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RE: A quick prediction about the "end" of magic

 
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5/12/2017 16:13:38   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

and where are you getting THAT from? especially the "he prefers letting people die and destruction be done" part, considering that's the exact OPPOSITE of hoe the hero CANONICALLY feels about people dying when they COULD have saved them, or even when they COULDN'T.

Fine let me tell you what the hero should have asked cysero and he did not.

Hey Cysero can you make Caitiff the size of an and so we can crush her?

Hey Cysero can you make the size of an germ longer so we can destroy all the mutation cells in Revan?

Hey Cysero can you borrow us an chickencow titan for wars.

Hey Cysero can you send us back in time at Hunters Paradise so we can save the people there even if its an time loop I as the hero do not know of it?

Hey Cysero can you make Wargoth's flames in too an fish and keep him busy instead of an genocidal fire mage and an ice mage?

Hey Cysero can you bring us back in time before Warlic get overloaded to replace him so he does not overload?

Hey Cysero can you make us the size of an mountain so we can crush Akriloth and save us time from and people when we quest for the ice scythe?

Hey Cysero can you trow a nitroglicerin bomb on Akriloth so we do not do the above?

Hey Cysero can you send Aegis back in time before I was frozen he can absorb the ice attack of Jaania?

@above the problem with DEM existing is you have to give an reason why not use it. In case of Cysero the hero does not want to ask him. The question is why?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 76
5/12/2017 17:23:06   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

reason 1. the hero doesn't think of those things.

reason 2. those aren't things the hero SHOULD have asked, just things they COULD have asked.

reason 3. quite a few of those things would have caused MAJOR paradoxes, and time in dragonfable is fragile enough as it is-

paradox 1. if go back and save the people from hunter's paradise, we prevent entire CIVILIZATIONS from happening, and prevent tomix's birth, meaning he never becomes a soulweaver, we never meet him, and we never get his help to remove the darkness orb that was fused to vayle's soul. and who knows WHAT the ramifications would be if that happened.
paradox 2. WAAAAY too many variables to list on that one.
paradox 3. aegis only grew stronger due to us being frozen because our souls are connected, so, our SOUL being surrounded by such a powerful ice spell is what powered him up. we don't actually know what would have happened if aegis showed up and tried to "absorb" it. for all we know, it could have killed him, which then screws up both the tomix saga, AND the calamity saga finale, because then ATIX DIES. great job.


quote:

above the problem with DEM existing is you have to give an reason why not use it. In case of Cysero the hero does not want to ask him. The question is why?


.......that's not how deus ex machina work. a DEM is something that has absolutely NOTHING building up to is, and is thrown in at the last second to save a writer from the corner they painted themselves into.
DF  Post #: 77
5/12/2017 17:52:48   
dragon_monster
Member

First for someone who cares for other so much as you said asking things that would have saved lives is well the logical thing to do. Can you believe that he chose a more damaging way then one which can save everyone if you think he cares for people that much?

You paradox problem is not an problem for the hero because he does not know of the existence of the said paradox you as the player do not the hero and the hero proved with the time cake he has no issues messing with time. The hero does not know of the paradoxes the hero should have no reason why not to go back in time. So why does he not go back in time if he cares so much?

Just admit it he does not care that much to ask Cysero.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 78
5/12/2017 18:22:55   
Alamiran
Member

@Shiny_Underpants I'm not sure I understand what you mean, I was listing reasons as to why they couldn't have done something like that, which I think was because only skillful mages could do it, and they needed to concentrate on the light shield at the same time. We don't know what would be required in order to constantly transfer mana to a focus stone. Again, the five most skilled mages might have been the only ones able to do it, and if Cysero or one of the others had to do that, we would've been short one powerful mage.

As for the mana core, we were not talking about infinite POWER, but an infinite amount of expendable mana. I think it must either create mana constantly or be an infinite pool of mana, as it doesn't seem to have some sort of battery like time limit. I've already said that I think it's creating mana constantly, but as I've already said, it's just specalation. We haven't seen anything in game that implies or confirms either of our viewpoints in that matter.

@Above Who said Cysero is even ABLE to do all those things? The greatest testaments of his magical power so far have been transforming the Guardian Tower into a fish, controlling titan sized monsters and doing those "you have too much health" spells in our fight with his titan chickencow. There id NO indication that he'd be able to do anything like transform Wargoth blew the crust off a planet. Caitiff made our dragon bigger and stronger than ever and covered the whole continent in darkness. Cysero id probably nowhere near as powerful as them, and he doesn't even specialize in fighting.

As for the nitroglycerin thing, the effects of all those nitroglycerin explosions are probably highly exaggerated, as otherwise all life on the planet would be gone now. AND they only kill one monster each. AND he hadn't invented the nitroglycerin sponge yet when we fought Akriloth.

And lastly, the time travel things. Yes, he could probably do that, and the Hero doesn't know about the whole weaving saga paradox, but I'm pretty sure he does know by now that time travel in itself ALWAYS causes paradoxes of you consciously change the past. For instance, if they went back in time and prevented Warlic from overloading, the world would look so different today, Jaania would still be frozen and the Rose would never have been formed. Then the Hero would have never learned about the clawkin, dravir and fairies. And most importantly, Warlic wouldn't have overloaded, and there would've been no reason to go back and prevent it. Would he then have overloaded or not?

Seriously, I just don't get why you always seem to try to make the Hero seem egoistic and apathetic. Her clearly DOES care about Lore and it's people, and would always do what it takes to save them, just not risk causing complete chaos with a time paradox.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 79
5/12/2017 18:23:43   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

quote:

for someone who cares for other so much as you said asking things that would have saved lives is well the logical thing to do. Can you believe that he chose a more damaging way then one which can save everyone if you think he cares for people that much?


again, reason 1. the hero DOESN'T THINK OF THESE THINGS. because LITERALLY NOBODY DOES. not even cysero. otherwise, he actually could have OFFERED. but he didn't. also, i don't THINK they care for people "that much". i very clearly KNOW, because it's canonically stated. MULTIPLE TIMES. also, as i've stated mutilple times, one of your solutions IS a "more damaging way". specifically, the hunter's paradise one. in fact, SEVERAL people have already corrected you on that before.

quote:

You paradox problem is not an problem for the hero because he does not know of the existence of the said paradox you as the player do not the hero and the hero proved with the time cake he has no issues messing with time.


...he didn't eat the time cake to mess with anything. all he intended to do was find out where the harp that yulgar had made for aria's mother landed when it went missing. besides, he technically didn't mess with time anyways, since it had already HAPPENED.

also, it's not "my paradox problem" it's literally a HUGE ISSUE. and the hero DOES know about the paradoxes they've caused. in fact, they went out of their way to CORRECT a few of them, by undoing what they did to CAUSE them(for example, they returned all 8 bacon orbs).

quote:

Just admit it he does not care that much to ask Cysero.


there's literally nothing to admit, because there's NOTHING that says the hero doesn't want to ask cysero for help.

quote:


As for the mana core, we were not talking about infinite POWER, but an infinite amount of expendable mana. I think it must either create mana constantly or be an infinite pool of mana, as it doesn't seem to have some sort of battery like time limit. I've already said that I think it's creating mana constantly, but as I've already said, it's just specalation. We haven't seen anything in game that implies or confirms either of our viewpoints in that matter.


yep. there's really nothing that tells us in what exact way that the mana core is an infinite source, or even IF it is. so, at this point, literally every statement we've made about it is possible, and, by the laws of schrodinger's cat, they are all true as well.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/12/2017 18:27:48 >
DF  Post #: 80
5/12/2017 18:25:44   
VJ
Member

wait the hero managed to return all eight of them?
I thought Cy had eaten one or more of them because he didn't have breakfast...
Post #: 81
5/12/2017 18:28:51   
Greyor_42
Member

@VJ

no, cysero just wanted to grab a 9th because he missed breakfast. fortunately, the hero managed to scold cysero before he tried to eat one.
DF  Post #: 82
5/12/2017 18:29:05   
Alamiran
Member

@Above If he ate one of them, it would either cause a HUGE paradox, because then all the ones from a later point in time would be gone, and there wouldn't have been 8, or the Bacon Orb would simply be gone now. Wait, have we seen it since then?

...

Would that mean Cysero has added it's power to his own?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 83
5/12/2017 18:43:39   
dragon_monster
Member

He asked Cysero for help and chose to eat the time cake how can both of you tell me that he gives anything about time paradoxes and problems. That act proved the hero does not care about about messing with the timeline so stop with that he does not care about the timelines and paradoxes he can create and its not the only time. Cysero told him to return the orbs by the way and you better listen to the crazy mage.
Nobody thinks about this come on now its logical after you see what Cysero can do. If you really care about the people you try the best solution and Cysero has them.

@Alamiran Cysero shrunk the adventurers that complained about his prices and kept them shrunk for many years and their still shrunk. What defense anyone has from being shrunk and stepped on besides Wargoth who is the only one who showed he can increase his size making it meaningless against him?

And turning the guardian tower in an fish that is badass magic that can be applied to basically anything you make an non organic building in an organic fish well what is the limit then?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 84
5/12/2017 19:37:58   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

quote:

He asked Cysero for help and chose to eat the time cake how can both of you tell me that he gives anything about time paradoxes and problems. That act proved the hero does not care about about messing with the timeline so stop with that



okay, so what exactly did the hero do to mess with time when they went back with the time cake, exactly? the answer: literally NOTHING, becuase they DIDN'T go back to mess with time, like i already SAID. all they went back to do was find out where the harp WENT, so they could go BACK to the present, get it, and bring it to aria. in the PRESENT. thus completely invalidating that as any form of proof that the hero doesn't care about time paradoxes. besides, all that REALLY proves is that your point about the hero preferring not to ask cysero for help is WRONG. because look! he asked for help there. and that's not the ONLY time he asked for help from cysero either, so.....

quote:

Nobody thinks about this come on now its logical after you see what Cysero can do. If you really care about the people you try the best solution and Cysero has them.


no. nobody thinks of those things. and my proof is right here. besides, as we've already stated, a couple of those solutions are the WORST ones. not the best. and frankly, they're not really "logical" ideas either.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/12/2017 19:39:37 >
DF  Post #: 85
5/12/2017 23:06:35   
dragon_monster
Member

The hero did not knew that he was supposed to go back in time so that argument does not really work. What is so hard to understand it does not matter that he was supposed to go back in time he did not knew he was supposed to go back in time. If he can risk everything for a nice gesture why can't he do the same to save people?

Why would nobody think about it especially the hero when he knows how effective Cysero's abilities are?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 86
5/12/2017 23:24:16   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

quote:

The hero did not knew that he was supposed to go back in time so that argument does not really work. What is so hard to understand it does not matter that he was supposed to go back in time he did not knew he was supposed to go back in time. If he can risk everything for a nice gesture why can't he do the same to save people?


...that wasn't my point. my POINT was that the hero did literally NOTHING that messed with time when they went back with the time cake. at ALL. the hero has NEVER messed with time in a way that was irreparable, either, and they almost ALWAYS fix whatever they screw up with time afterwards. your suggestions don't ALLOW for them to fix what they screw up, AND do nothing BUT cause irreparable damage.


quote:

Why would nobody think about it especially the hero when he knows how effective Cysero's abilities are?


well, aside from you, not even the FORUM COMMUNITY had thought of things like that. simply because nobody ever thinks of those as possible solutions. JUST like nobody except cysero had thought of using the bacon orb(and for that matter, the only ones who even knew of its existence were the hero, cysero, and valencia. possibly warlic as well, but ONLY cysero knew it was hidden in the falconreach guardian tower), and literally every OTHER suggestion that cysero had made at the last minute that ended up working. because nobody even REALIZES that those are possibilities in the FIRST place.
DF  Post #: 87
5/12/2017 23:52:31   
FriendOfAFriend
Member

@Dragon Monster: You go to insane lengths to try and prove inaccurate statements about the Hero.

Him not asking Cysero the most random things =/= the hero not caring.

Don't blame the Hero for a story needing to be told. Every situation in existence could be solved by asking Cysero, but if they did that, aw shucks, there's no game.

Post #: 88
5/13/2017 0:11:52   
dragon_monster
Member

Again it does not matter it was not irreparable damage besides the time it was but the hero does not know that. That is the thing we as the player know its not an good idea but the hero does not so why would the hero not do anything with time travel to save other people? He is willing to do that to do an nice gesture and the hero unless he is dumb as a brick knows he is not the most stealthy or stealthy or knows what stealth because lets be fair he was not stealthy and he is lucky it was was supposed to happen. The hero goes from Falconrech to Lymcrest and along the way he beats half a dozen clawkings and half a dozen critters considering that he can speed blits by them if he wants or fly with his dragon over them or talk to them he chose to beat them until they feinted.
Keep this in mind.

The solution that Cysero proposed had the problem that nobody knew they exist but my sugestions are based on exisiting solutions. We know that Cysero can polymorph like no one else can. We know that Cysero has access to time travel and we also know that his nitroglycerine sponge has the power to destroy a barrier that might have overloaded Warlic well the barrier and the thing that the barries protects. This is what the hero knows also.

So why would the hero not ask Cysero. The hero is not an saint and that good of an person I think you realized also that he does do heroic things for other reasons and not caring about the people being the only thing.

Going back to the mana core why did the hero did not asked Cysero about the focus stone well its either he does not know that can be an thing or he does not really wanna ask more from Cysero or ask anything from him because I will be fair here he is scared of him and is an very big source of frustration for him. Yes the hero prefers not to deal with that even more then saving the people because there is not other explanation for not doing asking for his help.

^Exactly I know why you can not ask Cysero but there needs to be an explanation why the hero does not ask an in game one. For consistency.

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 5/13/2017 0:14:36 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 89
5/13/2017 0:16:31   
FriendOfAFriend
Member

quote:



So why would the hero not ask Cysero.


Why didn't Aria?

Why didn't Ash?

Why didn't Warlic?

Why didn't Galanoth?

Why didn't Artix?

Why didn't Alteon?

Why didn't ANYONE?

Why, Dragon? Why doesn't every single person in Lore simply just go to Cysero and ask him to move heaven and earth to solve every single problem in existence?

Because, by your explanation, the fact that they DIDN'T ask Cysero to defeat Wargoth makes each and every one of those people 'not caring'.



Post #: 90
5/13/2017 0:20:36   
dragon_monster
Member

Exactly why characters portrayed as good people do not ask Cysero to fix every single problem that appears? Can you explain to me how you considered a good people does not try to do the ultimate good and save millions and still be considered good no even worse heroic?

Where is the logic in that?

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 5/13/2017 0:22:28 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 91
5/13/2017 0:25:15   
FriendOfAFriend
Member

You're right. Everyone in Lore is pretty much evil because they don't go and ask Cysero to save the world every single time and pretty much be Lore's version of God.

You know what, actually, think about it like this, Dragon:

Jaania didn't ask Cysero for help. Neither did our Hero...

Oh no...what if we're as 'evil' as Jaania?

< Message edited by FriendOfAFriend -- 5/13/2017 0:26:41 >
Post #: 92
5/13/2017 0:32:38   
dragon_monster
Member

Joke about it but for an person considered good and heroic to not use something that can save tons of people including good friends does not make sense its a real big inconsistency and it puts his character in question.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 93
5/13/2017 0:37:14   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


Cysero is a wild card like Warlic, but in a different way. Cysero often doesn't know the consequences of his actions or the capabilities of his inventions, he could easily make a situation worse and the only time you want his help is when the situation can't possibly get any worse (e.g. SMUDD)
Epic  Post #: 94
5/13/2017 0:38:31   
FriendOfAFriend
Member

@Dragon: No, it doesn't. It really, really doesn't.

Our Hero is straight up unquestionably a good person. Literally 0 argument there and if you try to argue it (and I never say this) you're flat out wrong. There is no genuine point for 'the hero is secretly bad'. Not one.

I get it, you for whatever reason hate our Hero, want them to be a failure, want them to suck at fighting, and now want them to also not care about people. But to argue that not asking Cysero to solve every problem in existence 'puts our Hero in question'? Don't kid yourself.

If you want some in-game evidence for this innane thought, I guess you can remember that when we do stuff with Cysero, the world SOMETIMES ENDS. Do you remember any of those 'choose your own adventure' quests with him? Where if you let him do one thing even slightly wrong, the world BLEW UP? Or are we just disregarding that?

Cysero is quite possibly the strongest person in Lore, not arguing there. But if you genuinely think our Hero (you also have to think by proxy that everyone in Lore is evil for not asking Cysero for help too, which is hilarious) isn't a 100% good person (you can argue they're not successful at being good...I guess? can't say they don't try) then you refuse to...well, read dialogue I guess.

@Silver: Exactly. I don't see why this is so hard to understand :P

< Message edited by FriendOfAFriend -- 5/13/2017 0:39:56 >
Post #: 95
5/13/2017 0:48:19   
dragon_monster
Member

Yes as an player I know this again I have to point this out it could end in disastrous events but the hero does not know this. I know about what happens in make your own adventure if things go slightly wrong but the hero does not.
Do not ask an player why he does not ask help from Cysero ask why the hero the ingame hero does not what is the reason? Like it or not as far as the hero knows every time Cysero helped him brought great results. The Hero does not know the danger. See my point how do you explain a good heroic person not using the help of someone with so many abilities for great dangers?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 96
5/13/2017 0:58:09   
FriendOfAFriend
Member

quote:

Do not ask an player why he does not ask help from Cysero ask why the hero the ingame hero does not what is the reason?


Because he knows that while Cysero can make things 10x better, he can also make things 100x worse.

The point is you never know WHAT Cysero will do.

'Kill SMUDD, Cysero.'

Cysero: 'Gotcha!'

*creates being 30x worse than SMUDD to defeat SMUDD*

Cysero is unpredictable. You don't just ask him to do things because he'll do them in a way that is different than needed. The Hero knows this because they are close friends.

It's like you're forgetting Cysero is kinda insane.
Post #: 97
5/13/2017 1:01:32   
dragon_monster
Member

No he does not that is the problem he does not we the player know the hero does not know the full extent of the risks because every time he worked with Cysero he benefited from it he does not know the risks.

This is what I am trying to say to you the hero does not have the reasons we have as an player to not do certain things. He does not have the knowledge.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 98
5/13/2017 1:20:59   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

quote:

No he does not that is the problem he does not we the player know the hero does not know the full extent of the risks because every time he worked with Cysero he benefited from it he does not know the risks.


......except that they ARE aware of the risks.

quote:

This is what I am trying to say to you the hero does not have the reasons we have as an player to not do certain things. He does not have the knowledge.


......the example that @friendofafriend pointed out about the "choose your own adventure quests" thing was literally only one example of the hero experiencing the heavy risk of giving vysero free reign of any situation. there are quite a few OTHER situations. one of them was actually brought UP in this thread, that being he turned the guardian tower INTO A FISH. and they forgot to mention the bit where all the guardians inside were turned into lipless ducks at the same time.


also, the hero DOES know about the very heavy risks of messing with time. or did you completely forget that the titans of battleon quest exists?

quote:

Again it does not matter it was not irreparable damage besides the time it was but the hero does not know that.


and again. you're adressing the COMPLETELY WRONG POINT. the point i was TRYING to get across, was that the hero NEVER INTENDED TO ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD AFFECT TIME when they ate the time cake. only OBSERVE.


quote:

So why would the hero not ask Cysero. The hero is not an saint and that good of an person I think you realized also that he does do heroic things for other reasons and not caring about the people being the only thing.


except that they are CANONICALLY shown to BE a truly good person who places the well-being of the people of lore as their number one priority several dozen times in book 1 ALONE. and CONTINUE to show this trait even TODAY.
DF  Post #: 99
5/13/2017 1:25:55   
FriendOfAFriend
Member

quote:

He does not have the knowledge.


Yes he does and you are for some reason refusing to read my post in its entirety.

EDIT: ...honestly, as harsh as this may be, I don't even know why I'm continuing this. You're the same guy who thinks that Seppy being forced to not kill us despite wanting to makes him a nicer person than Jaania, so I shouldn't be quite shocked that I again 100% disagree with your indisputably incorrect opinion xP

< Message edited by FriendOfAFriend -- 5/13/2017 1:29:21 >
Post #: 100
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