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RE: =DF= July 28th Design Notes: The Inn at the Edge of Time Update!

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7/29/2017 10:19:16   
dark garuda

I was checking the Triple Trouble fight out to see what it's like, I'd brought along Arnice Magica for some much-needed extra firepower and it seems the glitch with it that I'd assumed had been fixed (due to not having seen it in some time, although I've hardly taken the weapon out of storage in over a year due to even the un-glitched effect usually being pretty overkill), but I was wrong, it's alive and well.

Tellingly I still barely cleared the fight even with Naturecast glitch applying on every hit after the first triggered instance of it rather than each hit having its own chance to trigger (i.e: roughly triples the number of Naturecast procs on Ancient Exosuit's spells from ~2 to ~6, which then multiplies with itself due to crit%). I think to go back and clear it legitimately and without Dragonslayer, I'd need Aegis (3) as well as Mritha to protect her on the turns that Shield Wall isn't active. Mritha has 50 natural block so she's fine for those vulnerable turns then (even if Aegis may not be). Even though you can have many turns in a row of borderline invulnerability there's always a vulnerable or at least a more vulnerable turn occasionally. Their damage output is so high, when it's not completely foolproof to block that you can lose just by the difference in DPT. However, once Trigoras is down the fight's mostly over unless Gelunguis gets mad luck with RNG. I figure I could do it again with maxed pots, a little more M/P/M from gears and Aegis.

Edit: forgot to say but I have no idea how to replicate the glitch so that it can be fixed more easily - sorry. It's very capricious. Sometimes when you show the weapon it decides to glitch out, and you only find out about it when you've already gone into battle and see there's something seeming rather dodgy about your number of Naturecast procs.

< Message edited by dark garuda -- 7/29/2017 10:21:39 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 76
7/29/2017 10:23:44   

Dragonoid was quite easy with Necro as a non-DA player. I have just read the forums before the fight and learnt that I should kill the mechs at the same turn. Then I just defeated him in the first try. Will try the Triple Trouble soon but it scares me tbh :D
Post #: 77
7/29/2017 10:34:19   
dark garuda

Damn, what a beast. Granted I didn't find the Dragonoid that difficult with my usual strats (Cryptic) or anything (edit - looking back over I feel like I'm missing something here, Cryptic and Exosuit, no Arnice Magica on the latter, neither had a problem. Did he get nerfed?), but I'm always impressed that non-DAs find methods to do it! It's like being able to kill a siberian bear with a bread knife.

< Message edited by dark garuda -- 7/29/2017 10:44:29 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 78
7/29/2017 11:13:24   

@^: I don't think so. I've been fighting Dragonoid over and over for the past few hours and I don't think he's gotten any weaker. From what I could tell, Cryptic's just a good match for him. I'd guess the same of Exosuit.
As it turns out, I was wrong. It actually is possible to beat Triple Trouble with Archivist despite their uh... seeming incompatibility. Only, it took both potions (maxed out), half of a true hero's diet, and was sloggy enough that Celestia's Sorrow had half cooled-down by the time they all died. Which... actually probably says more about CS's cooldown than the boss but, eh. Sorry for doubting you, Archivist. Knowledge is indeed power.
@V: Can we trade? I keep getting staffs...

< Message edited by MarchingToApril -- 7/29/2017 12:07:50 >
Post #: 79
7/29/2017 11:45:22   
The Jop

Well, I beat it and got a dagger...but my character's a mage. Great.

If only...

< Message edited by The Jop -- 7/29/2017 12:17:23 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 80
7/29/2017 12:07:01   

Personally, there was no way I was gonna get through Triple Challenge without using the San Robin Approved Dragonslayer Poison Cheese rotation, and even that was a pain. Dragonoid took a little longer but Ascended Chickencow Armor got it done better than any other class I tried. Had to do it several times just to get the Staff version. A nice weapon for Non-DA's, and something I'll be keeping, but not using for anything more than cosmetics.

Overall, this is the toughest release to date, and I'm quite happy with it. Good Luck to BD if he wants to take on the Hard Mode variants.


The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward
DF  Post #: 81
7/29/2017 12:16:35   

It upsets me a little to see everyone ignoring the new rumors from the vendor. :(
DF AQW  Post #: 82
7/29/2017 12:25:37   


they aren't really ignoring them. the rumors just aren't being posted in this specific thread.
DF  Post #: 83
7/29/2017 12:54:00   

Uhh... Is it just me or does the Dragonslayer armor only have one leg?
Post #: 84
7/29/2017 13:11:45   

Thanks to people here saying when exactly the Dragonoid respawns its minions, I was able to beat Dragonoid consistently with Rage Dragonlord. Best to stun him when he gets close to 5500 health, while making sure scale, Dragon Soul, and Dragon Heart were ready. Scale will boost the damage of soul and heart, enough to 1 turn kill each minion, while blocking their powerful fire attacks that would otherwise deal annoying DoT. Didn't get the sword I wanted after 6 tries though, lol.
DF AQW  Post #: 85
7/29/2017 13:22:59   
dark garuda

@April - I agree but that's part of the reason I was so surprised. Cryptic's a control-based class really, and when it comes to bosses it has a great success rate overall - but when it fails, it fails hard. It either does what it does best and slices its foe to ribbons with it barely being able to draw blood in return, or it dies in like four turns (such as versus Dr. When... well, you can bring Aegis but that's kinda cheating considering you're taking Book 3 back to Book 1!). Like the other dragons, Dragonoid doesn't have high Bonus or a Bonus steroid and unlike Oratath his defensive kit isn't amazing (since Cryptic's own Bonus steroid is appalling), so it was a bit of a foregone conclusion. With no disrespect to my fellow Cryptic bois, yeah there's just not much that can go wrong with Cryptic unless you get insanely unlucky on the Dragonspawn respawn time which you can at least control to a degree. I just found it really stunning that a lot of folks seemed to be putting the Dragonoid on the same level as Triple Trouble, when honestly I found the Dragonoid to be about as tough as just Oratath. Triple Trouble you really do have to cheese the fight for the W. Even with Dragonslayer who's cheap in himself, we're talking guests; we're talking maxed pots (and maybe even Rotten Hardtack and Seaweed), we're talking gimmicky gears; we're talking shown weapons - the works!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 86
7/29/2017 14:00:03   

^So you know Aegis was in book 1.
Post #: 87
7/29/2017 14:17:59   


yes, but he's talking specifically about book 3 aegis, whose skillset is far better than book 1 aegis.
DF  Post #: 88
7/29/2017 14:45:01   
dark garuda

To be fair, Book 1 Aegis has two pretty good nuke skills for a guest, but you usually don't bring comrades for their damage - it's a minor miracle if they deal enough to make up for the HP boost the boss gets, so they're there to help you survive. Aegis I's Shield is a joke whereas III's is amazing even if it is second to Mritha's Shield Wall. It also modifies Dodge/Parry/Block instead of M/P/M Defence which generally isn't as useful but it's great if you have a class which already works with Dodge/Parry/Block since you sail over the 200 flashpoint easily. That said it's kinda moot because I'm a dumbo and forgot you can't use Aegis except for certain quests without using Soulweaver/Master/Baltael.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 89
7/29/2017 15:52:04   
Baron Dante


I just found it really stunning that a lot of folks seemed to be putting the Dragonoid on the same level as Triple Trouble, when honestly I found the Dragonoid to be about as tough as just Oratath. Triple Trouble you really do have to cheese the fight for the W. Even with Dragonslayer who's cheap in himself, we're talking guests; we're talking maxed pots (and maybe even Rotten Hardtack and Seaweed), we're talking gimmicky gears; we're talking shown weapons - the works!

To be fair, that was mostly before the exact mechanics of Dragonoid were known. If you don't know what you're doing the thing will walk all over you pretty easily.
I'm somewhat doubtful about DS needing anything extra to deal with the Triple though (Does Stan count as standard DragonSlayer equipment yet? If not, it might want that).
Exo can use DragonKnight gear to shred these things to pieces, and that's probably slower than than DSing. I'd even say it's consistent.
Maybe DS just has too bad defenses?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 90
7/29/2017 17:11:39   

Well aside from the shield,book 1 Aegis seemed better for some reason.
Post #: 91
7/29/2017 18:02:39   

My all time favorite is still the Ultra Merged Akriloth.
The harder and cuddly versions are blatantly impossible though.
Maybe with 3 dragon knight sets.

You get decent loot as well.
DF MQ  Post #: 92
7/29/2017 18:33:08   
dark garuda

@Dante - Nah, I was kind of side-stepping Dragonslayer. Frankly, I just don't want to train the class, especially since it's maybe a bit overkill. For offence with Exosuit I feel like Dragonknight would be a worse multiplier than unglitched Arnice, although if you're relying on guests for most of your defence what class you bring doesn't matter at for the most part as long as it can put out a lot of damage (and ideally sustain itself some).

I didn't read on Dragonoid's mechanics before engaging so I was going in blind, in fact what people have been saying about his mechanics isn't true in 1 sense. Specifically with the Dragonspawn at the start of the fight (not respawn):

The far one gives him a shield, the close one gives him a 30% damage boost.

If you kill the far one and the close one remains alive, the Dragonoid regenerates health per turn. If you kill the close one and the far one remains alive, the Dragonoid gains a large additional damage boost - that's the only real threat from not killing them both at once. I didn't know to kill them at once but you really don't have to, since if he regenerates some health it's basically irrelevant given that it's the start of the fight and he's likely at full anyways. You just need to kill the far one first and then the closer, which it should've been anyone's instinct to do anyways because nullifying a shield is much more important than nullifying a 30% damage boost (especially since it hangs around for quite a few turns after being buffed on any one turn).

I don't know, the Dragonoid's mechanics were pretty simple to pick up on; it was an enhanced Doom Amulet fight, the only curveball being the Dragonspawn respawn but most good classes have an almost-perfect defensive rotation so it's more unlucky to be caught off guard by it than it is lucky not to be.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 93
7/29/2017 18:54:09   

ArchKnightshade of AQW GD/Q&A/Guides

@dark garuda:


For offence with Exosuit I feel like Dragonknight would be a worse multiplier than unglitched Arnice

Are you sure? Dragonknight weaponry replaces every hit with 140% damage. Unglitched Arnice replaces 15% of your hits with 110% damage. Even a glitched Arnice shouldn't be able to compare to Dragonknight, unless it was changed from the wiki entry.
DF AQW  Post #: 94
7/29/2017 19:08:57   
Baron Dante

@dm: Well... impossible might be a bit much. The dumbest cheese strat can actually beat even the highest-tier Merged Akriloth, as well as Partiest Merged Akriloth.

@dark garuda: I'm not sure how Arnice would be better than the DragonKnight set against Dragons though. Those set every hit to 175%, combined with Exo being able to hit a ridiculous number of times per turn (Only second to the original Chickencow armor, but that thing gets nothing else, no defence or anything). Of course, defence becomes less important if you bring yourself a few meatshields, but personally, I like to use kind of a tiered level of strategies. You start with nothing but yourself and standard gameplay, and then you add more and more stuff there until you can beat whatever is in your way. That includes guests, of course. The end of that is, naturally, original DoomKnight.
So when it comes to me dealing with Hard Triple Trouble eventually, my plan is to start off without guests. The end tier will be DS, since there's no way it can't do it, one way or another.

As far as going to Dragonoid blind, that sort of relies on you not killing the close one first. If you do that, you end up in a bad spot. And of course, you don't necessarily know at that point that you're supposed to remove the other one before getting nuked several times. And of course, the respawn has taken people by surprise since the Dragonspawn now hit you with unreasonable DoTs.
You'll probably pick it up in a few runs though, and then it'll hopefully be doable.

That aside, I like how someone finally gave a good explanation to why I saw some awful healing in this fight early on. I never ended up encountering it again because I just take out the closer Spawn first, and the second immediately after. That definitely would make the fight easier, knowing you can remove one of the Spawns immediately. And, when they respawn, if you have the patience (And a class that can survive), you could do that again. I'm not sure if I agree with removing the shield first though. You want both of these things out anyways, so removing the one that makes the boss hit harder feels like the more important factor. Sure, you may lose a few turns waiting for the shield to wear off after they're dead, but you can use that to set up defences and heal if needed.

In unrelated news, I have now confirmed I can do Dragonoid on Hard Mode, so I'll hopefully be able to do a video on that tomorrow.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 95
7/29/2017 19:42:21   

What strategies are you all using on the dragonoid? I beat it 3 times with the PDL, but my luck has run out it seems. I haven't beat it since, but I've tried plenty. Any particular strategies you guys are using?
DF  Post #: 96
7/29/2017 19:46:13   
dark garuda

I didn't know Dragonknight worked that way, that's fantastic - I figured it was a damage multiplier rather than a hit-damage changer seeing as the page mentioned Doom Knight. I mean, I guess I feel significantly less scummy for having inadvertently cheated considering even glitched Arnice is indeed a very poor man's Dragonknight. It must be an absolute cakewalk with Dragonknight then, I'm kinda grinning smacking my lips just to think about say ECC's Zeuster doing what, 3500% damage straight there.

My personal reasoning behind always going after defensive mechanisms first rather than stopping his offence (which turned out to be the right idea in this fight because of the damage boost he gets when Dragonspawn close is destroyed, but usually it's not so clear-cut) is that any character should always be running off at least a 70% level of damage mitigation in tough fights - usually higher - however, in most defensive rotations there's at least one turn where your defence is either dropped or significantly weaker (i.e: when you have nothing to stop them hitting you except Blind on Cryptic temporarily). The lion's share of the damage you take through the whole fight happens on those few turns where your guard is weakened by cooldown constraints. This means a damage steroid for the boss is relatively unimpactful most of the time because you nullify so much of their damage, and since the damage boost hangs around a few turns even after you kill what's providing it it might not stop you from taking the boosted damage on the chin on your weak turn(s).

Because the benefits are quite low, it's better to focus on damaging the boss wherever possible because that reduces the number of turns the fight takes in total, which reduces the number of rotations required which then sees you suffer from less weak turns... you see the idea (it also reduces the odds that something goes horribly wrong with the RNG and blows you out the door). I have to admit it still does seem natural to go for the shielder first, because by the time you kill the damage booster (if you need to - in the Doom Amulet case it was best to just kill the healer and ignore the booster) his shield will be down anyways (granted I immediately started wailing on Dragonoid for 2 or 3 turns before I realised he was regenerating a bunch so yeah, you're not wrong there) as well as the other 'you don't need to tank as much if they're already dead' stuff. At least in part this is definitely something I picked up from playing mostly Cryptic, with no reliable sustain abilities you always need to make sure they're paying heavily for every hit they do manage and that means shortening fights whenever it's safe to go for it.

I do agree that DF's basically a scale of cheese and you can make almost any fight as easy or difficult as you like (Edit: especially for you since you own Dragonfable Friends, that trinket is like carpet taping an assault rifle onto your sword). I don't tend to immediately reach for the tap-out Arnice Magica + Pyromancer or whatever, but I've also personally never been that big on finding out exactly how badly-equipped I can turn up and still win the day. I'm kind of in the middle on it, in which case I'm probably lucky that Cryptic is such a fun class that's additionally good to go for 98% of content, but doesn't usually feel like I'm just dumpstering everything either.

< Message edited by dark garuda -- 7/29/2017 20:12:29 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 97
7/29/2017 20:03:58   
Baron Dante

I like the term "scale of cheese".
Sounds very... San Robiny.
Obviously I don't go for the whole "how much can I hinder myself and still win" thing (Except sometimes. Angler Management comes to mind). It's just that I don't usually go with monstrous levels of cheese to any release, I usually just start with Paladin and my standard equipment, and go from there. (Paladin is like, 7 slices of cheese to boot though)

@Luckyjazzt: The only time I actually ended up beating the Dragonoid on Normal was with TimeKiller. But that was already doing testing for Hard Mode, with heavily optimized gear for that specific purpose. So for most people, that's not even an option, or if it is, it'd probably involve spending a bunch of DCs and/or farming for a few hours. When you reach that level, there probably aren't many classes that can't do it, one way or another.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 98
7/29/2017 20:13:07   

Loving the release so far, even if the rewards are nothing to write home about stat/ damage wise (the art is great!) I feel like this is the first real challenge fights DF has had in a while. You can't just go in and mindlessly swing away at the boss and hope to win: There's an important element of strategy that I hope we'll see in more fights in future (even if just features in these Inn challenges).

Personally I feel like using guests with powerful shielding effects quite cheap: Even if the boss does gain an enormous amount of health it's negated by a flawless defense rotation that doesn't feature in even the best of classes. I've managed to beat Triple Trouble Hard mode solo (granted this was with DS, I don't believe it to be impossible with other classes but given their vast, vast health pools that would be more of an exercise in patience than strategy I feel) and I'm planning on tackling HM Dragonoid solo soon, I think that will really prove to be a challenge.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 99
7/29/2017 22:44:58   

I've gotten good results killing the Dragonoid using DeathKnight. Here's my strategy (roughly -- you may also need to modify it due to build differences because I run a fairly offense-oriented build with 105 WIS):
1) Start battle by stunning Dragonoid, so that the shield can't interfere with the stunning
2) Unholy Shadow (multi)
3) Attack MechSpawn __ (pick one) with Summon Minion
4) Garb of Undeath (shield) -- usually, just by virtue of the Dragonoid's algorithms, this'll cover the stun and even the "follow-up"
5) Attack the other MechSpawn, with a strong move like Obliterate if needed
6) Unholy Shadow should be enough to kill both of them at this point. It'll probably miss the Dragonoid but that's fine. You can also use Reap beforehand to increase the damage you'll deal to both.
7) Necrotic Presence Shift to Heal over Time.
8) Wear down the Dragonoid. I use Reap when it's up, followed by Inspire Weakness then Dreadblade. That works well followed by Summon Minion, and Empowered Armor Strike (which works really well when you have any DK equips on -- I have the belt only and it still does good damage). The cooldown of the stun-breath combo seems to be around 5-6 turns, maybe longer. Around that time, use Garb of Undeath and it should cover the stun-breath combo. At level 80+, your immobility resistance will give you a small chance to resist the stun, but don't count on it. If your shield doesn't cover the stun-breath and you aren't stunned, you can use Break Will, which has a chance of stunning the Dragonoid. It's no huge deal if you do get hit; the regeneration from the Necrotic Presence is pretty strong.
9) When you're at close to half of the Dragonoid's health, stun it. Attack with Summon Minion and Empowered Armor Strike. You can use more powerful skills, but I prefer to use them on the respawns.
10) The Dragonoid will respawn its allies. Use Garb of Undeath, followed by Unholy Shadow.
11) Reap, then Unholy Shadow once it's off cooldown, whittling the MechSpawn health so that they can both be killed in one multi (hopefully, missing does happen even at higher bonus than the sum of their evasion mechanics).
12) Kill the Dragonoid, using the tactic in step 8.

AQ DF  Post #: 100
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