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RE: A quick prediction about the "end" of magic

 
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5/13/2017 1:59:08   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

......the example that @friendofafriend pointed out about the "choose your own adventure quests" thing was literally only one example of the hero experiencing the heavy risk of giving vysero free reign of any situation. there are quite a few OTHER situations. one of them was actually brought UP in this thread, that being he turned the guardian tower INTO A FISH. and they forgot to mention the bit where all the guardians inside were turned into lipless ducks at the same time.


also, the hero DOES know about the very heavy risks of messing with time. or did you completely forget that the titans of battleon quest exists?


Okay @Greyor choose your own adventure quests really if we chose wrong we are dead if we chose right we are not why do you think the hero chose?

Now Cysero did the guardian tower in a fish thing all on his own and in the end nothing well damaging happend with lasting consequences.

How does the hero know that he messed with time in Titans of battleon? Really how? I know as a player but he does not.

quote:


and again. you're adressing the COMPLETELY WRONG POINT. the point i was TRYING to get across, was that the hero NEVER INTENDED TO ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD AFFECT TIME when they ate the time cake. only OBSERVE.


And yet that did not happened. For someone sent to observe why did he beat the bear and wolf pups? Why not avoid them or ignore them their pups. If you meet some wolf pups or bear pups are you gonna beat them until they feint? Even if you are an normal 10 year old they can do nothing to you and we where not normal.

quote:


except that they are CANONICALLY shown to BE a truly good person who places the well-being of the people of lore as their number one priority several dozen times in book 1 ALONE. and CONTINUE to show this trait even TODAY.

Yes and yet when asking Cysero as far as the hero knows that will save way more people and yet he does not? This is what I am trying to say. We know that its dangerous but the hero does not and yet he does not ask for his help in many more things while knowing the abilities of Cysero.
There are also flaws in his characters like beating beings that he can avoid or talk to them. But its our way of showing we care.

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 5/13/2017 2:00:46 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 101
5/13/2017 2:02:55   
Alamiran
Member

I just don't get why you believe Cysero would be that powerful. There's no doubt that the explosions he makes are exaggerated, a lot of things were in Book 1. I won't accept anything as canon unless we see more than one animation of it in what is clearly a gag quest. IMO the greatest power demonstration Cysero has made so far is turning the guardian tower into a fish. His power IS probably greater than the power Warlic can use FREELY, without risking to overload himself, but Warlic's TRUE power is unmatched by anyone on Lore. If Cysero was truly as powerful as Warlic, the Avatars (who probably do have some level of omniscience) wouldn't say that "There is only one mage on Lore that could rival our power,". Cysero is undoubtedly the most powerful HUMAN on Lore, but Warlic has power beyond human potential.

@Dragon_monster But Caitiff is probably too powerful to be shrunken down like those adventurers. It wielded the power of Valtrith's cape, AND was a being of doom. Having great magical power must come with some resistance to transformation magic, or all you'd have to do to defeat all magical threats would be to become good at that.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 102
5/13/2017 2:14:25   
dragon_monster
Member

@above during the fire orb saga Konnan made an barrier to protect his fortress to destroy the barier there where 3 ways for Warlic to do it but risk to overload, for Cysero with nitroglicerine to do it which would have destroyed the fortress with it and for Zorbak to do it who would have destoryed only the barrier.

Now no there is no proof there is any resistance to shrinking the hero has none for example and he is an enhanced human especially no proof for Caitiff. Doubt there is any besides making it useless like Wargoth can by increasing his size. So you make him small he gets big again.

Cysero and the penguins are the only one that know to do this and Cysero is better then the penguins he can do it for an unlimited time. Also this begs the question why did the hero not use the penguin ray against Caitiff and squash her like a bug. For avatars sake we can be gods with that ray except against Wargoth and SMUDD because they can grow in size.

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 5/13/2017 2:23:44 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 103
5/13/2017 2:38:10   
guthixnite
Member

Just to step in and make a few notes. A few years back, I recall the staff directly stating in a war thread that the DF hero is, in no uncertain terms NOT evil. That may have changed since then.

With the Interview Quest you are able to determine your own personal alignment, but this is not solid to all iterations of the Hero.

To put this out, to hopefully quell potential debate on it. The definition of hero is as such: a person who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities.

By this definition, the Hero is in fact a hero, having contributed majorly to the defeat of SMUDD and Wargoth, the various quests collecting the orbs, and by simply being admired by many that they protect. The alignment of Good/Neutral/Evil cannot be applied to the title of Hero.

The definition of Good is most applicable when addressing the hero and their actions as a noun. The definition for Good as a noun is as such: that which is morally right; righteousness.

As the hero has a significant tendency to do what they, at any given time, believe is morally right or righteous, they are in fact inclined to do good.



To step back to the intent of this thread and away from this debate.

I do not believe that it would be as simple of a task to replace the Mana Core as "have Warlic take its place" or anything of the sort.
Assuming that the Mana Core operates similar to our planet's molten core, the destruction or destabilization of it could result in cataclysmic shifts in the earth, causing earthquakes, fissures, landslides, and the likes, creating mass death within very short time, depending on the severity of destabilization.

Likewise, creatures such as Dragonkin, Clawkin, and Dwarves who are all heavily reliant on mana and/or magic could die out in mass quantities before any damage could be repaired, if not entire races wiped out, assuming that they need a constant source of ambient mana.

The End of Magic, however, may not be as outright foolish as tampering with the Mana Core, but instead rely on sealing off the ley and limiting the supply of mana to the world.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 104
5/13/2017 2:39:56   
Alamiran
Member

@Dragon_monster Caitiff was a creature of DOOM, it was incredibly powerful, and literally WAS a doom weapon. He couldn't shrink SMUDD either, because it had power beyond that of any human or normal dragon. The Hero has the power of the orbs, yes, but he is not a creature that is magical by nature. SMUDD was, Wargoth was and Warlic is. It MIGHT have worked on Caitiff, I still doubt it though.

Even if it could work, Cysero couldn't have reached Caitiff in time to do it. Also, we wouldn't NEED to shrink Caitiff down, as we would just need to get in ONE good hit to destroy Serenity's body (demonstrated by our Dragon), and then Caitiff would practically be defeated. Saying that Cysero could've just shrunken Caitiff down is like saying Caitiff could've just blown the Hero to dust with it's doom laser. He couldn't have survived that either, but SMUDD or Wargoth could. And Caitiff couldn't have survived a hit from the nitroglycerin cata-tank either, the problem was hitting it.

And Caitiff wasn't as powerful after Serenity's body was destroyed as it would seem in the battle. You must remember that the Hero was worn out from the previous battles at the time.

< Message edited by Alamiran -- 5/13/2017 2:40:14 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 105
5/13/2017 2:47:15   
dragon_monster
Member

@guthixnite what you are saying and correct me if I am wrong is that good is an subjective term not an objective fact like water is made of hidrogen and carbon? So because the hero thinks he does good he is an good person.

@above Well that and the other things also we could have asked Cysero for help. By the way Cysero was in Falconreach at the time of Caitiff so why would he could not help if asked not why not from his own volition because he has no consistency he does what he wants.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 106
5/13/2017 2:53:57   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

there's actually probably nothing more subjective in the world than the concepts of good and evil, as said concepts were invented by people PURELY to maintain the norm. however, in this case, the hero being good is actually a weird mix of subjective AND objective, as Good is a legitimate force in dragonfable, and the hero naturally tends to fight for the cause of Good. and(in my opinion) the closest thing the hero has to a signature weapon is the weapon of glory they can merge as a reward for completing the final 13th, which happens to be a Good element weapon.
DF  Post #: 107
5/13/2017 3:03:01   
guthixnite
Member

@dragon_monster When considering alignments, they are naturally subjective. There is no objective good, evil, or neutral alignments, as alignments are a reflection of personal and societal beliefs.

A good(adjective) example is dealing with the Rose. It has been shown multiple times that they plan to attempt to do good(alignment, noun) and prevent the evil(alignment, noun) of magic from hurting more people. However, the Hero has been shown to be conflicted by the Rose as a whole, as they are in fact attempting to do good(alignment, noun), while some members do evil(Alignment, noun) and the overall ideal of the Rose is inherently not good(Alignment, noun).

Furthermore, as @Greyor_42 said, Good is a literal force the the world of Lore, as is Evil, both with their own elements and connotations. However, at that point, you change from the concept of Alignment, which was my original specification, and enter a wider realm of what Good is in the world of Lore.

To limit confusion, I labeled each use of the words good and evil, just to make sure my intentions were not mistaken.




Does anyone else have an idea of what the End of Magic could entail without involving damage to the Mana Core?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 108
5/13/2017 3:19:45   
dragon_monster
Member

I get the point but it does not remove the problem of consistency you see the logic will be that with the information the hero has if he asked Cysero to help him go back in time to do an nice gesture with he should have also asked him to go back in time to change that or that or that. Why well because while others say that observing is what he wanted to do its contradicted with what he actually did. Now my in-game explanation is that he is not doing good all the time and has some selfish traits.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 109
5/13/2017 3:58:57   
guthixnite
Member

@dragon_monster Those selfish traits you see are your own personal alignment and interpretation, but they do not apply to the overarching alignment of the hero.

As for going to Cysero for every little thing, Cysero is seen as an emergency plan due to the unpredictability. Many of his experiments are seen to result in backfiring or having unsavory results. On a matter of using time travel, it has not been seen often. The quests When, Skweel, CyseRedux, Titans of Battleon, and Back to the Past are the only ones I can find. The Time Cake used in Yulgar's First Date was a spur of the moment event, when the hero asked Cysero for advice in finding the harp.

When involved gathering the Bacon Orbs, as it was the only way to counter SMUDD's ultimate orb. Skweel resolved that temporal paradox by replacing those eight orbs, which was not Cysero's idea as you so plainly claimed before. It was Dr. When's orders.

CyseRedux and Back To The Past involved the time booth while not in use of the Hero.

Titans of Battleon is the event that fractured the timeline and created the timeline of AQ, if memory serves correctly.

Among those instances, only once did the Hero create a temporal paradox, and they proceeded to resolve it as soon as possible. By going back in time to prevent disasters, they would in fact create paradoxes that would have their home realm still in trouble, as I interpret Titans of Battleon as a show of Multiverse Theory.

As a result, time travel could not be used to prevent past disasters or mass casualties without causing potential further disasters in that timeline, along with not being able to prevent them in our primary timeline. Your argument of consistency exists as a logical fallacy, as there was only one instance of the Hero using time travel that would've created a paradox, and that was literally used to save the world.



With his chaotic and thus unpredictable nature, we cannot rely on Cysero to solve problems for us. With the threat of the Rose looming with an intent to bring about an End of Magic, that chaotic nature is most likely to further fuel the Rose's fears, and push them towards doing something rash or foolish, such as attacking the Mana Core. The use of time travel, if discovered, would succeed in doing the same result. With Jaania's obsession over the what ifs she sees in her mirror, she most definitely would be able to tell that there were time when the Hero used Time Travel for personal reasons. She has already shown such a distaste of the use of time travel in Timelines when commenting on our knowledge of the Time Travel Fairies. The overall conclusion, in my opinion, is that the use of time travel would likely bring about the End of Magic sooner rather than later in the primary timeline
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 110
5/13/2017 4:15:08   
Greyor_42
Member

@guthixnite

you summed up the issue with asking cysero for help pretty good there. AND the problems with time travel.

edit: technically there are two more instances of time travel being used, and they both happen in the first weaver saga. however, they are a result of a "stable loop" or "bootstrap paradox", and thus are relatively harmless, at least, up until someone tries to mess with events inside that loop from the OUTSIDE, in which case, they kind of collapse, thus rewriting history SEVERELY by effectively erasing every event that was caused by that paradox from history. and that's the BEST case scenario. worst case(and let's face it, we ALWAYS get this in dragonfable), all of time collapses with the loop.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/13/2017 4:20:51 >
DF  Post #: 111
5/13/2017 4:15:22   
dragon_monster
Member

Like the other members you are talking from the point of the player not the hero. How does the hero know that it will not create or not issues with the timeline?
WE the player know not the hero. This is what I am trying to tell you all the hero does not know we know the hero has no reason not to use time travel since he went back in the past so its clear that he does not see a problem with using time travel for his purpose.

Come with arguments from the hero's standpoint not the player we know things that the hero does not we can not put them as arguments. Why is this so hard to understand explain why the hero will not do that with the info he has.

Do you get what I mean? Explain why the hero will go back in the past to do an nice gesture but not to save Tomix or not get Frozen? Sure we as an player know that the events have to happen as its an time loop but the hero does not know of its importance and repercussion of messing with it. I really hope someone understands what I mean.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 112
5/13/2017 4:25:55   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster


.....and yet AGAIN you forget(or are simply ignoring due to the fact that it on its own completely debunks your theory) the events from "titans of battleon", where the hero is outright TOLD by artix, cysero, and zhoom that time is severely damaged because of their little escapade. and then there was the lecture that dr. when gave us about NOT MESSING WITH TIME.


the hero went there to find the harp so that they could get it in the present and give it to aria. that's IT. they never intended to CHANGE anything, and THAT'S where problems with time travel happen, and the hero KNOWS that, as we have proven time and again.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/13/2017 4:26:19 >
DF  Post #: 113
5/13/2017 4:29:35   
guthixnite
Member

@dragon_monster The Timelines quest and When quest both summarize that we have knowledge, as the Hero, of what the consequences are. We, as the hero, put the Orbs back of our own volition. During Yulgar's First Date part 2, we seem to take care to not disturb the timeline, which is an act in character. Out of all the times the Hero has used the Time Booth, it was someone else's idea. The one time that the Hero made their own conscious decision involving it was with When, where it was a matter of do or die. Every other time, they were reluctant to use it. You claim that the Hero has no idea of the importance or repercussions of what it would result in, but the Timelines quest suggest we know of the existence of other timelines, which tends to coincide with an understanding of the consequences of doing such. If you have proof that they lack the knowledge of the consequences, by all means, produce it. Until then, it is better safe to assume that they have the knowledge, due to their actions mirroring such.

Here, I quote the paragraph implying such, directly from Timelines:
quote:

<Character>: Is this some kind of sick threat?!
Jaania: It's the remains of Swordhaven... the remains of all of Lore... in a timeline where you failed to break my crystal prison.
<Character>: But...
Jaania: No. Listen, <Character>...
Jaania: I know you have knowledge of other timelines. I know you know of the Time Travel Fairies.
Jaania: My heart isn't totally frozen. I wish there was a better way but...
Jaania: I've seen both the worst and best that magic has to offer this world, <Character>.
Jaania: I've seen it through that mirror... it's a window to other timelines. And I can view them all.
<Character>: I... I don't believe you. I can't believe you.
Jaania: It doesn't matter if you do or not. I've seen worlds where your cruelty rivaled the Mysterious Stranger...
Jaania: But more often than not you've preserved as a force of good. I wanted you to have that chance in this one as well.
Jaania: You can go.
<Character>: No... wait, this can't be right!


One possible reason for us not trying to use time travel in character is displayed in Part 1 of Yulgar's First Date, assuming we
don't know the consequences in character. They believe that Cysero no longer has the Time Booth, or that it is unaccessable, when Cysero suggests time travel.
quote:

<Character>: Oof!
Cysero: Hey, <Character>! You look like you’re thinking about making trouble… how can I help?
<Character>: Heh. I was just wondering how to find a gift that lost, oh, 20 years ago?
Cysero: That’s easy, just go back in time to before it was lost.
<Character>: You have… the time booth again?
Cysero: Nope! Better!
Cysero: I have Time Cake!
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 114
5/13/2017 4:41:34   
dragon_monster
Member

And yet he still ate the cake while knowing what can happen he still went with When in the past he still affected the past like in the time cake episode he did not even try to not affect the past he beat pups baby animals while you can easily ignore them he beat them because their babies and can not hurt you yet but he beat them. He was not careful to not affect the past he was like an tornado there he beat he destroyed he injured. All besides the beatings can be explained by accident but not the beatings. Sorry he actively affected the timeline there.

If the hero knows the dangers of time travel then why did he time traveled again and the again and then again and then again and to save Tomix and the children in Tomix saga and to save himself from being frozen he does not. You see the problem you can not not go back in time for a reason the player knows you need an reason the hero knows. What is the reason? The staff told us the reason from an player standpoint but not the hero standpoint.

The knowing the dangers of time travel went to the void as a reason because he broke it 4 times after knowing that. 4 times really now.
@above Now not having the time booth and not asking sure but after the time cake incident why did he not asked seeing that Cysero is full of surprises?

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 5/13/2017 4:56:53 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 115
5/13/2017 4:58:54   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

that's just the thing. when it comes to going back in time for the tomix saga to prevent tomix from dying(which by the way would also prevent ASPAR from dying, and thus would give him free reign of the void core), OR to prevent the stif from happening at hunter's paradise, the hero actually DOES know the ramifications. the player knowledge and hero knowledge is actually one and the same in this case. the hero IS aware of the risks of time travel, which is why they tend to refrain from using it. heck, the hero was even reluctant to use any sort of time travel to find the harp.


the first time, they LEARNED the dangers, the second time, they legitimately had no other choice if they wanted to stop the SMUDD, the third time was to REPAIR any damage cause by the second, and the fourth was with a promise to dr. when, who was ALLOWING us to go with him, that they would only observe and not interfere. and note that out of all of those things, the hero's actions were only severe enough to cause serious damage to time in TWO of them, and in one of them they actively REPAIRED the damage, by UNDOING what caused it in the first place.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/13/2017 5:04:35 >
DF  Post #: 116
5/13/2017 5:12:20   
dragon_monster
Member

So what are the risks of killing Aspar at Hunters Paradise that the hero knows of? I know the risks no more Tomix or Aegis or weavers but the hero does not. So what is the risk the hero knows of? From the point of the hero what is the risk.

Yes I know the reasons and all make sense besides the time cake and Dr When. I get those reasons and they are consistent with the character but the time cake event is not and the When adventure. These 2 had choices the other left him with no choice.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 117
5/13/2017 5:21:06   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

quote:

So what are the risks of killing Aspar at Hunters Paradise that the hero knows of?


......that tomix dies. in fact, here's the risk that the hero DOESN'T know about: tomix would NEVER HAVE BEEN BORN. in fact, at least half of the shapeless empire wouldn't have been born. think about that.
but seriously, it doesn't matter whether or not the hero knows what the EXACT risks are, the important bit is that the hero KNOWS that there are serious risks involved, and it could very easily do more harm than good. whyc is why they never go back to change anything unless they have absolutely no other choice, and can undo whatever they changed shortly after.

quote:

Yes I know the reasons and all make sense besides the time cake and Dr When.

again, those were done with the intention to NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. simply OBSERVE. the problem, is that the hero messed up. that's all. and they were LUCKY that their screw ups didn't cause major damage to time.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/13/2017 5:23:18 >
DF  Post #: 118
5/13/2017 5:34:26   
Alamiran
Member

@Dragon_monster Those two times the Hero went back to events that he HADN'T BEEN PART OF. There's a difference between going back and risking to change little thing and going back to ACTIVELY attempt to change past events, that you KNOW the end result and consequences of. In the first scenario you don't know all the details, and the changes you make become part of the original events, like with the time turner on Harry Potter, you only change things INTO the original course of events.

But if you know what happened, and know the consequences of it, then changing the past will either cause the timeline to split, meaning you wouldn't benefit from it at all, or remove the reason for you to go back in time, creating a time paradox, which might erase the people involved from existence. OR somehow cause an event to solve the paradox that would make everything go a different way, like Caitiff winning and killing the Hero, thus preventing him from going back in time to change anything.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 119
5/13/2017 5:41:44   
dragon_monster
Member

Yeah here is how it worked dr When took the Hero in an jounrey to something yet the hero wanted to dial someone in an time booth. Yeah considering the lack of phones on Lore makes you wonder.

On the time cake issue he never even had the intention to observe from the start he wanted to intervene so the date of Yulgar with that girl goes well. That was not observe that was actual intervention.

Now think about this what you said its we know the player but the hero does not know this as far as his information goes he will save innocent people and Tomix.
If he could intervene in the past so a date goes well why can't he intervene so people are saved which will not be but he does not know that.

If the reason is do not mess with the time well you do not mess with time in other occasions or there is an consistency problem. If you mess with time only if you have no choice then you do not mess with time when you have an choice because there will also be and consistency problem.

So what is the hero's reason for not going back in time?

Lets take the mana core lets say the Rose can destroy it and Warlic will replace it that will all the dwarves and most magical creatures well many of them. But you can fix that by going back in time and fixing this as far as the hero knows. So if you where the hero with his info will you go back in time or better as far as you know the hero will he go back in time?

@above its that an rule of time travel in the first scenario? The less details you know the less damage you will do because pretty sure Secundus knew all the details and yet no damage.

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 5/13/2017 5:45:55 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 120
5/13/2017 16:20:48   
VJ
Member

@guthixnite
the one who said that the hero would never be evil was Geo herself.
Post #: 121
5/14/2017 4:29:05   
Alamiran
Member

@Dragon_monster Secundus KNEW that it was a time loop. If he had done ANYTHING differently, half of him would never have been born, and the other half would've died as a child. That was a stable time loop, still technically a time paradox, but one that actually kinda makes sense. He knew that is he didn't interfere, then things wouldn't go as they did. That's like if you meet yourself from the future, and future you reveals himself to you, and warns you of an impending danger, and you then go back in time some years later to do the same thing, because you knew you had to do that, as you had already seen it happen. Like in Interstellar, if you've seen that.

It's different if you know how something goes, and then try to CHANGE it.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 122
5/14/2017 5:08:52   
dragon_monster
Member

Well it was the same result as with the hero who did not knew something goes so either you know or you do not not it does not matter that much does it now?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 123
5/14/2017 7:11:50   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


DF was the result of MQ's hero accidentally messing with time...
Epic  Post #: 124
5/14/2017 7:19:10   
dragon_monster
Member

Which is also the DF hero who knows how important we are for DF universe and time MQ hero where the only being alive as far as we know that was affected by the reset and created all the errors. From an certain point we are the GOD and yet we are not.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 125
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