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7/18/2017 12:46:06   
Mr. Uber

With the release of the new no-drop subrace armors, my original opening point for this suggestion is no longer valid. However, it still does pose the problem that being one of cursed blood is all pros and no cons, making being pure human lacking in terms of strategic gameplay compared to its counterpart. Because this is still the case, this suggestion is to focus on a way to balance ALL the races to promote diverse gameplay.
The idea actually comes from each the monsters of that sub race; I didn't plan on doing too much or getting too in depth because this is supposed to be something "'relatively' simple to implement".

Subrace solution

Human Vampires:
Every turn your opponent makes a save roll. If they fail, you will decrease their BtH (and maybe defense as well?)[color=red*. Else they resist this effect**. The decrease amount increases with the level (1-10) you are as a vampire. Decrease will be less than the monster's version because you are not a fully endowed vampire, and even less when not wearing vampire armor.

* - Your dark aura overpowers your opponents will! (- to BtH, - to Defence)
** - Your opponent's strength of will overcomes your presence!

Human Werewolf:
Your attack may inflict primal Fear (% chance of not acting)* on your opponent. They can resist this**. The percent amount increases with the level (1-10) you are as a werewolf. Decrease will be less than the monster's version because you are not a fully endowed werewolf, and even less when not wearing werewolf armor.

*Your savagery fills your opponent with primal Fear!
**Your opponent stands courageously before your savagery!

Human Werepyre:
The idea is that the werepyre is supposed to be of superior blood than its predecessors and if or when the sub races get a permanent boost to stats, it will be unaffected by the power the lesser forms' blood grants and a combined boost in stats that each of the lesser forms grant. Less resistance when not wearing werepyre armor.

Constant (passive) resistance to effects that lower BtH and defense

Constant (passive) resistance to primal Fear

Human Dracopyre:
The idea is that the werepyre is supposed to be of overwhelmingly superior blood than its predecessors and if an opponent tries to take such blood without having strong enough blood themselves, they will not be able to handle it. The reason that the dracopyre doesn't also have the resistance against effects that lower BtH and defense and primal Fear is because (more than anything, balance) they are effecting the dragon and human portion of your blood, which is why you only have resistance and not immunity as a werepyre because of your human portion.
In trying to transform into a dracopyre whilst not at least being a werepyre:

NightReign: "Without a slow and gradual transformation via my blood over a long time, a body as pitiful as yours wouldn't handle the internal war that such power creates."... "the lesser war of becoming a Werepyre will at least give you a CHANCE of surviving my great gift!"

Constant resistance to attacks that drain health.

● Chance to cause poison status that causes harm damage to opponents that drain health (or to be simple, any time you take damage?); effects last until save is made, save is not based on stats but how much health opponent has (less health means less blood which means you probably drained the cursed blood which means they won't be affected by it anymore). Chance increases with level (1-10) you are as a dracopyre and race trying to drain health and level and/or power of poison is decided on the race of opponent, should work like a trigger, but for the sake of explaining why, I will list categories that it wouldn't trigger towards.: (I'm not sure how to scale poison level and/or power to actual damage but I can give a reference to scale from)
ghosts/spirits/demons/elementals= 0% chance (because they are most likely draining pure life essence and not blood)
humans/aliens: 99% chance; (should be the strongest form of the poison since, more often than not, most humans and aliens don't drain health, and if they did, well even a werepyre only has a "chance" of surviving)
monsters/animals: 90% chance; (there's a reason werewolves and vampires usually feed from humans)
vampires/werewolves: 80% chance; (I'd say this is the reference that the poison to the other races would scale from (either weaker or stronger); would be as powerful as the ( from the whispering raiment "RAIN OF DISASTER") lvl 90 prismatic burn )
werepyre: 40% chance; (because as NightReign says, having werepyre blood only gives you a "chance" of surviving. Therefore among all the werepyres that you slay even as a mere human should not all be strong enough to take in dracopyre blood)
dracopyre: 10% chance; (only because another dracopyre might not be of the same strain of dracopyric blood. As we can see, there are more than one type of dracopyre and if you wish to defect to the other, they instruct you to cure yourself first to obtain their specific strain)

Every turn your opponent makes a save roll. If they fail your attack may inflict Disease. (Needed something for werewolves)

Lastly, I think there should either be a greater chance to run into one of the few monsters that do more damage if you are of these sub races and/or have a small degeneration of health (at least while not in the respective armor of the sub race) since you aren't exactly feeding, and regaining only a portion of the lost health when you defeat an opponent equivalent to the level 7 skill of the ShadowSlayer/NightHunter classes. The higher the transformation (werewolf/vampire -> dracopyre) the stronger the degeneration of health. This makes being pure human some what feasible without making the cursed blood too handicapped.

As a suggestion inside of a suggestion, I do not understand how coding works, but like I said my goal is to make this as simple and easy to implement as possible. Would it be advantageous in that regard for this to be a temporary spell like how when you defeat a sunray or moonray by overloading it with its elemental affinity and you gain an extra in battle spell that squeezes in along with the other 8 in your inventory?
If so each spell is named after the sub-race followed by "'s power", example: (vampire's power), cost is free and drains health each turn like suggested above, does not take a turn, lasts an unrealistic amount of turns to the point where one would not have to worry about having to reactivate it. Since it is a temporary spell, players will have to go back to their lair to get the spell back every time they log out and in, should nothing difficult more than a simple dialogue.
In my mind this would make it easier so that players won't be able to somehow glitch the game and get the perks from all races since the effects will be based off a spell that will disappear and change just as if getting another temporary spell.
Ultimately, I would like it as an automatic thing, however I figure it would be simpler for the time being for it to just be a temporary spell and then get implemented later as permanent effects that change with your race.

In the game, if you're a rouge/ninja/assassin or anything in between, your main character stat attribute is DEX, which makes sense and systematically correlates to that sort of fighting style. However, the only weapons that a rouge's stats can benefit off of are bows, guns, and spears/halberds. As an assassin, I own more spears than I do daggers and knives; an assassin systematically plays like a spartan which is counterintuitive towards our intentions.

Dagger solution

My short suggestion on this is to have most daggers/knives (that aren't thrown) have the same effect as the Hunting horn, where as they may attack with melee, however their stat bonus is based off of DEX instead of STR. This will also give daggers/knives some uniqueness and versatility instead of just being statistically weaker but slightly (but still not worth it) more accurate swords.
Also, just as an ascetics pleaser; maybe make some of the katana's stats draw from DEX as well, considering it was mainly the sword play, rather than the strength that made users of the katana so deadly.

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 2/12/2018 0:17:57 >
DF AQW  Post #: 1
7/27/2017 16:34:08   
Mr. Popo

Very interesting! I've always been disappointed and angry that there is no real significance or relevance pertaining to which sub-race you are. I agree, this should be expanded on in the future, but in my opinion this gives a simple and easily accomplish-able option and suggestion to achieve a much needed aspect to the game for the time being! Full support!

< Message edited by Mr. Popo -- 8/22/2017 10:49:16 >
Post #: 2
7/27/2017 16:44:55   
Mr. Uber

Haha, thanks! To be honest I got a little more technical and into it than I had originally planned even though I was trying to keep it simple. Though I kept thinking of all the things people could possibly ask. And ways to keep it as easy to implement as possible.
I appreciate the support though, I hope and welcome any and everyone that reads to leave a comment, whether it be a suggestion or more support!

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 7/28/2017 17:13:15 >
DF AQW  Post #: 3
7/28/2017 0:17:25   

Here's a thought: We have skills for some armors, but why not have skills in our base form instead of keeping it greyed out? We have new passives because of our subrace like you said, but also new [skills] in our human form [?] Maybe on one side there's an icon for accessing subrace skills within the [skills] button. The transformation changes your current armor to your subrace form and unlocks the subrace skills you can use when transformed. In a way it's like another alternative form that serves as an temporary armor that we can use to battle. The only difference is that this is an "innate" skill as opposed to an external armor you can wear. You can compare this to buying a pet and summoning a pet. In this case, it's like summoning your subrace form instead and swaps your current armor[?]
Post #: 4
7/28/2017 9:15:54   
Mr. Uber

From what I have read, it already seems though as if better subrace armors are already in the making. However, looking at the FSI:

On another note: subraces are subraces, not classes. Classes will not be made of subraces, and subraces will not be made of classes. The same is true for races.
Regarding having subrace abilities ("plural") (other than passives) sounds very close to making them into classes. Also, having them accessible from the no-drop armor (guardian, ultra guardian, armor of awe) skills where that menu is usually greyed out would be weird if your elemental resistances didn't correlate with your sub-race (i.e: having your guardian armor resist light but being a vampire and doing darkness skills). The only armors known to do something like that are one's that resist dual elements (Ultimon armor, Moglord Tortoise).
As for the skill equipping another armor like how the Conjure Shadow spell has the Shadow Templar option that equips an almost equivalent to Ultimon's or Shadow of Doubt armor; an armor that is not a class armor has a skill that could equip another armor that scales with you (not potentially becoming obsolete) would probably be a balance issue since that's an extra armor that takes up no space. At least with the Shadow Templar armor, its inside of a spell that takes up a spell slot, same with any armor that can come from a misc. I'm not saying I wouldn't like that, though I don't think it's feasible.
Lastly, I know you didn't mention it, but to be able to access the skills or the transformation from an armor that already comes with a skill would probably cause a lot of problems as well.
Perhaps the best thing to fit what you're looking for would just be a whole new selection on the actions menu.:
|_Ally assist_|
|Race skills|

(although the actions menu already seem too long to add anything else to it), or be a part of the ally assist option "transform", or next to the potions in the items menu, or to have the subrace transformation armor to completely replace the no drop armor as soon as you get the "curse".
However, I don't want to make the subraces too buff, I want there to be some benefit to being a pure human as well.

I like the way you think though, however like I said, things related to this are already in the making "from what I've read and heard". What I'm suggesting is something in the meantime before they get into trying to have certain subraces provide passive bonuses to stats that fluctuate when you change between them and trying to balance that, updated subrace armors, etc..

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 7/28/2017 16:47:33 >
DF AQW  Post #: 5
7/29/2017 17:05:02   

Ah, it isn't possible to implement it under [skills]? I thought all skills from the skill button would be coded so when you click on it, it would be like the class skills, where you have options to choose what you want to click on. Instead of just implementing the skill button that directly opens the armor skills, it opens another menu - the option to select between [Subrace skills] or [Armor skills], or to go back.
Post #: 6
7/29/2017 17:07:46   
Mr. Popo

I agree, I feel like it would defeat part of the purpose if there were no cons or super buffs to being a vampire, werewolf, werepyre, or dracopyre. Because then being human would be very unrealistic, especially when becoming each subrace is so ridiculously easy.
Post #: 7
7/29/2017 17:26:08   
Mr. Uber

I'm not against it, other than making the subraces too powerful, and I don't know but that could cause every armor with an armor skill needing to be recoded to support that, which would in turn cause the suggestion to take even longer to get implemented. And think, every time you change subrace, EVERY armor with an armor skill would have to update to verify which subrace you are so that you would be doing the skill that correlates with your subrace.

Mr. Popo

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 8/16/2017 16:21:11 >
DF AQW  Post #: 8
8/23/2017 12:05:19   

The Question
(AQ Sugg)

Don't think we should over complicate things on sub-races having this many skills or abilities added to them. It does sound good conceptually, but given how far we've progressed into the game's content.

We'll have to see what comes next, and see if some part of it would be integrated. Or maybe conceptually.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 9
8/23/2017 12:45:07   
Mr. Uber

Haha, that's the first time you've ever remotely complimented one of my suggestions, thank you!
I tried to keep the idea simple but I ran into a problem with what the ability of the werepyre and especially the dracopyre would be since their monster varient don't really have any unique qualities other than the HP draining and regeneration effects which I wanted to stay away from entirely.
I don't know if you say it because you feel that it is, at least potentially, or just as a general rule, but how is it "over complicated"? If not then my further explaination is irrelevant.
But in case you are, allow me to provide a defence; the coding and concepts for a lot of them already exists and is in-game. And regarding them having "many skills and abilities", I think that all together it looks a lot but individually they don't. Simply put:

Vampires potentially lower opponents BtH. Enemy vampires and the black cat guest (which can be treated like a summon spell) already do this.

Werewolves cause a varient of fear. A good number pets, miscs, and weapons already do this, not to mention enemy werewolves.

Dracopyres just have a resistance to fears. Spells and miscs already do that along with paladins and liches already having it as a passive.

Dracopyres cause poison when hit. To be fair, this IS unique but can be related to the concept of backlash.

I got really in-depth to prevent them from sounding more powerful than intended, like giving werepyre resistance for only specific fears. To make it unique, but all the extra information made them seem a lot more than they actually are. If you really look all the extra stuff are really nerfs.

I suggested potentially they be accessed in the form of a temporary spell. Moonwalker's grace spell gives a passive boost to a stat. Certain healing spells can give passives to increased elemental resists, resists against certain statuses, etc.. So the concept of getting abilities through spells already exists.
The concept of health loss per turn is present with the blood orb misc, the predatory vampire form skill and the sacragon monster and as I explained, regaining the health is equivalent to the shadowslayer/NightHunter class ability to regain SP. Those are to further drive the mission of making it matter what your subrace is so that even being pure human is realistically feasible.

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 8/23/2017 16:58:58 >
DF AQW  Post #: 10
9/3/2017 9:39:09   

The Question
(AQ Sugg)

It over-complicates things because of how much perks/content is being added into the sub-race. Seeing it (even briefly), already speaks volumes about how big this will be. Because AQ is a purely combat-based game, and having any changes whatsoever to any of the parameters in combat, will affect everything - it's a chain reaction.

Hence, why every update to the game's engine and whatsoever is critical and needs a lot of planning.


Vampires potentially lower opponents BtH. Enemy vampires and the black cat guest (which can be treated like a summon spell) already do this.

Take for example of the above, if being in a subrace of a vampire lowers the enemy's BTH, this is in itself a huge buff to the players' side, without any balance on the enemy's.

Remember how we have something like a 75% hit-rate for players? Likewise, mobs themselves also have a certain hit-rate they are supposed to do to the player as well. Changing that as a whole is a huge difference, even if it is "-2 BTH" passive.

Then also, what about the human neutral race?

The point is, that the game has progressed so far in its content and such. Unless the game was built upon the concept of sub-races being an important choice in a players' gameplay (see how other games have sub-races affect the classes they choose differently), then ya, this idea would be great. But since we've progressed so far in one direction already, changing a core concept would need a rework of the game itself as a whole.

This is my two-cents only, as I'm experiencing this in another game that I play for over a decade as well; where the game is about to take a huge turn and rework one of its core game contents, which will change how the game works in every aspect - economy, tiering, drop systems, etc.

Class bonuses

Take for example, Excommunicated's thread as well. All these little suggestions sounds GREAT. But it will take an entire rework of AQ itself to have happen. Hence, it does become overly-complicated to have it mesh with the current one.

It would in the end, be better off creating a new AQ from scratch. Just saying.

< Message edited by Rorshach -- 9/3/2017 9:42:21 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 11
9/4/2017 20:11:20   
Mr. Uber

I appologize if I'm having a hard time understanding, I think I get most of it though. But is that point relevant even if they are implemented in as a free quick-cast spell? The Big Dictionary staff has a spell called Panoply which gives a +MRM which would, as far as I understand, be the equivalent to a -BtH on an enemy. and the Moonwalker's grace also (technically) boosts MRM due to the boost in DEX and DEX/8=+#MRM. Obviously those examples were tailored towards the vampire since that was the example you used.

As far as the pure human, their buff comes from not having to suffer from the constant health drain as well as the weakness to paladins or any enemies that do more damage to creatures of the night which I also suggested should be more in abundance, seeing as you should be being hunted. As we all know in supernatural lore, having the cursed blood comes with great power but also weaknesses, that was how I balanced it with the pure human build. Making it mostly unfeasible for annihilator builds or for people who don't want to have to deal with extra things going on on their character while they're trying to have a simple battle. Being a creature of the night, in my vision is like fighting the challenge battle for the Wicked King, though not nearly as bad, but enough to emphasize how annoying it can be and sometimes not worth it to have such a curse hanging onto you.

Then would you say this suggestion is doomed, since as you said, IF this is ever explored, it would either have to become a whole other AQ game or take so long that (what has happened to me plenty of times before) this thread would guaranteed get removed from not being regularly active?

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 9/4/2017 20:34:10 >
DF AQW  Post #: 12
9/5/2017 7:49:09   

I'm a little unsure about this. The idea makes sense thematically, but I'm not sure we need any further free bonuses. Maybe we could balance this out with new weaknesses. Make it sort of balanced so we're not making ourselves more powerful than we already are. (like giving options rather than boosts).
AQ  Post #: 13
9/6/2017 13:07:14   
Mr. Uber

It's invariably difficult to create options without some form of boost, even a basic elemental skill would be considered a boost.

If by "new weaknesses", you're referring to things that aren't included in the already existing lore of each creature of the night, like werepyres being weak against laundry detergent, I don't think that's a feasible suggestion due to like I mentioned, the lore of each of them already existed, AQ just copied from them. If you're referring to new enemies that have items that trigger towards the sub-races, I'm actually an advocate of the idea, I've mentioned that I feel like there should be an increase of the chance to run into paladins and enemies that trigger against the cursed blood. However, as far as coming up with new mob ideas specifically, that's not something I'm really focused on right now.

As of current, none of the sub-races do anything, most players opt to be a dracopyre simply because lore-wise, its the strongest, and plus once you get there people just don't get themselves cured so they leave it. If we just focus on weaknesses, that's not a solution to the problem, that's going to the other extreme because if there's no buff to the sub-races and only extra weaknesses, then everyone will just opt to be pure human to avoid the troubles. I'm not against weaknesses, I feel that's the only way to make being a pure human feasible and I included my own ideas on how to accomplish it in the thread.
DF AQW  Post #: 14
9/7/2017 17:26:25   
Lord Tenebros

And if we take into account bosses like Ryn the Undying and the new Sylith, being an Undead subrace HURTS more than helps you.
Post #: 15
9/9/2017 12:18:40   
Mr. Uber

The release of the updated cure quest makes me wonder if that was because of my suggestion where I said:

the sub race you choose (werewolf, vampire, werepyre, dracopyre) has no relevance other than allowing you to play certain quest lines for each faction, which is a moot point because curing it and joining the other is quite honestly one of the easiest quests in the game

IF that is the case, then I'm a little upset that the unintended point of my suggestion was taken. Though it has become harder, I don't think the quest has become "hard", it just takes more time now..
DF AQW  Post #: 16
9/10/2017 5:10:39   

The Question
(AQ Sugg)

Nope. They were all planned before your suggestions came out - don't worry.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 17
9/10/2017 16:14:19   
Mr. Uber

I guess it was just a weird coincident, but Rorschach, you never answered my questions regarding your comment before this last one?
DF AQW  Post #: 18
9/11/2017 9:50:09   

The Question
(AQ Sugg)

The boosts we get from external items and such are already planned. Yes, we do start off having the 75% thingy as a base. Adding in other considerations of boosts from external sources will only go so far - such as thresholds due to balance standards.

I'm not against your suggestion, as stated explicitly before and now also repeating it again.

Just that pushing for such buffs will interrupt the balance of things currently. If they do push through, even more planning needs to be done. Thematically, its a good idea since sub-races are lacking. But just because they are lacking and outdated, doesn't mean we should rush content out without first testing and balancing.

Hope this clarifies what I'm trying to put across to you.

Aside from that, Chaotic pretty much summed and answered what I wanted to say, so I didn't see a need to reply.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 19
9/11/2017 12:16:38   
Mr. Uber

Then would you say this suggestion is doomed, since as you said, IF this is ever explored, it would either have to become a whole other AQ game or take so long that (what has happened to me plenty of times before) this thread would guaranteed get removed from not being regularly active?

Which is why I'm kind of a "one suggestion at a time person" because in the past I've had threads get deleted due to inactivity for extended periods of time. It always made me feel so distraught when all the time and effort put into each and every single one of those suggestions got deleted all at the same time.
DF AQW  Post #: 20
9/12/2017 10:32:40   

The Question
(AQ Sugg)

Uh.. it's the trash compartment thingy deleting threads that are inactive. Can't be helped there.

But ya, I've been thinking about revising the "1-person-1-thread" rule, so it'll be better. Problem is, then we'll need a structured way for players to suggest stuff that is in a neat and organised manner. Such as some sort of 'tag' at the start of their thread title, like:

[Armour] MC - Water - "Pirate of Ol'"

Anyway, just because your entire suggestion doesn't go through, we hope it doesn't dissuade you (or others) from trying. Because in the past, we've seen some parts or thereof of players' suggestions coming through in some way. It may not be the entire and original suggestion, but after much discussion and such, some do become viable and feasible enough to be implemented.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 21
1/3/2018 21:22:15   
Mr. Uber

I updated the thread to accommodate the relatively recent update of the no-drop sub-race armors.

Plus a new suggestion at that!
DF AQW  Post #: 22
2/12/2018 0:12:14   
Mr. Popo

Yeah with the release of the new subrace armors made the concept of your original suggestion on the matter virtually obsolete, however I see that you've adjusted it so that is is still somewhat feasible instead of just dropping the well thought out idea all together.

As for the new suggestion pertaining daggers, I mean, well, you said it all! I completely agree, I feel like it would put a nice little detail in the game that would accomplish exactly what you described. Keep up the good suggestions!
Post #: 23
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