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RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread

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9/2/2017 22:23:00   

Yoshi's tweet had "rouge" instead of rogue.

I'm using full Thief on the new rogue. It attacks every 0.75 seconds and has absolutely amazing crit rate and DPS. I love doing the Viper's Kiss and Opportunity's Strike timing.
AQW Epic  Post #: 501
9/3/2017 2:16:45   
Edme MacHeath

I don't think rogue is actually much better. The skill switch didn't actually change the actual class really, aside from the reduced footwork cooldown the class works the exact same as before.
I'm not sure if I really even think the reduced CD of footwork is as big of a deal as everyone seems to be making it out on, footwork was one of those skills that had an oddly loopable aspect to it, you could loop it without actually having 50% haste, I remember looping it back at lvl 40-45. I never actually have had problems looping it or with it fading. I guess the only thing different now is that it is completely impossible to fail looping it unless you purposely let it fade.

So no I don't think it's any better than before. Overall I'd say the buff was like a 2-5% to the class. (Not damage).

Although Rogue and Healer are basically the best out of the 4 starter classes. Mage is the only one with AoE so it kinda accels at farming over the others. but mage's survival is pretty pitiful. the only defense it has is the mana shield which is honestly a pretty bad skill in the current state of the game. Can we have mana shield changed? 60 second cooldown, sacrificing mana and only shielding for 20 seconds of that 60 which leaves 40 seconds of pure 100% damage taken... Well that's just bad.

Warrior could use some reduction of mana costs and/or some cooldown changes, but I think that i'd be still lackluster, It seems they wanted to make it tanky when it came out but its not really tanky.
It doenst have the best defenses or even close to it, sacrificing 25% damage and taking 50% for 10 seconds on a skill with a 30 second cooldown isn't tanky even severely outdated classes easily outtank that. perhaps just make the cooldown less and not sacrifice that 25% damage. Warrior isn't strong, fast, sustainable, or tanky and struggles with mana aswell.

I don't expect starter classes to be top tier classes, but I would like to see warrior and mage atleast be a viable pick that can actually get the job done, if not the best at it.
Healer is a decent support and due to it not being able to die really, it's a good soloing class, if a bit slow.
Rogue is a decent low lvl DPS and can actually solo quite decently.
Mage...Well I don't think its viable at farming... Perhaps mage doesn't have healing but it doesn't have defense either.
Warrior....Well I don't think I know quite what to even use it for. It's a single target but in any single target fight i'd probably use any of the other 3 classes over it.
AQ  Post #: 502
9/3/2017 7:15:34   


Yoshi's tweet had "rouge" instead of rogue.

I was always under the impression it was spelled "Rouge" until last year, granted, I'm not a native English speaker so it seemed natural to me. I was of course proven very wrong once I actually looked into what "Rogue" meant.

I have also noticed something about Scarlet Sorceress just now, it seems like the HoT only heals half of what it says it does.
The HoT tick is ~1600-1800 with full Luck, but I even though I'm above 1k hp once it triggers, I don't even get near full hp, even though my max hp is 2656.
Presumably, the damage resistance from Crimson Ritual affects the HoT, because a 0 stack HoT heals accurately, that or the HoT number is just inflated for whatever reason. There's nothing wrong with that, I guess, but it's just weird that the HoT number doesn't represent the actual amount.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 9/3/2017 7:16:57 >
AQW  Post #: 503
9/3/2017 9:13:59   

Crimson ritual shouldn't affect the heal though.
While it does increase defense it also increases magic damage by the same amount so it should even out.
I guess that means base stacks (aka 0) is all the healing you will actually get and the numbers shown on screen is what you would've gotten if not for the defense increase.
Post #: 504
9/3/2017 17:59:22   

They forgot to buff leprechaun...
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 505
9/3/2017 19:00:46   
Legendary Ash

Most likely overlooked as Classic (Alpha) Pirate and Vampire received the Footwork and Opportunity strike changes.
Leprechaun could use similar in power buffs in DoT and a significant cool down reduction for Opportunity Strike, especially if they decided to shorten the duration of the DoT.
AQ  Post #: 506
9/3/2017 20:24:20   
The Finnish Phoenix

Leprechaun has a slightly different skillset.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 507
9/3/2017 21:16:35   

I don't think they forgot Leprechaun because it doesn't have the same skills as Rogue... IIRC, some numbers, cooldowns and costs are different.
AQW  Post #: 508
9/3/2017 21:51:40   

Snow Angel of AQW GD/Q&A/Guides

I asked, and Leprechaun wasn't intended to be changed. Because of the slight differences in the skillsets and Leppy not being considered a default starter class, it wasn't subject to the same changes that Rogue got. So I guess now you've got even more differences between Rogue clones and Leppy
AQ AQW  Post #: 509
9/3/2017 22:30:04   
Legendary Ash

I think that is to say they have no immediate plans currently to change it, but the general class skill sweep later in the rewrite should boost it power up a bit.
They may surprise us with a different skill set appropriate to Leprechauns to break off the similarities forever like what they did to distinguish Pirate from Rogue, swap for some irish clover icons.
AQ  Post #: 510
9/3/2017 22:39:19   
Edme MacHeath

If people are confused about the differences between leprechaun and rogue... Well here it comes...

Irish Blessing vs Viper's Kiss.

Iris Blessing has a mana cost of 20 and viper's kiss now has a mana cost of 10
Irish blessing lasts 10 seconds and viper's kiss lasts 7
Irish Blessing has a cooldown of 10 seconds and Viper's Kiss has a cooldown of 3.
Irish Blessing applies the poison regardless of whether the impact damage hits or not. Viper's Kiss can miss.
Irish blessing deals 30%, Viper's Kiss deals 80%

Opportunity's Strike vs Opportunity's Strike (Leprechaun)
Opportunity's Strike (Leprechaun) has a cooldown of 15 seconds. Opportunity's Strike has a cooldown of 4 seconds
Leprechaun has this skill at rank 2 and Rogue now has it at rank 5.

Stilleto vs Sgian Dearg
Stilleto deals 80% damage and Sgian Dearg does not.

Footwork vs Ceili
Footwork has a duration of 15 seconds, Ceili has a duration of 20
Footwork costs 25 mana, Ceili costs 20 mana.
Footwork buffs your haste and dodge by 30%, Ceili buffs your haste and dodge by 35%

Conclusion, Leprechaun has more survival due to 5% more dodge and haste, and has abit more reliability in it's viper's kiss.
However it severely loses in general CDs and mana costs. It also deals less damage due to having longer CDs and less weapon damage values on it's skills.

Before the lvl 65 lvl cap, leprechaun had an advantage in what enhancements it could use. It could have up to 5% less base haste.
And therefore it could afford more lucky enhancements because the difference between luck and thief is generally around 3-5% dodge or haste
Leprechaun could have the same amount of dodge and haste as rogue when rogue was using thief and leprechaun was using lucky.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 9/3/2017 22:43:59 >
AQ  Post #: 511
9/4/2017 8:26:33   

I want to start a new character to replay the main story stuff but i want to know what is the best class to have at the start (bought with AC as i will not farm for it) that will not only allow me to solo the bosses (that are the biggest problem) but that will also last for the entire game, basically the best class for a solo player at any level. I use Stonecrusher on my main character (level 65) but i will probably not get a high level on this new character, so is it good at lower levels? Is there a better choice? As i said the main problem will be the bosses, but if the class can also deal with multiple targets then even better.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 512
9/4/2017 8:35:42   

Could wait until Aranx's birthday (which is this month) which *should* be when LightCaster comes back.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 513
9/4/2017 8:59:37   

Or just use Oracle while having Chaorrupter Unlocked equipped.
Healer is pretty good as a soloer too.

There's also Scarlet Sorceress which is basically free since it's just a drop from a boss.
I have no idea why they even bothered with the 2k AC version when all that's needed to get SS for free was patience.

< Message edited by XeNON_54 -- 9/4/2017 9:01:10 >
Post #: 514
9/4/2017 10:19:25   

Snow Angel of AQW GD/Q&A/Guides

You could make the argument that pretty much every 2k AC class can be had for free with patience. I understand with SS what you're getting at since it's a monster drop (let's hope for more of those!) and doesn't require nearly the amount of time as, say, repping two factions and ranking a class to get another class, but all you really need for those is enough patience too

A problem with the people in this thread is that a lot of us are at or near the level cap, which means classes that work well for us with our enhancement choices may not work as well at lower levels. Lightcaster probably would still do fine at lower levels, but it'll perform differently than we're used to. Lower haste, lower damage, etc. means we may overestimate any class's capacity to do at a low level what we can at a high level.
AQ AQW  Post #: 515
9/4/2017 10:31:14   

For lower levels it's impossible to go wrong with Oracle. It's what got me through majority of the Chaos Saga, sometimes solo, when I was around level 30-40. It's a bit slow, but 90% of the time it will get the job done, atleast solo wise. Of course, once I completed all the sagas, Chaos Slayer was my main class for more than a year iirc.
AQW  Post #: 516
9/4/2017 11:09:26   
The Finnish Phoenix


A problem with the people in this thread is that a lot of us are at or near the level cap, which means classes that work well for us with our enhancement choices may not work as well at lower levels.

Classes should have the same relative strength to other classes at all levels for the most part. The exceptions would be skills that involve fixed values/effects that don't grow with level, such as Abyssal Angel's Aphotic Overdrive "maxing out your Haste" where max haste is presumably the same fixed value at all levels. This would mean that the haste boost would be much more dramatic at Level 1 where your base haste is low than at Level 85 where your stats are much higher and closer to the maximum. I'd imagine that this would result in Abyssal Angel losing some ground at higher levels, but I'd have to test again to be sure.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 517
9/4/2017 11:39:43   

@The Finnish Phoenix
The biggest difference for most classes would come from the crit regen model, because your hp and crit damage does not scale proportionally (thanks to how high crit damage gets with enough Luck stat), which is why that regen model is preffered nowadays.
If you were to take Archpaladin as an example (which would otherwise be the perfect choice for going through any story boss at lower levels), you would probably see a big difference in mana sustain from lvl 20-30 compared to 60+ and when you add in the fact that the so called "mage manasplosion" is slightly unreliable (take Lightcaster as a perfect example), many of the classes with that regen model can be troublesome at lower levels.

I still have my doubts that any class would be able to solo certain bosses like Tibicenas and Lionfang at any lower than lvl 40, with the exception of a few classes like Archpaladin, Scarlet.

All that being said, I still think Healer, Oracle, Scarlet and Archpaladin will be safe bets as low level soloing classes.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 9/4/2017 11:53:07 >
AQW  Post #: 518
9/4/2017 11:58:14   

ArchKnightshade of AQW GD/Q&A/Guides

There are also some skill rotations that are only consistently possible at a certain level of Haste, such as Rogue looping Footwork or ShadowStalker of Time using damage from previous nukes to boost the next one. Most classes with Haste-boosting skills tend to cap you out just from passives and skill effects, though, so it's not really as big of an issue as the mage regen model thing.
DF AQW  Post #: 519
9/4/2017 12:22:01   
The ErosionSeeker

For lower levels, you would pretty much want to go for DBSK or Necro because both have MP regen skills, and given the Necro buff, that's probably a solid choice for soloing, anyways.
DF AQW  Post #: 520
9/4/2017 12:42:01   

Snow Angel of AQW GD/Q&A/Guides

Now that I think about it, is there any mana regen model that isn't less effective at lower levels? Mage has the lower damage-to-health ratio, Rogue you dodge less, Warrior you attack more slowly and crit less... I never really thought much about it before but the mana regen models all seem to be, at their base, inherently biased towards higher levels. Regen gimmicks like LePally, DBSK, or Necro will have the same effectiveness, as 30 mana is 30 mana regardless of being level 1 or 85, but those are still built onto a base model that's less effective for lower-level players.

So here's an interesting point for discussion: if we were to abandon the different mana regen models and just go to one single one (regen gimmicks from skills can stay though), how would it work? Is there a model that wouldn't be biased towards higher level players? Seems like anything that relies on stats wouldn't be, but I'm not sure what that leaves, other than a gross, purely time-based regen model.
AQ AQW  Post #: 521
9/4/2017 13:31:46   

ArchKnightshade of AQW GD/Q&A/Guides

Well, attacking more slowly means you have less Haste, which would also affect how long it takes for your skills to cool down (and therefore the rate at which you use mana), so Warrior's main benefit at higher levels is the increased crit chance, which should more than make up for the increased dodge chance. I guess maybe DeathKnight and DeathKnight Lord might perform better at lower levels because they get mana from DoTs, which aren't Haste-dependent and tick more times when you have longer CDs. Dragonlord's Cursed Blood also does more damage with low MP despite the manasplosion model. I think RBM's mana model might be level-independent?

As for a universal model, the only thing I can think of is gaining a static amount of mana per AA, even if it crits or misses/is dodged.
DF AQW  Post #: 522
9/4/2017 13:47:10   


I think RBM's mana model might be level-independent?

Pretty sure it's just mage regen, but the auto attack gives a static x amount of mana, so yea, no matter level, your mana would probably be about the same, which means you shouldn't really run out of mana, ever.


As for a universal model, the only thing I can think of is gaining a static amount of mana per AA, even if it crits or misses/is dodged.

It wouldn't be a good idea though, because so many classes are built upon certain regen models, so changing that up would mean basically reworking every class, if they want classes to feel the same as they do now. It would also mean classes with faster AAs would gain more mana by default.

I still think it's fair enough that higher levels = higher mana gain, the only real issue is coming from the mage regen model + massive crit modifiers. I doubt most Warrior and Rogue regen classes would feel radically different from lvl 30-80, they would definitely be less efficient, but nothing too major, Mage regen classes, on the other hand, IS less effective by default, some of them would probably still be able to manage, but some would have severe mana issues.
AQW  Post #: 523
9/4/2017 19:29:21   
Legendary Ash

Actually a universal regeneration model is what has been needed for a long time, a fusion of all the different models, some classes with moderate DoTs don't get mana per tick because it has impact damage.

The Warrior model is built for effect or low impact skills and receiving hits, Mage is built to reclaim mana per damage skill, Rogue is built for evasion and hp regen, DeathKnight for spreading damage to many DoT ticks.

Arguably a reasonable change to Mage's model can occur, make damage buffs and debuffs affect mana regeneration, since its based on impact after all.
Furthermore Player Hp may be tweaked later if there is a damage surge in Monsters with recent PTR buffs to our damage disturbing the status quo between the two variables.
Its safer to cease feeding the high number craze with Mage model which is broken to certain extents, and prepare for engine functionality related changes.

With a baseline for expected Critical chance and Evasion, we can lower the 9 mana per dodge to 6, so thats still +3 to the mana of hits received, like +3 mana of Critical strikes compared to a normal strike assuming Crit and Evasion chance are similar.

Basing skill rotation on standard Auto attack, one skill every 2 seconds, resulting in a Cool down of 8 seconds for each skill to maximize damage and efficiency, it would cost 10 mana per 200% damage.

Which is the same as basing skill rotation on Global cool down, one skill every 1.5 seconds, resulting in a Cool down of 6 seconds for each skill to maximize damage and efficiency, it would cost 7.5 mana per 150% damage.

Auto attack is worth 100% while skills 200% per 2 seconds, this ratio could be applied to 2 mana per Auto and 4 mana per skill whether it deals damage or not. The are very few DoTs that are one tick, such ones may not be truly in the spirit of damage over time but rather a form of damage delivery such as ShadowWalker's echoing attack, the minimum of 2 ticks is equal a skill's 4 mana, encouraging over time scenarios.

In battle mana regeneration will be 6 from Auto and 8 sec skills, 3 mana per hit received, .3 Crit per Auto and if applicable skill, .3 Evasion assuming 10% chance.
Not presented below is 1.5 sec Auto adds .66.
1- (9.6/10) = 4% variability necessary to sustain
1 - (9.9/10) = 1% variability necessary to sustain

As above but 6 sec skills
1- (11.03/10) = -10.3% variability buffer
1- (11.33/10) = -13% variability buffer

Departure from this model can easily occur by factoring 10% to 20% passives boosting haste, critical chance and evasion excluding the unpredictability of skills and support buffs in group combat.

< Message edited by Legendary Ash -- 9/4/2017 20:21:41 >
AQ  Post #: 524
9/4/2017 19:56:44   

Hello guys.

I have a question.

Due to the passage of time, what were the classes that received a buff?
AQW  Post #: 525
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