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If there were a new questline, what should comprise it?

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7/21/2017 13:03:59   

What aspects of a story would you wish to see in Dragonfable quests, and by extension, stories in general?
That's right, it's time for my biannual market research writing thread.

This discussion of storyline is the main intention of this thread, however discussing several storytelling choices is a good way to start. Feel free to view the suggestions of discussion as fluid; there are enough of them that you, my dear reader, should have a fairly good impression of the topic.
To kick it off, what genres would you find interesting?
Would it be horrific themes surrounding a tragic story, with depressing backstories, just when you thought it couldn't be more relentless?*[1]
Would it perhaps be a comedic adventure, set around a convoluted storyline with equally convoluted characters?*[2]
Or mystery, romance, or a combination of such... and the list goes on.

Would plot-based or character-based stories be the most interesting? How do you like these features to intersect in a narrative? Should stories follow an intricate plot, or get into the head and heart of a character as they make their way through the world?

How, then, should the details be incorporated into the story? Do you like to have to read between the lines a bit, into what is almost fridge logic*[3], or is it considerably more interesting if the dialogue hints at things? How might these techniques be combined?

Which style would suit your tastes? While Dragonfable is fantasy, other stylistic decisions can impact on the story. Is hard, technological science fiction your jam? Or does realism enhance your experience of the narrative, through accurate scope and portrayal of people? Or is it something else entirely?
And how would these work within Dragonfable?

Also consider what types of endings you like to see in a story. It could be a complete curveball, Roald Dahl style ending that essentially creates an unspoken narrative the length of the original, but that may be too frustrating for you. Perhaps it is a new beginning for some of the charactersó or remaining characters, if you're feeling especially bloody mindedó instilling hope instead.

The effects of these decisions could have any level of effect, from a small theme in a character's emotional arc to the unifying theme of an entire storyline. Feel free to share any details, however strange they may seem; in my experience the obscure, almost thoughtless details are so often the best of them.
Dragonfable is a quite cinematic game, but the format is quite unrestrictive in terms of whether quests are dialogue heavy or action (cutscene) heavy. In short, don't hold back*[4].
And don't forget the most important part of this discussion; why do you enjoy these things, so much so that you would wish to see them in Dragonfable?


*[1]Caitiff: 'Well that sounds rather unrealistically violent. Have some bread, dearie.'
Hero[nauseated, looking at Caitiff]: 'I'll pass.'
Hero[through a mouthful of bread]: 'Please don' 'urt me.'

*[2]Falwynn: 'Wow, a comedic adventure sounds amazing.'
*In her eagerness, Falwynn trips and falls down the hill, bending her ankle at a strange angle.
A box flies from a cart and lands on Falwynn's other leg.
A piano falls from the sky and crashes into Falwynn, followed by Fangblade's axe.
The wreckage bursts into flame.

Doug[lighting a pipe]: 'Did I ever tell you about her tragic childhood?'

*[3]But, if the weaver only carried away one kitten from the litter, and then left without talking to anybody else, what happened to the other kittens!?

*[4]To avoid confusionó especially among newer membersó I should perhaps note that this is in no way related to any official DF or AE staff or developers. The only impact this may have on the game would be in relation to whatever uses the developers may find in this thread.

Edit: changed title and subject slightly.

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 7/27/2017 11:52:23 >
DF MQ  Post #: 1
7/21/2017 16:52:01   
Lord Run

i wish to see the continuaition of the main story the one about the Royal family moustly see more the hero fighting beside king Alteon i mean come on 11 years at DragonFable
and we didn't got to ride to war beside our king yet? how about a plot about a war between the kingdom of Greenguard and the new magisterium kingdom.
i mean the Gale quest kind ended up looking like a begining of a war,like the 100 years war "war of the roses" wich actly be a fiting name becouse well the Rose.
all so i think by seeing the forum i can tell that many want more of Falwynn,but moust of all how about finaly give us Sapchulre's story in detailed of how he became what he is?
i mean we had a character story about Xan,why not Sapachulre? its time we will see the story of the past the story of the dead queen the king and the fallen knight,it will be cool
to find a book that will create a character of him as Valen befor he became evil and see the romance they had and the birth of little Lyn.
all so it wulled be nice seeing our favorite characters as they used to be i know i said it alot but i miss there old school desings the new ones well fell a bit stolen from final fantasy i mean
Robina looks like Cloud http://sanadayukimura777.deviantart.com/art/they-maded-Robina-to-Cloud-Strife-WHY-687199172.
and Sir Leon well give him a scar and don't dress him medivial and well http://sanadayukimura777.deviantart.com/art/Leon-from-KH-at-DF-693965010?ga_submit_new=10%3A1500669353
i mean i know we did parodys of outher games but this is well a bit well passing the red line the Leon thing is well...you know i mean we all love final fantasy and Kingdom Hearts but thats a bit to close to the real one but thats my opinion, all so i wana see Artix and his paladin order in action,and can Robina finaly start to give us results i mean she spying the Rose yet so far she didn't tolled us any thing that is truly usefull for defeating them. like some thing that realy helps here for real. and what happned to the blind mage from the rosewood all so where is Soft Fist? and our friend Sam! they are to cool and fun to be forgoten after one story line. it is not engouth they have so much potential as characters that can be allyed with in a war between kingdoms i mean Soft Fist can be our general! that we will follow to battle in the name of the king together with Artix and the paladin order it will be like:

"Stand tall and believe in the light of the day
When shadows appear and ghosts walk the land!
A sacred unit, defenders of the realm
We are the ones to serve and die!!!!
Wary of nightfall, we all bound to an oath
And for the king we'll give our lives!!!!"

i mean to fight a war and have knights chargeing at the enemie with flags waveing in the wind and battle horns can be sound.you know like in thouse epic games!

and all so i know it will be a very wired request but can we have one last meeting with Celectia and have a good closer with her? i mean i never felt like i had a chance to say a properly good bye to that character.i mean Tomix we visited his grave and he died herocly Serenity we visited her soul as she passed to the outher world but Celectia it was like Xan telling us he killed her boom she die no reason not real meaning and the hero feel near to nothing Artix that was raised by her and was her adopted son dosen't even know or care much and we never had any chance to say good bye what so ever......i mean Celectia was the first thing we saw after that red dragon.she deserves a proper good bye.
and am i the only one who want to see Ash and Aria getting married?
all so one less request if i may,the Atgno quest please engouth with thous just reach to the point with thouse if its a story thing and if its side fillers then just stop makeing them if ill have to kill one more inocent widow or griveing mother or a monster with a name that sugests it is suffering it will probbly be the first quest lines that i will not complite ever!! i mean i got it bouth the magical creatures and humans suffering but must we keep on murdering them for over 3 quests to the point me in RL feel bad and uncomftrable and guilty to even play thous quest,i feel like im a butchering an old man who begs for murcy and i just killing him with my own hands and not having a dialog option to spar him as if i am forced to take the role of a serial cold blooded killer and it start to ruin my image of how i see the main hero of the game and myself as person at RL to actly finish such quests seeing the dark things that happned is one thing and was painfull engouth but doing them myself truly the second quest of the Atgno quests was very hard on me to the point i all most quited the quest and wanted to close the internet browser. don't make me kill a grveing mother a child and widow agine i beg of you.that kid we killed at the Saga Tomix died at and this Atgno quests and all the Catith thing i will never forget them they will hunt my memories my real life memories for a long time,im not a child i am 25 years old man in real life i saw the show games of thrones yet doing thouse thing in Dragon Fable was more painfull then i couled ever imgine a 2D RPG game can hurt me. mock me if you like but i actly shade tears about thouse moments even now as i write it all thouse things still are havvy on my heart and any time i think of them or write on them i get sad and emotional.

< Message edited by Lord Run -- 7/21/2017 18:28:06 >
Post #: 2
7/21/2017 17:54:16   

If anything i want to see more of our characters story we've followed the storylines of a lot of other characters, Warlic, Nythera, Vaal, Tomix, Wargoth,Artix, Valrith, Xan and Jania, to name a few. Weve barely scrathed the surface of our own heros story since the Dragon egg and chicken cow sagas. I want out hero to do something for their own benift again, the only recent quests that have done this and the tournament and sneaking into the rose HQ quests.

Post #: 3
7/21/2017 18:31:08   
Dark Lord Urmi

I would love some silent hill style mental torture/horror

id also love to see our hero completely snap in pure rage for a battle/cutscene this is more of a trope but still.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 4
7/21/2017 18:58:55   
Lord Run

Dark Lord with you its all ways lets be the antagonist but you know some thing DF is not the game for this things you know what let me suggest a game that you will probbly love.
Overlord and Overlord 2 not sure if they created Overlord 3 or maybe havly dark/evily moded Skyrim and probbly Star Wars knights of the old republic all of them this are the games for you i never chosen the side of evil heck even in over lord one the humans loved me and called me hero and cheered when saw me alk in the street.
wait antigo.....antagonist,as i thought the antigo quests they are for makeing us play the role of the antagonist!!!
Post #: 5
7/21/2017 19:12:44   
Dark Lord Urmi

I like what i like...so what?

no run it's not, snapping is a heroic trope and it happens a lot (the hulk is this trope 100% of the time) as just about every hero in media has done it, i also didn't say anything involving murder, control, domination, or destruction.
i've literally not figuratively literally never said anything about our hero becoming evil just because i like dark things does not mean they are evil by default.

and having a silent hill style mental torture style horror does nothing to anybody else but the hero..

any game you can think of I have played it the overlord series included.

I also don't appreciate you trying to run me off when i've have been here since the beginning i'm WELL AWARE how this game works.

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 7/21/2017 19:16:24 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 6
7/21/2017 19:25:31   

@lord run

you're looking at the wrong language when it come to the atgasedd quests. the words have nothing to do with the term "antagonist". especially since they're WELSH, and each mean a different emotion.

atgasedd= revulsion/hatred(specifically the hatred that magical creatures feel towards humans, especially the rose).

atgno=remorse(specifically the remorse of the people who lost loved ones in akriloth's attack).

bradychwydd=betrayal(specifically the betrayal felt by those close to us, and even the betrayal WE feel from "grams").

also, @dark lord urmi didn't suggest us being an antagonist, so i'm not quite sure where you're coming up with that.

@dark lord urmi

i kind of agree. it'd be neat to see a more horror story-like quest. at least, a more SERIOUS horror story-like quest.
DF  Post #: 7
7/21/2017 19:27:14   
Dark Lord Urmi

^ exactly i was thinking something like the cryptic class quest and atgasedd but more intense on a MUCH larger scale.
Maybe even something like this

the last time we got Horror horror was that aliens like quest with the mech at the end.

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 7/21/2017 19:32:00 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 8
7/21/2017 19:36:24   

@dark lord urmi

i mean, didn't caitiff try that with the shadow serenity? which.... kind of backfired. psychological torture doesn't really seem to do much to the hero other than enrage them and cause them to hunt down and defeat whoever attempted it.

when i say horror, i think utilizing actual FEAR would be a bit better.
DF  Post #: 9
7/21/2017 19:37:44   
Lord Run

lol i gess thats what it means yep only i can make such asemption becouse of understanding spelling mistake i did XD.

< Message edited by Lord Run -- 7/21/2017 19:41:07 >
Post #: 10
7/21/2017 19:40:55   
Dark Lord Urmi

the hero KNEW caitiff was trying something it's hard for something to work when you see it coming.

Silent hill style mental horror is the best case scenario as it takes parts of your mind and warps them into twisted abominations even playing all of who you are against you, the hero would never be afraid of monsters it's reliving failures that would get them hard combine the emotional pain with watching it corrode before your eyes build up and atmosphere that's true terror not jumpscares i mean the hero beat death in combat haha

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 7/21/2017 19:41:47 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 11
7/21/2017 19:41:15   

In response i will state this, i've said it once, or was it twice? Does it matter? No, it does not, simply i am a reader, never a writer, never a creator, my penmanship is terrible and my creations tend to have a mind of their own, they do not listen, nor do i intend to do anything further than instigate. I have once shown you the most used part of my imagination, the part that evokes imagery from what is not written, but what can be assumed, when an author goes out of their way to supplement this part further, the story becomes much more real for me.

I have read enough stories to give me the ability to pick up a book and determine its end, not always guaranteed, but all stories follow a certain logic, certain guidelines and rules. The more you know about the author the more you know what characters can do and what they wont, the more you know the story, the more you understand the author, a viscous cycle that is interesting to decipher. Once the author does something unexpected, than it becomes quite...fun.

Yet Dragonfable, a game which i once greatly enjoyed due to its nonsensical humor, is one that i currently enjoy for its story and continuing Lore, as well as hate due to one single character. Jaania. What i stated above is true, and if we were to take a look of some of her Authors we can determine what she i capable of, as well as her anticlimactic destiny. (She is far to protected, i am aware the Geo often defended her valiantly, and it is because of this that her logical conclusion seems so real i can visualize it.)

Enough of that, you asked a question, i intend to answer it.
I desire Knowledge.
That is all.

I've read Hugo, I've read Dumas and yes i've read Dahl (an enjoyable chapter of my life) yet the thing that always hooks me, the single instance that makes me gluttonous for more is always the same. Knowledge, the amount of information within the confines of the bound stack of papers can contain many hidden treasures, and in some cases it may appear hefty but it chronicles nothing more than a simple emotion. A handful of pages can contain a rich lore about Cacao loving peoples, machines that use algorithms to create fantastical stories, the plight of those who have as well as those who do not, and of course an adventure beyond the realms of thought and imagination (yet it is there written in those pages).

Thats all i want, Lore, no greater Lore, the confines of the story have slowly vanished and the main character has been thrust into a greater world, with more to learn and more to do. Many things are untouched, many things will bind together, the more you know, the more you understand, i don't want a biology lesson, but i do want to understand.

My favorite story would be The Count of Monte Cristo, the nested stories, the various changes of identities...simply everything about it made me devour the book as a child. It probably wasnt the best book to read at that age, but it did introduce me to a world of books i was unaware of.
I desire more adventure, i desire to see the unknown and dive deep into the abyss of the things we have yet to explore, this is a fantasy game after all, adventure is a requirement even if in small portions, this discovery will ultimately lead to more knowledge.

With animators and writers who create a story whose most intimate detail is well created, i have no doubts that they will achieve this, Tomix an obsessive writer and animator who creates great stories will one day be able to animate smell and taste, of this i have no doubt.

@ Lord Run...
portions of what you've said are possible but others... it's possible, but... it would really be up to the writers at a point like this, i'm not saying it couldnt work, i'm simply saying it would need a good story is all. We've had some good wars, one of the best was the Popsprocket war, Sneevils riding Togs into battle, robots from the future...it really went above and beyond, i am satisfied with that. As for Alteon, he is not my king anymore, he cowers in hiding like the Slugwraths, his reign while good at the start, may find a nasty end ...in the end.

@ Dark Lord Urmi
I do agree, a bit, just a bit.
We've had it in scenes where it immediately fades into black.
Sepulchre and Konnan, perhaps even Serenity suffered, i'm sure a part of her did.... old wounds, often the most difficult to heal.
However the hero will not snap until he has been pushed further...the Doom Amulet should have been proof of that, he is very close to breaking, and when they do... it shall be glorious. A cold grin seems to come over me, we know all to well what they are a capable of, when you break you dont hold back, you have no filter, let's see what the Hero truly thinks, let's see whats inside. Do they bleed red?

Darker does not mean edgier, although sometimes synonymous, i have a feeling that this darker path will in effect make the hero a tad more edgier. Nothing wrong with that.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 12
7/21/2017 19:53:25   
Dark Lord Urmi

I'm having a hard time seeing Alteon as a proper king as well monstervet, he seems like he is turning into a santa claus like jolly man more then a kind but fierce warrior king.

Below: nobody is saying the hero would become Sepulchure, the hero has been pushed around, manipulated, betrayed, hurt, and blamed for things they could never be able to stop or things they have never done. This would be all of that coming to a head and exploding onto the poor fool who drew this out. It's not permanent and snapping is indeed very human.

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 7/21/2017 20:00:23 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 13
7/21/2017 19:55:28   
Lord Run

you know some thing monstervet for the first time in my life i actly seeing what you say as a possable thing you know maybe,there is place for a moment of not evil hero
but a broken one a desspret one that will do a desspert move and then will seek for redemption,never liked the idia of the hero our hero becomes evil,but.....in a second thought,maybe
him loseing and brakeing is actly what makes him human,,we humans we do some times stamble brakes fails and do mistakes,and maybe there is a place for that.
even in DF,but not evil not like Sapachulre i don't want the hero to end up as the next Sapachulre.
but i see what you mean about the king,he is not what he used to be when he was younger free and had his strong heart with him.
but i still belive in him,and hope he will return to himself.

< Message edited by Lord Run -- 7/21/2017 20:03:41 >
Post #: 14
7/21/2017 20:15:02   

Of course a hero needs something to push them from hero to leader. He is a sideline hero, support for the people, the main character but never the leader, this may be the book to push him him into that spotlight... but he needs a reason, he needs a push, they need to be broken.

As for Fear? Torture?

Villainy 101 My dear Lord Urmi, simply take everything the hero has and turn it against them. Fear is a weapon, use it well, but you can not have the hero turn into his fear for then they can and will use it against you, simply allow them to live in fear.
Those he loves, his allies...turn them against the Hero.
His goals, his dreams, make them impossible or better yet make them obsolete.
His beliefs, his code by which they live by..destroy it.
Leave Hope until the very last, Until. The. Very. Last
Nothing worse than having a sliver of hope and having it yanked from you at the very last moment, they shall sink into true despair, grasping at straws anything that will give them valor to go on, something anything an ideal, an idea, someone upon which they can build their strength.
Give them something, give them the people. Have them do what the Rose does, have them rub the Heroes "failures" in their own face, show the hero that all confidence placed upon them is lost. Then and only then shall the hero know true despair, will they truly break, will they become what the Rose already thinks they are.... no hero. A has been, a chump. A Zero.

What was, was, what can be..that can be twisted into something grandiose, defeating a hero is not difficult.
Preventing them from ever rising again, is another matter entirely.
Emotionally and physically.

I do not desire this however, pushing a hero past his or her limits can twist them, twist them into something that can not be destroyed. Which is why i warn you once again, do not let them become their fear, do not allow a hero to be consumed in fear, simply allow them to dwell in it. If they should ever escape, they shall seek vengeance, and that is a story i've read countless times....
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 15
7/21/2017 20:26:20   
Dark Lord Urmi

^ A hero only gains true understanding of what they fear when they nearly become it, how else would their resolve becone truly solid if they were never at the brink of being lost but stopped before the leap.

It's like a knight with polished and unscathed armor vs a knight with scarred and damaged armor, who do you trust to protect you more? one who clearly never tasted real battle and has little understanding on how one would be like or one who survived each battle placed before them, we are talking human knights not godly "can't be touched by any attack" knights.

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 7/21/2017 20:33:01 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 16
7/21/2017 21:02:20   

A hero who has witnessed Death (and fouught it) and lived to talk about it, one who has fought enemies so legendary they have destroyed worlds and devoured the sun, a Hero who fought an enemy controlling their closest companion our dragon in turn corrupted by evil incarnate.
This is who we are speaking about, i do not wish to see them mad. Insane or angry (take your pick)

Once you become consumed by fear, once your completely empty inside and consumed by this feeling, once you become fear itself? Nothing is left but fear. A hero, no an individual consumed by fear will walk in silence, and as you know "silence like a cancer grows" it will want to spread itself, it will lash out, it will take no prisoners, if you let it. Yes, if you let it escape it shall attack and consume everything it can. Just look at Jaania, her world taken from her she learned true despair, perhaps not true fear she was consumed by despair, once she escaped she began spreading her ideals...spreading despair.

As for the example of the knight, true, in a real world setting.
Look upon Artix, can you find a fault upon his armor?
Yet once his armor was scorched, yet his armor was once black! Back when he was corrupted by Drakonnan!
What did he feel? Anger, hate, confusion, despair? He did not feel fear going into the den of the Great Fire Dragon, but he lived in a nightmare when controlled by Drakonnan.

Artix: He has used the power of the Fire Orb to it's fulllest, using it to... to corrupt minds and hearts of our fellow heros.
<Character>: He... he can do that?
Artix: It... it was terrible, I thought it was a nightmare.

I still trust Artix, but Shadowfire is another thing entirely.
Fear and despair are two very different things.


A hero only gains true understanding of what they fear when they nearly become it, how else would their resolve becone truly solid if they were never at the brink of being lost but stopped before the leap.

If he becomes fear, he becomes a villain. We've seen it before, and we shall see it again.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 17
7/21/2017 21:21:48   
Dark Lord Urmi

^ haha you are lost in your own poetic musings it seems XD

not using the armor example Artix almost fell to evil forever and now understands what it's like from the other side I would trust his knowledge and opinions more because of this experience and not because of the "LIGHT AND JUSTICE" stuff.

the main thing you are missing is i'm specifically saying the hero WON'T be consumed only come close, coming close is not the same as fully falling.

is stopping safely right before hitting the ground the same as splatting on the concrete?

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 7/21/2017 21:23:02 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 18
7/22/2017 0:31:31   

Something really heartwarming. Preferrably with Falwynn. With art by Shiny_Underpants.
Post #: 19
7/22/2017 0:45:24   
Silver Sky Magician

*cough* harem romance? *cough* The Vordred saga finale in AQW did that really well.

A mystery dungeon like a cross between the Valtrith castle and AQW's Sleuthhound Inn would be really cool.
Epic  Post #: 20
7/22/2017 6:40:56   

To add to the original post, if there were a totally new questline being created, what genres, styles, characterisation types and type of ending should it possess and why?

Obviously we have enough questlines running as it is, and I'm pretty satisfied with the quality of content. Still, if there were new questchain, how should it address the techniques outlined in the opening post?

When the Dragonfable visual novel is planned, I'll be the first to volunteer. And you'll be the first to hear about it ;)


~original: @Dark Lord Urmi
is stopping safely right before hitting the ground the same as splatting on the concrete?

What if the concrete moves especially to hit you in the face?
Some sort of sacrificial narrative seems to fit the criteria you guys have specified so far...


~original: @monstervet
No, it does not, simply i am a reader, never a writer, never a creator, my penmanship is terrible and my creations tend to have a mind of their own, they do not listen, nor do i intend to do anything further than instigate. I have once shown you the most used part of my imagination, the part that evokes imagery from what is not written, but what can be assumed, when an author goes out of their way to supplement this part further, the story becomes much more real for me.

That just means you have high standards. I'm sure with a fair bit of practice, and perhaps a skilled teacher or editor your poetic musings could create a nicely flowing narrative.
Reading a good story can always be discouraging, but the best writers seem to be more set on being readers than writers; in short, they love their craft.
And a little ju ne sais quoi tells me your poetry would be well worth reading.
DF MQ  Post #: 21
7/22/2017 10:48:05   
Lord Run

Dark Lord Urmi i know our hero need some pain and him brakeing up some times makes him human.
but monstervet is right about his views ya the hero can suffer i starting to accept it that the hero have little moments of pain and emotional brakes makes him human but makeing him evil like that is out of the question! for me him turning to a force of evil for real it will be the point of no return,it will ruin it for me.
seeing the hero doing evil is a bit to much.

< Message edited by Lord Run -- 7/22/2017 10:53:17 >
Post #: 22
7/22/2017 10:58:29   

@lord run

again, where are you seeing the "hero doing evil" in any of what dark lord urmi is saying? he's suggesting a horror story, not "the hero becomes evil" and those are NOT the same thing......
DF  Post #: 23
7/22/2017 11:02:47   
Lord Run

of course he means it the very fect that they give Artix exmple when he fallen to the dark after Konan controled him prooves that that is what they mean.
Post #: 24
7/22/2017 11:27:19   

@lord run

did you miss this sentence that dark lord urmi said in the exact same post?


the main thing you are missing is i'm specifically saying the hero WON'T be consumed only come close, coming close is not the same as fully falling.

besides, with this, he wasn't talking about evil, he was talking about FEAR. and again, he was not talking about a story of the hero being evil, he was talking about a HORROR story, which are NOT the same thing. specifically, he wants a silent hill-type scenario. the main characters from silent hill aren't evil. they're trapped in a weird world made purely out of their deepest regrets/fears.

then there's the fact that it wasn't dark lord urmi who originally gave the artix being controlled by konnan. monstervet did, because he, too misunderstood dark lord urmi's point.
DF  Post #: 25
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