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RE: A quick prediction about the "end" of magic

 
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5/11/2017 1:40:20   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

If Warlic's mana was that straightforward, why wouldn't he have tried getting mages to drain him of it? During the book 1 finale, the mages supporting the light shield could simply have siphoned Warlic's mana, meaning it would take longer for them to tire, and preventing him from splitting.

But that didn't happen.


I do not think you understand the problem the mages have they will overcharge and well probably die if they tried also can mages syphon mana from an living being or from another being? Think about it if mages could do this the mage civilzation that created the manaphages would not have been anihilated by them since they could just take the mana back from the manaphages.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 51
5/11/2017 1:46:12   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

^Well, the manaphages clearly have some defences, given that it was literally what they were made to do.
The mages of the magesterium siphon mana, albeit from 'walking nexuses', who are simply humans overloaded with mana, so it is possible for mages to siphon mana from a living being.

quote:

I do not think you understand the problem the mages have they will overcharge and well probably die

The thing is, the mages were also expending mana to keep the light shield up. Warlic may be expending more, but if he's generating, say, 100MP a minute, and each mage expends 25MP a minute, 4 mages could safely siphon it.
As long as they started before Warlic had a dangerous amount of mana, this would prevent the danger of siphoning too much and overloading. If Warlic only *has* 25MP at any given moment, there isn't any danger of siphoning more than 25MP.
DF MQ  Post #: 52
5/11/2017 1:55:02   
dragon_monster
Member

It will work what you say if it was not the issue of maintaining the light shield doubt they can syphon the mana and keep the light shield and the question of if they can syphon enough mana from Warlic and not overcharge and can syphon it fast enough. Think like this what if Warlic produces 1000 mana per second and they can only take 100 mana per second.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 53
5/11/2017 2:04:27   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

Surely there were more mages in Falconreach than shown in that cutscene. All it takes is more mages.
DF MQ  Post #: 54
5/11/2017 5:33:43   
Alamiran
Member

@Greyor I know about the ley lines, but they GET their mana directly from the mana core. Saying that the mages don't draw in mana from the mana core is like saying someone who buys something in a shop doesn't buy a product of the factory that made the thing in question. They can't draw mana from the core itself no, just like average people can't buy everything a factory produces, even if they need it. So mages draw in mana indirectly from the mana core.

And yes, the mana core DOES have a limited capacity. It has the potential to produce an infinite amount of mana, but that would take literally an INFINITY, as it can't produce infinite amounts of mana in a second. As long as it can only produce a finite amount of mana in a finite time period, it has limited capacity. It can't exhaust it's mana, because it produces it from nothing, that's what I said too, but it can only produce X mana points/second.

And we actually don't know how Warlic's magic works. You can compare it to a car, that produces fuel when you drive, instead of burning it. But then you would still be able to open the fuel tank and pour out the fuel, so you could use it for something else. I've always thought Warlic exhausted his mana by sending it out into the mana system, and that happens automatically, so Warlic doesn't know how it works, and thus can't find a way to do it more effectively. I don't think mana can just BURN AWAY, because I believe that mana, like energy, can never truly be lost, only turned into magic.

@Shiny_Underpants I see two legitimate reasons for that, maybe it's a combination of both:

1. Transferring mana directly to another person is probably complicated magic, and Alina, Reens, Elysia, Nythera and perhaps Cysero may have been the only people present who knew how to do it, and they were not enough to match Warlic's mana production, not even Cysero, as he usually uses his magic to create magical items, rather than using large scale elemental spells, so his direct mana exhaust is probably not that big. Besides, his magic is kinda... unpredictable.

2. It requires a lot of concentration, so they can't do it while maintaining the mana shield at the same time, meaning it would cause them to overload, as their mana capacity is probably not as big as Warlic's.

< Message edited by Alamiran -- 5/11/2017 7:04:39 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 55
5/11/2017 7:50:59   
Greyor_42
Member

@alamiran

quote:

I know about the ley lines, but they GET their mana directly from the mana core. Saying that the mages don't draw in mana from the mana core is like saying someone who buys something in a shop doesn't buy a product of the factory that made the thing in question. They can't draw mana from the core itself no, just like average people can't buy everything a factory produces, even if they need it. So mages draw in mana indirectly from the mana core.


it's not like saying they don't buy a product of a factory, it's like saying they don't buy FROM the factory, which they don't, they buy from the STORE, which buys from the factory. and yes, that's literally what i said, that they don't draw DIRECTLY from the core.

quote:

And yes, the mana core DOES have a limited capacity. It has the potential to produce an infinite amount of mana, but that would take literally an INFINITY, as it can't produce infinite amounts of mana in a second. As long as it can only produce a finite amount of mana in a finite time period, it has limited capacity. It can't exhaust it's mana, because it produces it from nothing, that's what I said too, but it can only produce X mana points/second.


that's not capacity. that's rate of production. capacity is how much it could CONTAIN, which in this case, IS unlimited.

quote:

And we actually don't know how Warlic's magic works. You can compare it to a car, that produces fuel when you drive, instead of burning it. But then you would still be able to open the fuel tank and pour out the fuel, so you could use it for something else. I've always thought Warlic exhausted his mana by sending it out into the mana system, and that happens automatically, so Warlic doesn't know how it works, and thus can't find a way to do it more effectively. I don't think mana can just BURN AWAY, because I believe that mana, like energy, can never truly be lost, only turned into magic.


except we DO know how it works, because he already TOLD us in the finale of the storm war. when he casts spells, he GENERATES mana. also, you can't use the law of conservation of energy to say he doesn't burn away the mana, because then you're also saying that he doesn't GENERATE mana. which is incorrect.
DF  Post #: 56
5/11/2017 8:14:02   
Alamiran
Member

@Above I never said that they draw directly from the core, I just didn't want to waste time with explaining how they don't, as my point was simply to say WHERE the mana generated by the core ends up after coming into existence. I was not describing how the mana system works.

And capacity can also mean rate of production, at least in my language, it was easier to write too. But still, the capacity isn't infinite, the potential of production is. Then the mana core would have an infinite amount of mana inside of it, that it constantly exhausts, but never runs out of. I believe that the mana core constantly CREATES mana, like how Warlic generates mana, as I simply don't believe that infinity is a posibility. It just seems illogical to me. So the core has infinite POTENTIAL, but will only have fulfilled that potential when an eternity has passed. Which will never happen.

quote:

<Character>: Warlic... I.. you defeated them. If you have such power why didn't we avoid all this in the first place?!
<Character>: You could have defeated Nythera easily! And... and Xan?! You could extinguish him! And Drakath, and Sepulchure, and... and...
Warlic: ... and I could rule over this land? With an iron fist and woe be it to any who dare oppose me?
<Character>: Yes! No... wait... my head hurts...
Warlic: There are certain... limitations to my power. Each spell I cast, generates mana rather than expends it. If I gain too much mana...
Warlic: Every spell I cast could be my end.
Warlic: This is something I'd like to keep between us. I am not sure why my magic works as it does. That is what I am trying to find out with my research.
Warlic: Until I know for certain, I am here merely to observe and lend a hand only when needed.


I meant that we don't know the mechanics behind Warlic's magic, we know the result, not the cause. But you're kinda right about that mana/energy thing.

But you must admit, it hasn't been implied that Warlic's mana "burns away". In the battle where you fight as him, it is described as "Mana cooldown", and cooldown is by definition the opposite of BURNING away. So we don't know how that works either. If you saw a car that produces fuel insted of burning it as you drive, wouldn't you also ask something along the lines of "How does that work?"?

This is of course all just what I believe, but I think it seems likely, that if Warlic was to find out EXACTLY how his magic works on a theoretical level, his power could become similar to that of the mana core.

< Message edited by Alamiran -- 5/11/2017 8:16:16 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 57
5/11/2017 13:37:14   
Greyor_42
Member

@alamiran


"burning" doesn't necessarily refer to things like heat. "mana cooldown" is basically just another way of saying that he's naturally burning off the mana over time, kind of like how we "burn" calories.

also, yes, capacity can refer to potential, but it's all in the context. when referring to the mana core, capacity would use this definition:
quote:

ca·pac·i·ty
kəˈpasədē/
noun
1.
the maximum amount that something can contain.


which, as already proven by the smaller nexus from the first thorns quest(which was stated to have "near-infinite mana" on its own), and the small SHARD of the core from the first weaver saga(which made roirr a literal god of mana with virtually infinite power when he consumed it), IS limitless, as in, it will NEVER reach a point where it can no longer contain the mana it generates.
DF  Post #: 58
5/11/2017 13:53:45   
dragon_monster
Member

So quick question what happened with the mana after Roirr was made an skeleton if it was infinite or unlimited?

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 5/11/2017 13:54:01 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 59
5/11/2017 14:01:51   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster it all left him, remember? his body couldn't contain it anymore, which is WHY he became a skeleton. where it went after that, i have no idea.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/11/2017 14:02:37 >
DF  Post #: 60
5/11/2017 14:04:56   
dragon_monster
Member

Infinite can not really go anywhere because its infinite so pretty sure there is an limited amount of mana sure its an huge amount but still limited.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 61
5/11/2017 14:18:41   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster


quote:

Infinite can not really go anywhere because its infinite


.....that literally makes no sense..... how would it not be able to go anywhere? like you just said, it's INFINITE. which would mean it goes EVERYWHERE. also, i never said that the SHARD had infinite mana. i was using it's even GREATER capacity than a "near infinite" source of mana that is a regular nexus to show that the core it came off of was infinite.
DF  Post #: 62
5/11/2017 14:28:55   
dragon_monster
Member

Which does not make sense because infinite can not be contained in the core of an planet no matter how big it is. Can the mana core produce more mana yes but it has an limit to the mana production it does not make it more different then any other regenerating resource. Take oil its an regenerative resource but its too slow to make up for the speed of consumption. This is what the mana core is an regenerative resource but not infinite. If we can consume more then it can regenerate well its gonna go the way to all resources that can not.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 63
5/11/2017 14:48:18   
VJ
Member

@Alamiran
well now we know what happens if he creates too much mana, it did technically end him but not in the way he was most likely thinking...

which makes me wonder if everything with wargoth was in fact planned a long time ago because they did give little hints here and there.
anyways since he needs to let the amount of mana ebb away before he could safely use any more magic makes me wonder if he couldn't do research into which he could tap into the mana core should the need arise and allow it to siphon off mana from him?
Post #: 64
5/11/2017 14:53:00   
Timsii
Member

@VJ As I recall, Wargoth and Warlic's story was thought out by Warlic long ago while he was playing DoD with Artix. This was posted somewhere somewhat recently but I can't recall where I read it.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 65
5/11/2017 15:20:14   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

quote:

Which does not make sense because infinite can not be contained in the core of an planet no matter how big it is.


one word: singularities. besides, who said the mana core even GENERATES mana? for all we know, it literally is just an infinite well of pure mana at the center of lore.
DF  Post #: 66
5/11/2017 15:52:14   
VJ
Member

@Timsii
which means that they have thought up things years in advance and ways to lead into them.
then that most likely means they have book 4 actually in the works or at least have rough draft for it.
Post #: 67
5/11/2017 15:56:10   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

one word: singularities. besides, who said the mana core even GENERATES mana? for all we know, it literally is just an infinite well of pure mana at the center of lore.

Serious doubt about it for reasons that you will rebuff but in other Lore timelines its gonna run out eventually I believe its the same here also. Yeah you are gonna deny this an all because other universes do not apply here except pretty sure its not 100% true.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 68
5/11/2017 16:28:29   
Alamiran
Member

@VJ I've thought exactly the same! If he could somehow make a connection with the mana core, so that it takes the mana he generates then the more magic he uses, the more magical the world of Lore will be. He might need to live in some kind of symbiosis with the core for that to work though... which could actually result in him becoming one with the mana system just like I've said before. Still just speculation though.

@Greyor Come on now, you can't say "due to the context, it is only logical that you mean THIS when you say that word." Only I know what I mean when I use a word. I've explained to you why I used that word already. But if you just stated why you misunderstood me, then forgive me.

And singularities... I don't think that seems likely. An infinite amount of singularities. That's pretty much like the impenetrable shield and all piercing spear, or multiplying zero with infinity. They could end up having no extent, an infinite extent or something between the two. Since it is clearly the latter (for whatever reason), as the mana core clearly HAS a finite extent, then any piece of the mana core itself would also have an infinite amount of singularities of mana in it. Including the piece Roirr consumed. Which would mean Roirr had literally INFINITE POWER at the time.

I think I'm gonna go with the other explanation. Too many paradoxes in this one.

< Message edited by Alamiran -- 5/11/2017 16:36:33 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 69
5/12/2017 0:49:44   
Greyor_42
Member

@alamiran

quote:

But if you just stated why you misunderstood me, then forgive me.


yeah, it was more of why i misunderstood you. so, in a way, we're both sort of right. it's PRODUCTION capacity is definitely finite, if it even produces or expells mana to begin with, and it isn't just a hunk of sentient, virtually infinite, mana(and let's face it, with what we've encountered, we probably wouldn't be surprised if that ended up being true).

quote:

And singularities... I don't think that seems likely. An infinite amount of singularities. That's pretty much like the impenetrable shield and all piercing spear, or multiplying zero with infinity. They could end up having no extent, an infinite extent or something between the two. Since it is clearly the latter (for whatever reason), as the mana core clearly HAS a finite extent, then any piece of the mana core itself would also have an infinite amount of singularities of mana in it. Including the piece Roirr consumed. Which would mean Roirr had literally INFINITE POWER at the time.


well, technically, a "singularity is a mathematical problem where due to either someone getting the numbers wrong, or due to the math simply being impossible, the answer is "infinity". for example, the center-most water molecule in a whirlpool would revolve around the center "infinite times a second". in a sense, the mana core's size could be the result of a singularity.

also, an "infinite amount of singularities" is kind of redundant because of that, since you're basically saying "an infinite amount of infinities".

anyways, yeah, roirr probably DID have infinite power after consuming the mana core shard, and if he didn't he definitely had something close, since he DID temporarily become a god(well, until danyel used his life as a catalyst to split all the extra souls that were keeping roirr from burning away into nothingness away from him) of mana.

quote:

I think I'm gonna go with the other explanation. Too many paradoxes in this one.


but.... i LIKE paradoxes.....

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/12/2017 0:50:40 >
DF  Post #: 70
5/12/2017 2:47:03   
dragon_monster
Member

I am sorry but those souls just increased his capacity to hold more mana but not infinite mana just way more. He things he is an god the problem is that does not make him limitless in power just very very powerful. Also if the shard had limitless energy the burning will just not have ever stopped it will keep burning and burning and burning and burning his body unending.

AQ DF MQ  Post #: 71
5/12/2017 4:29:22   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

I don't really see why anyone thinks the mana core is infinite. It's huge, perhaps, but there's no indication that it is any more infinite than the Earth's core. It simply dwarfs any amount of mana anyone would be able to expend by a massive factor.
Similarly, being a godlike entity (and Roirr was not even a god) does not require infinite power.
Since there's no requirement for this given that we know that mana has an extremely high energy density, it doesn't seem like a logical conclusion to claim that the core is infinite, or even that it generates mana at all.


quote:

~original: @Alamiran
I see two legitimate reasons for that, maybe it's a combination of both:

1. Transferring mana directly to another person is probably complicated magic, and Alina, Reens, Elysia, Nythera and perhaps Cysero may have been the only people present who knew how to do it, and they were not enough to match Warlic's mana production, not even Cysero, as he usually uses his magic to create magical items, rather than using large scale elemental spells, so his direct mana exhaust is probably not that big. Besides, his magic is kinda... unpredictable.

2. It requires a lot of concentration, so they can't do it while maintaining the mana shield at the same time, meaning it would cause them to overload, as their mana capacity is probably not as big as Warlic's.

The problem with these solutions is that there is too great a potential for plot holes. Why didn't Cysero try storing the mana in a focus stone? And if some mana related process known to mages arose in a later questline, why wouldn't Warlic and Cysero know about it? Combined, they seem to know an awful lot about magic.

I get the overall impression that there is something preventing anything like this from happening. We know that Warlic's magic can be passed, as with Nythera, but notably, it wasn't destroyed upon Warlic's death.



@below
But Cysero will do something, or tell you something if you ask him to, and Warlic would have been in a reasonably desperate situation.

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 5/12/2017 4:52:15 >
DF MQ  Post #: 72
5/12/2017 4:36:47   
dragon_monster
Member

The rule we must remember is that Cysero is not consistent. So asking why Cysero did not do that or that is useless there is not explanation for what he does he just does.

@above Yeah the hero does not really like dealing with Cysero. Think of how many people we could have saved or events stopped if the hero asked him but did not. He prefers letting people die and destruction be done then dealing with the Green Mage. Cysero is an deux ex machina and well the hero does not use it.

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 5/12/2017 5:58:50 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 73
5/12/2017 14:17:13   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster


quote:

Yeah the hero does not really like dealing with Cysero. Think of how many people we could have saved or events stopped if the hero asked him but did not. He prefers letting people die and destruction be done then dealing with the Green Mage. Cysero is an deux ex machina and well the hero does not use it.


and where are you getting THAT from? especially the "he prefers letting people die and destruction be done" part, considering that's the exact OPPOSITE of hoe the hero CANONICALLY feels about people dying when they COULD have saved them, or even when they COULDN'T.

also, cysero isn't a "deus ex machina".he has access to a few of them, but he isn't one himself. and the hero DOES use the ones cysero has.
DF  Post #: 74
5/12/2017 15:50:43   
VJ
Member

@Greyor
where Cy is concerned we don't know his full power or what he can and cannot do which leaves him open to be a DEM but he is never used that way and even if he could be I don't think the Hero would use him.

all in all though not needing him to be a DEM shows great writing skill and the ability to tell a good story with out cheating, something very few shows or games can seem to pull off.
something the Japanese games/shows seem to always have trouble being able to do something with out needing a DEM.
Post #: 75
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