up if they aren't enough on their own.
DF  Post #: 54
5/10/2017 16:12:20   
Dark Lord Urmi
Member

the hero has two canon transformations and yes they ARE canon.

1. fully synchro via aegis

2. dragonlord ultimate on the right bar (yes you gain wings and great power it is a transformation)



There is no downside to the hero having a unique power they alone have and a transformation is a good introduction to a power like that.

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 5/10/2017 16:13:55 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 55
5/10/2017 16:22:50   
ShadowMoon
Member

@above now lets fuse those 2 together
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 56
5/10/2017 16:28:44   
Dark Lord Urmi
Member

^ now THAT is unnecessary.


Just have the hero power up his dragon lord armor to be in tune with the destroyer and boom the perfect lore friendly transformation that makes sense.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 57
5/11/2017 3:47:54   
elite dark slayer
Member

@Dark Lord Urmi
quote:

the hero has two canon transformations and yes they ARE canon.

1. fully synchro via aegis

2. dragonlord ultimate on the right bar (yes you gain wings and great power it is a transformation)

The problem I think many of us have here is not with the idea of a transformation, per se. What kind of RPG players would we be if we didn't enjoy some cool new thing like that? No, it's with the idea of an ultimate skill which is controlled almost solely by the hero and what that means for all further interactions and storylines. Transformations were brought up because they are a fairly common (I think) anime or cartoon trope (forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't watch animes or cartoons, usually) which tend to be 'ultimate powers controlled by a single character. Both full synchronisation and the dragonlord skill, while being 'transformations' of sorts, and undeniably being 'ultimate powers' for those particular classes have not proven powerful enough to be truly gamechanging. They're just sort of... average class ultimates, not ultimate ultimates, if you catch my drift.

@Greyor_42
quote:

ironically, all FOUR of those narratives were used together in what is called the "namek saga" of dbz.
I did say that I have never seen Dragon Ball Z, and so would try to stay out of that argument if possible. It could be a perfectly good show, for all I know. Doesn't really detract from my argument, anyway. But it's good to know someone actually took the time to read what I know realise is something more along the lines of an essay on writing and didn't seem to find any huge problems with it!

< Message edited by elite dark slayer -- 5/12/2017 8:11:50 >
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 58
5/11/2017 4:14:56   
Dark Lord Urmi
Member

^ yes its a common anime trope but its not always ultimate power..its usually to help the situation every now and then but its meant to be a measuring stick for other characters or even the user's strength later on.

assuming the transformation would be op is silly, stop seeing it as super saiyan god ( dragon ball) or hollow form (bleach) and see it more as devil trigger (devil may cry) a big enough boost to make a difference but not enough to break the fabric of the universe dante only needs one form throughout the games minus the two exceptions but in comparison to dragonfable those would be our adult dragon XD

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 5/11/2017 4:18:55 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 59
5/11/2017 11:17:51   
Wolfofdoom3
Member

@Elite,a lot of the plot routes you mention happened before in DF.For example when we had to defeat SMUDD,Cysero out of nowhere "helped".And when that was not enough near the end Fluffy came out of nowhere and helped..and then Wargoth happened and then-....Really one thing that is really bad about the hero is that they never use their brain when facing stronger opponents,always...and I mean always somebody else has to do the thinking for them.Caitiff was the one enemy the hero defeated on their own(I mean not really,it was with the help of our dragon).So yeah....the hero is not a strategic thinker.
Post #: 60
5/11/2017 16:44:16   
Alamiran
Member

@Above You can be a strategic thinker without being a rocket scientist. The Hero probably just doesn't know the mechanics of time travel, and never imagined that you could make an ultimate Bacon Orb by using 8 different versions of the same orb. He also probably didn't know how the whole Warlic-Wargoth-Professor thing worked, and didn't know how to merge Wargoth and the Professor back together.

My point is that the Hero didn't really KNOW about any weaknesses of his extremely powerful opponents that he could use to his advantage. Caitiff's weakness was probably the fragility of Serenity's body, but the Hero never got a good opportunity to use this to his advantage either, only the Dragon did. He IS a strategic thinker, as shown in the Final 13th and the Black Winter.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 61
5/12/2017 4:50:10   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

quote:

~original: @elite dark slayer
But it's good to know someone actually took the time to read what I know realise is something more along the lines of an essay on writing and didn't seem to find any huge problems with it!

Well, if it's essay feedback you're after, it could have been a little more concise. Essays also have a greater unifying theme that each independent argument supports, so in a case where you actually knew you were trying to write an essay before writing it, you'd want to keep this in mind.

Incidentally, there are many possibilities that don't fit into those categories. There's the totally random (piano falls from sky), which you excluded in the second point by requiring an external factor (though I admit that's really a technicality). The same goes for the aggressor having a heart attack...

I suppose the possibilities you listed are restricted to having characters as the direct aggressor, and protagonist. However there are many stories with environments that interact with the plot in a meaningful way ([Wo]Man vs Nature).
It also only applies in a win/lose situation. What about a scenario in which there is no way to win or lose? The possibility of a brute force superpower in such a circumstance could be interesting. Or merely frustrating, as in Seppy's case.
DF MQ  Post #: 62
5/12/2017 8:43:54   
elite dark slayer
Member

@Dark Lord Urmi
quote:

assuming the transformation would be op is silly, stop seeing it as super saiyan god
Sure. I'm not saying that a transformation would be 'OP'. In fact, I mentioned specifically that there are transformations that are not 'OP'. Except a transformation which is not ultra-powerful is clearly not what this thread is talking about.

@Wolfofdoom3
quote:

@Elite,a lot of the plot routes you mention happened before in DF.
Yes, they have. I'm just stating the different possibilities and why I prefer them to this 'transformation' thing.

@Shiny_Underpants
quote:

Well, if it's essay feedback you're after, it could have been a little more concise. Essays also have a greater unifying theme that each independent argument supports, so in a case where you actually knew you were trying to write an essay before writing it, you'd want to keep this in mind.
Actually, there is a unifying theme, if you look carefully and think about it. I was pointing out various ways to resolve a confrontation involving combat, and possible consequences on the plot. And, no I did not know I was going to be writing an essay, it's just a style I've developed over the years. Thought it was fairly clear, myself, but I suppose a forum format isn't really conducive to long messages. And I will always go for clarity over concision, as it allows for better defence of my position.
quote:

There's the totally random (piano falls from sky), which you excluded in the second point by requiring an external factor (though I admit that's really a technicality). The same goes for the aggressor having a heart attack...
Well, I was trying to go for broad possibilities that made sense within most narratives. Your examples are... unlikely to look like anything except a deus ex machina unless it's set up beforehand, which leads us right back to my points. Or unless you're writing a universe where that actually tends to happen (there are weirder premises for a story).
quote:

I suppose the possibilities you listed are restricted to having characters as the direct aggressor, and protagonist. However there are many stories with environments that interact with the plot in a meaningful way ([Wo]Man vs Nature).
Well, yes. Technically. Not really if you think about it. I reduced it to 'direct aggressor, and protagonist', as you put it, because it simplifies things for ease of explanation. Let's say it's your protagonist versus nature. Nature is actively trying to kill the protagonist.

The protagonist can suddenly develop awesome nature-survival skills/turn into something with awesome nature-survival skills(provided your setting allows for that kind of thing). This is similar to the idea behind transformation, suddenly giving your character the power to defeat the enemy (nature, in this case).

The protagonist can also find help in surviving from an outside force (being given food, water and shelter, for example), whether that source be friend, foe, or neutral.

The protagonist can also think his or her way out of the situation, using logic and intelligence to solve problems faced. This case would be similar to the transformation one, I suppose, but that can't be helped in this context. I suppose the difference would be that of presentation (which is important, you're trying to tell a story, here. It's all about presentation).

The protagonist can also lose, like almost dying from exposure and being saved somehow. Or dying. if the character survives, they can train to have the necessary skills and come back to defeat this dreaded foe (nature)

As you can see, it's not all that much different, you just have to consider who your antagonist is and adjust accordingly.
quote:

It also only applies in a win/lose situation. What about a scenario in which there is no way to win or lose?
You're going to have to explain this a bit more, maybe with an example. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'no way to win or lose'. Because, I'm fairly sure it's all about perspective and what you consider winning or losing.

< Message edited by elite dark slayer -- 5/12/2017 8:44:17 >
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 63
5/12/2017 10:23:41   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

@elite dark slayer
A unifying cause (to which the essay is responding) is actually not quite the same as a theme. A theme is, in a way, a tier above the causes of discussion, as it is raised from analysing all the different points raised by the causes together. Hence, no matter how many points you have, you will usually have less themes. Until you don't.
So an essay that covers three points is likely to have on theme, maybe two.

quote:

~original: @elite dark slayer
Thought it was fairly clear, myself, but I suppose a forum format isn't really conducive to long messages. And I will always go for clarity over concision, as it allows for better defence of my position.

While longer messages do contain more, it often makes it harder for a prospective reader to see the point you're trying to raise. A more general structure would be:
Sub paragraph 1: raise your point and the main issues
Sub paragraph 2: all the slight diversions and interesting consequences
(Though of course there are many more possibilities for structure). These can then contain the same information, but are often clearer or less wordy; concise.

You were around for The Good Fleshweaver. Those messages really were long- 50+ lines.

There isn't actually anything wrong with your message, I simply thought I'd offer some feedback, for when the essay writing is intentional.
quote:

~original: @elite dark slayer
Your examples are... unlikely to look like anything except a deus ex machina unless it's set up beforehand, which leads us right back to my points. Or unless you're writing a universe where that actually tends to happen (there are weirder premises for a story).

Over here, on the far end of the probability spectrum...
I did once did a comedy where the chance of a piano falling from the sky was set up. It didn't though; that would've been too obvious.



I suppose in terms of nature, I was thinking more along the lines of Brokeback Mountain. It's less direct an aggressor, though nevertheless a key part of the events in the story.
But then, Brokeback Mountain is essentially the polar opposite of Dragonball Z.
quote:

~original: @elite dark slayer
You're going to have to explain this a bit more, maybe with an example. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'no way to win or lose'. Because, I'm fairly sure it's all about perspective and what you consider winning or losing.

There are some situations where a 'win' is impossible, even when a 'best possible outcome' is impossible. The trolley problem, for example, is hard enough when the weighting is skewed three to one.
So if you put a protagonist in a situation where, say, one of their friends had to die, and they had to choose. Of course, a transformation might actually help subvert most of these scenarios.
Or you could have your typical 'two people sharing the same life force' situation, where one is about to die. Like if Piotr would have died from his coma if Tomix had lived for more than a month after his revival, say.
(I have a number of other, better scenarios, but they're all elaborate ones I've used in my own work).

Then you have some even more complicated ones, where it's less direct; save people short-term, and be prevented from being able to save people long-term, or sacrifice them short-term in exchange for long-term power?
Both are unpopular; the long-term solution makes you an antihero immediately, while the short-term makes you an antihero as soon as the next problem arises.
Which, then, is a victory?

Then there's a change of heart. What was a victory is in retrospect actually a failure, as it caused these other unforeseen problems...
DF MQ  Post #: 64
5/12/2017 14:30:53   
Greyor_42
Member

@shiny_underpants

quote:

There are some situations where a 'win' is impossible, even when a 'best possible outcome' is impossible. The trolley problem, for example, is hard enough when the weighting is skewed three to one.
So if you put a protagonist in a situation where, say, one of their friends had to die, and they had to choose. Of course, a transformation might actually help subvert most of these scenarios.
Or you could have your typical 'two people sharing the same life force' situation, where one is about to die. Like if Piotr would have died from his coma if Tomix had lived for more than a month after his revival, say.
(I have a number of other, better scenarios, but they're all elaborate ones I've used in my own work).

Then you have some even more complicated ones, where it's less direct; save people short-term, and be prevented from being able to save people long-term, or sacrifice them short-term in exchange for long-term power?
Both are unpopular; the long-term solution makes you an antihero immediately, while the short-term makes you an antihero as soon as the next problem arises.
Which, then, is a victory?

Then there's a change of heart. What was a victory is in retrospect actually a failure, as it caused these other unforeseen problems...


those are all situations where "losing" is the only option, though. or where it's kind of ambiguous about whether it was a victory or a loss. he was asking about situations that you had implied earlier, where there's no win OR lose.
DF  Post #: 65
5/12/2017 16:27:19   
Wolfofdoom3
Member

@Elite I wasn't disagreeing with your opinion I was just stating a fact.
Post #: 66
5/14/2017 14:31:25   
Kashlikaro
Member

Well, we got something of that sort in the finale for MechQuest. That was fun.

Wouldn't mind our Hero getting a one-quest class with flashier abilities during the finale of Book 3, similar to Tomix-Pandora at the end of the Tomix Saga. (Nope, still not over it.)

...By the way, which classes ARE Canon? Everything not in the DC shop/Doom Knight? Just the Base/Dragon/DragonLord Class? And SoulWeaver, maybe?
DF  Post #: 67
5/14/2017 21:04:00   
Greyor_42
Member

@kashlikaro anything you didn't spend dc's on, isn't a calendar class, and isn't doomknight is canon.
DF  Post #: 68
5/14/2017 21:09:38   
dragon_monster
Member

I wonder chicken cow and ascended one is ti canon or not because the last chickencow armor really looks that you transformed. The problem is these classes are both non dc and dc so are they canon or not?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 69
5/14/2017 22:50:52   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

huh. good question. personally, i think it's a non-canon thing, since it started out as just an april fool's joke class.
DF  Post #: 70
5/15/2017 9:07:52   
Alli
Member
 

your criticisms of dragon ball's lazy writing would have more merit if it were so that for example ssj1 against frieza was the sole reason he won. or that ssj2 gohan was the sole reason they won that fight.

Against frieza, the reason goku could win was because of ssj1 of course and that frieza was lax. He was in his surpressed form at the very start feigning weakness but also assuming no one in the universe as close to him. when he was in his final form he bulked up and became what is known as 100% full power frieza. Reason he lost is because he couldnt sustain the power because he wasnt used to it. also legendary super saiyan form was hinted upon troughout the whole saiyan saga.

Against cell Gohan did initially win but perfect cell was able of coming back due to his ability of regrowing from even 1 cell, which could be seen as deus ex machina but obviously still wasnt enough for him to win. The reason he then lost, after gaining a power up, was because the combined power of the Z fighters put cell off balance and messed up his concentration so gohan with the emotional support of his father could win. in particular, Vegeta's blast with all the power he had left in him did the trick. Also was the there a build up towards super saiyan 2 throughout the saga, first highlighted by the fact ssj1 just wasnt enough anymore. Also gohan was seen with great potential from the first episode and this was utilised in the cell ark.

DBZ and DBS are childrens shows so they dont go too in depth when it comes to the anime. Reading the manga too and perhaps some outside sources explains everything even though i made these observations without them. whereas from a 'what all they do is scream and grunt' point of view im not surprised you wont enjoy the show. Some critical thinking helps here.

Also it helps that you realise this is a japanese show, with a different culture and history than wherever else you are from. History in particular surrounding battle and martial arts explains this screaming and grunting. its more commonly know as kiai (look it up on wikipedia) and is part of asian martial arts culture.

So transformations in dragonfable? YES. As long as it is build towards to and they make it fit properly into the storyline. Which DBZ has done too, were you to look into it a tad bit more with a bit of a brain.
Post #: 71
5/15/2017 11:31:28   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

quote:

~original: @Alli
your criticisms of dragon ball's lazy writing would have more merit if it were so

Hmm, what about Dragon Ball's writing might be lazy...
quote:

~original: @Alli
Also was the there a build up towards super saiyan 2 throughout the saga, first highlighted by the fact ssj1 just wasnt enough anymore.

Ah yes, the reused plot device. Especially since it was probably the simplest plot device I've heard of in the first place, the first time it was used.

Hmm, how is he going to get through this one? Last time he went Super Saiyan, this time I look forward to seeing what he does now that it's no longer an option.
Here it comes. I'm sure this will be a great chance for the writers to branch out.
And
FALSE ALARM PEOPLE, IT'S THE SAME PLOT DEVICE


I have heard of kiai (though I did double check, in case I was mixing it up with Tai Chi, or Chai or something), but I always thought it was a little lacking on the utility side. It can only accompany movements of the fast, abrupt, start-stop type, which only covers a small section of combat.
In any case, a drawn out screaming is unlikely to startle the opponent beyond the first shout, or engender proper breathing technique.
DF MQ  Post #: 72
5/15/2017 12:26:53   
ShadowMoon
Member

quote:

DBZ and DBS are childrens shows

i'm pretty sure master roshi's very existence makes it obvious that the dragonball series is not meant to be a children's show.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 73
5/15/2017 15:15:02   
  Starflame13

Gryffin Warrior of DF GD & RP


Poking this thread back on track! As a reminder, we are discussing Hero Transformations in the context of DF. Anime discussion can go in the Entertainment section in the OOC of the forums!
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 74
5/15/2017 16:51:40   
Alli
Member
 

Just to defend myself,

@shiny A single plot device. That's all the merit you're criticism has. Even then, The most likely reason they continued using this device is because of the fact that most of the fanbase loves it. it's a theme for that reason i'd say, rather than it being lazy writing per se. The fact is that this device isnt the sole reason that they win fights. Its a multitude of factors as explained before.

As for kiai, you are, to some extent, right. However whereas we use it for short bursts, DBZ came up with the idea of prolonged moments of intense powering up AND is a fighting anime. So as the series diverges from reality and expands upon idea, so has kiai been added on in the series. Also the shouting isnt used to intimidate enemies. It is to help focus ki and achieve a new state of power. See it as a person weightlifting. You have to put in intense effort, willpower and focus properly to lift a heavy object repeatedly. During a power up one must focus his ki to reach a higher power.

@Shadow You have to realise that DBZ and DB were made ages ago, back when different things were taboo and others were not. It was acceptable at the time. This is the reason pervertedness and blood have been toned down in DBS. they cant do it anymore.

So when people get the idea of transformation and look upon it negatively because of DBZ, don't. I'm sure the talented writers here can do something with it to make it achieve your idea of incredibly intelligent writing.

Don't know if anyone heard of the game sonny, but in that they do something similar with 2 transformations or morphs. The 2 give the main character different attributes and powers such as ice (CDR, Slow) and Fire(Increased damage, HP). This could be implemented in a class and change the mechanics a tad bit. Or otherwise if people aren't keen on the transformation, it could just be a different state. Like someone earlier pointed out, a berserker mode, increased damage, less defence etc. for a period of time. Not a single skill that boosts damage, but a proper state that gives advantages and disadvantage. it'd be unique addition to the game
Post #: 75
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