Home  | Login  | Register  | Help  | Play 

Secundus, Forbidden Magic, and Time Travel *SPOILERS*

 
Logged in as: Guest
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [DragonFable] >> DragonFable General Discussion >> Secundus, Forbidden Magic, and Time Travel *SPOILERS*
Forum Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
8/11/2017 16:22:57   
Steel_King
Member

Look, there's no real way to come at this, and I predict the whole conversation is just going to get sucked down in a whirlpool of time paradox, but I have to try. Alright, here goes nothing:
DF made one of the tidiest time travel loops I have ever heard about when they laid out the First Weaver Saga, and created some fantastic quests and characters along the way. Despite everything though, there is one aspect of the loop that doesn't seem to add up. Secundus is a combination of Vaal and Roirr, and presumably has the knowledge of both. However, the majority of early soulweaving that formed the basis of all weavecraft was taught to Roirr BY Secundus, and Vaal's knowledge is based off of those early teachings. Roirr teaches the ritual that creates Secundus (Tanislav's Last Will), but forbidden magic was, for all intents and purposes, largely created/discovered by Secundus himself! Now, that is a little confusing, so let me clarify: According to canon, knowledge of soulweaving and forbidden magics appears to have been spontaneously generated in the time loop, with no progenitor. I have a few ways to try and explain this, but they are not without flaws, so I wanted to know what the community thinks about it.

ALSO,

There are two other points I wanted to raise.
One: Secundus, without apparent preparation, manipulates time. Is this unique to him? Was it a one-off thing because of the time loop? Could other Elemental Spirits do it as well?
Two: The Plane of Elemental Spirits. Has it always existed? Did the creation of Elemental Spirits create it, or does it predate that? If so, before it was the Plane of Elemental Spirits, what was it the Plane of?

Please be polite, and don't worry if you don't understand time travel - everybody just fakes it, some better than others.

_____________________________

The Harvest approaches

I am the Reaper

Sing a song of Crows...
Post #: 1
8/11/2017 16:39:16   
Greyor_42
Member

@steel_king

i believe i can help explain your question about how these arts came into existence.


see, what tomix used in this story is what's called a "stable loop", otherwise known as a bootstrap paradox. this can be boiled down into one thing in essence: person A goes back in time, and in doing so, causes events that lead person A to go back in time. a great example of this was described in the intro of a dr. who episode: say there's a time traveller who is a huge fan of beethoven, and has memorized all of beethoven's works. he decides to go back in time to meet this great inspiration around the time he composes his first musical piece, but finds that, upon arrival, there is no such person. beethoven's parents exist, and are married, but there is no beethoven. worried that this means that all of the man's great music will fade because of this, the time traveller himself writes down and plays all the symphonies, thus, in essence becoming beethoven himself, and so becomes his own past(future?) self's inspiration.



as for secundus' ability to manipulat time, it probably stems from roirr's unique ability to teleport through time and space(as he stated, he once accidentally ended up a few minutes in the future, and when he escaped the deep void, he "landed" some time near the end of book 3, after the hero had explored azeveyr, which still hasn't happened yet), which allows secundus to exist sort of outside of time.
i also believe that the plane of elemental spirits came into existence shortly after the second use of tanislav's last will(when tanislav himself used it on his entire village to save roirr). most likely, the resulting elemental spirits(secundus included), pooled their power together to create a home. or something.
DF  Post #: 2
8/11/2017 19:55:52   
Steel_King
Member

But does that mean the knowledge/music/whatever actually has no author/progenitor? It just...exists independently? Also, Roirr's ability to shift space-time is interesting, but I thought that he performed it by entering and exiting the POES. If that is the case, does the POES have time flow at a fixed rate? Could other beings do it, or is it just a Secundus/Roirr operation.
Post #: 3
8/11/2017 20:24:59   
Greyor_42
Member

@steel_king

quote:

But does that mean the knowledge/music/whatever actually has no author/progenitor? It just...exists independently?


the knowledge itself is basically its own origin. weird i know, but it's one of the major points of a bootstrap paradox: thing happen because they already did, and cause themselves to happen. there was probably a point in time where it had a true origin, but the bootstrap paradox has since overwritten it due to repeating for a basically infinite amount of times.

quote:

but I thought that he performed it by entering and exiting the POES. If that is the case, does the POES have time flow at a fixed rate? Could other beings do it, or is it just a Secundus/Roirr operation.


actually, that's probably WHY the time-shift thing happens. because it's ROIRR going through the POES. in human form specifically. so far, from what we know, no other human can do that(the hero actually had to have tomix send his soul there directly in order to find aegis). alternatively, it could just be that it's because he's using secundus' area of the POES, which may or may not be completely out of sync with time on lore, since the area that the hero went to had time flow normally compared to lore. and we have to remember that secundus gained alot of his powers from the roirr half, just like how it seems that a majority of his personality seems to be an amplified, adopted version of vaal's.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 8/11/2017 20:26:53 >
DF  Post #: 4
8/13/2017 1:22:29   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


thats actualy the point of the Bootstrap paradox: it's a closed loop with no origin or end ^^
DF AQW  Post #: 5
8/13/2017 5:13:24   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

The bootstrap paradox follows the model of a negative feedback loop.
A negative feedback loop is one that approaches a given value or set of circumstances (as opposed to a positive one which spirals randomly). Consider successively square rooting numbers; they approach the number 1. This is a negative feedback loop.
Whereas if you successively square numbers (that are greater than 1), this is a positive feedback loop as the numbers never settle, but keep increasing.

While it's strongly debatable whether time travel-- when existing in a complex system-- would ever settle into a negative feedback loop, the bootstrap paradox would be an example of this.

However, to further that analogy, if the system is spiraling into infinitude within a complex system, it follows that at one point in this spiral the positive feedback loop would develop into a negative one, by dint of randomness. Because if the positive feedback loop is truly random, one of its potential states (of which there are infinite) is the state of being a negative feedback loop.
But that's merely a probability, and while it's possible to prove, it's impossible to disprove. Disproving it would be like trying to prove that a given irrational number in base ten doesn't contain a seven.
Just my-- haha-- academic sense of humour.


Anyway, provided you don't get confused by the infinite regress, bootstrap paradoxes can have an origin; because, in truth, they aren't really paradoxes, just a change in sequence of events. The origin would be the stage in which those events were re-ordered; the period between the first case of an incident occurring and the point where the events converge-- the point where each successive occurrence is so close to identical that they no longer influence events (this would be asymptotic).

A true paradox would be, say, travelling back in time and swapping your favourite pen for a younger version of the same pen. Like what Cysero did with the bacon orbs. I believe that discussion has arisen before (and the problem with Cysero's orbs been solved, so to speak; he had a 1/56 chance of not imploding the universe).
DF MQ  Post #: 6
8/13/2017 5:17:48   
Suyo
Member

There is movie called "Predestination" released in 2014 which explains this paradox as a never ending loop where the person is doomed to do what he does over and over again but the life around him moves and a single change would trigger a huge ripple in time itself, this portion of the time is self sustaining.
I am going to withdraw a huge plot point from the movie and say that Secundus is created by himself and the knowledge he passed on flows along in the river of time but he himself is stuck in a whirlpool which sucks him in and throws him out and pulls him in again. In my opinion Forbidden magic is much more than what Secundus used, and what is used was only some spells from that part of magic, demonstrating why that magic is forbidden by trapping him in a loop of time.
He can be called the father of weaving and father of himself in this case.
Rest of the things he did will have their impact, the children ofcourse are one of them in which one of them i.e, Baltael the "first weaver" according to the description of Baltael's Aventail was destined to meet his final moments even after dying by facing off against his creator in SoulAlly form (therefore trapping him also in this loop).
As for the elemental plain, it can be considered as a parallel world where our world is connected to them but they continue to co-exsist, again we can make up our theories but in the end it depends upon the writer to make the story take a certain direction. Maybe the plain has exsisted even before the Lore we live in or created with it as 2 sides of a coin one representing life (flesh & blood) and the other death (souls out of death's reach for e.g. Ash's Archknight saga where princess's souls was taken back by Ash).
Well, there are my thoughts, it might sound confusing but are clear in my mind and i am considering time to be in a continuous flow and whirlpool being hiccups in that river, as in Book 1, the Bacon orbs were taken in a similar manner and you can call that "Phone Booth" a whirlpool creator. In any version of the lore we save we would have to use that Phone booth if we did not lose the orbs, and in this case Vaal and Roirr had to merge to create something bigger than themselves i.e, weaving just like we used the whirlpool to save lore and ensure our own survival.

< Message edited by Suyo -- 8/13/2017 5:19:33 >
Post #: 7
8/18/2017 3:27:36   
Alamiran
Member

quote:

A true paradox would be, say, travelling back in time and swapping your favourite pen for a younger version of the same pen. Like what Cysero did with the bacon orbs. I believe that discussion has arisen before (and the problem with Cysero's orbs been solved, so to speak; he had a 1/56 chance of not imploding the universe).


Actually, Cysero solved the problem by returning the seven extra Bacon Orbs, before he himself came to get each one of them. It would probably have ripped a hole in time if we had lost our battle against SMUDD though, because then we'd have lost all the orbs...

@Above But Secundus is not trapped in a paradox. Up until the point where he sends his past selves back in time, he's bound to do what he can to ensure his own creation, but after that, he can do whatever he wants to.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 8
8/18/2017 7:17:27   
Greyor_42
Member

@shiny_underpants

quote:

A true paradox would be, say, travelling back in time and swapping your favourite pen for a younger version of the same pen.


that's not exactly true. yes, that IS one kind of "true paradox", but it's not the ONLY kind. bootstrap paradoxes are also "true paradoxes" as you put them. and those are only one KIND of paradox. temporal.

the three definitions of paradox:
quote:


1. a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true.
2. a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.
3. a situation, person, or thing that combines contradictory features or qualities.


with this we see that not only is the bootstrap paradox a true one, but many OTHER things that are completely unrelated to time travel are as well.



and yes, a bootstrap paradox DOES go on towards infinity. besides, there's an infinity at BOTH ends of the number line. positive AND negative.
DF  Post #: 9
8/19/2017 3:29:11   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

quote:

~original: @Alamiran
Actually, Cysero solved the problem by returning the seven extra Bacon Orbs, before he himself came to get each one of them. It would probably have ripped a hole in time if we had lost our battle against SMUDD though, because then we'd have lost all the orbs...

What comes into play here is which order he returned the orbs in. Since they're indistinguishable, and they were merged into a single orb... but they're not interchangeable.
Previously I determined that, provided the first and last orbs were in the right place, the orbs in between would reorder themselves in such a way that there was no paradox. Hence the probability wasn't quite as low as I originally though, but it was still 1 in 8*7 (as opposed to 1 in 8!, or 1 in 8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1)

@Greyor_42
I suppose that definition may apply, but I see nothing contradictory about the scenario. But that's subjective. Not being swayed by common sense and all that...
quote:

and yes, a bootstrap paradox DOES go on towards infinity. besides, there's an infinity at BOTH ends of the number line. positive AND negative.

A bootstrap paradox recurs infinitely.
The nature of any particular number line is irrelevant here. What we're dealing with is a countable infinity. It's been brought up in previous discussions, before you'd have been around I believe; the mods weren't too thrilled with how mathematical things got though, so I'll keep it simple. (Actually, if anyone has a copy of that post, or a link to an archive, I would appreciate it; I lost my copy when my PC imploded).
There are multiple types of countable infinities. Some deal with n values (the number assigned to each iteration) of only the natural (positive) numbers, while others deal with both positive and negative ends; these two types of infinity are mathematically incomparable.

*looks around fearfully for a mod

Say we take a scenaro in which someone is the first time traveler. Clearly, linear causality led up to their existence. This is timeline A.
They travel to an earlier point in timeline A, and change the events leading up to their travel of time. This is timeline B.
Timeline C is when the influenced person travels...
And eventually you get timeline n, which is equal to timeline n+1. This is the point where every timeline is identical to the next (within whatever arbitrary range satisfies you).
Timeline A is the origin. It is not infinite; in fact, there is no timeline preceding it. Since timeline A leads to its own modification (and the creation of timeline B), timeline A is the first.
Clearly, we're dealing with a countable infinity with the nth iteration being a natural number.

If we assume that two timelines-- that are so close that the differences are irrelevant-- as identical timelines, we find that there are actually a finite, though astronomical, number of events that can occur.
Or, in mathematical terms,
spoiler:

If we accept that timelines n and n+1 are indistinguishable if every particle in them is within a certain, miniscule range of each other, then no matter how small the range is, our potential timelines are not infinite, as we've just reduced the event space to a finite number of events. They shift from being infinite to simply becoming astronomical.


And, of course, to reiterate, the bootstrap model makes certain assumptions about time travel, in that it operates in a simple, macro-scale feedback loop. This isn't necessarily true.
I have a number of explanations of different things that could happen, but they're all complicated, and probably unintelligible to most members.
DF MQ  Post #: 10
8/19/2017 8:28:33   
Greyor_42
Member

@shiny_underpants

while what you are describing is very similar to a boostrap paradox, it is not the same thing:

quote:

The notion of objects or information which are "self-existing" in this way is often viewed as paradoxical, with several authors referring to a causal loop involving information or objects without origin as a bootstrap paradox, an information paradox, or an ontological paradox. The use of "bootstrap" in this context refers to the expression "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" and to Robert A. Heinlein's time travel story "By His Bootstraps". The term "time loop" is sometimes used to refer to a causal loop, but although they appear similar, causal loops are unchanging and self-originating, whereas time loops are constantly resetting.


you're describing a time loop, not a causal one. what vaal and roirr are a part of is very much a causal loop HEAVILY involving information without origin. roirr only knows about tanislav's last will because his father tanislav used it to liquefy his village and save him. but tanislav could never have DONE that without being told about the ritual and how to do it by roirr himself. thus, roirr learns about tanislav's last will because he taught it to tanislav.
DF  Post #: 11
8/19/2017 16:37:22   
GammaCavy
Member

We're all overlooking one source of knowledge. Vaal knows a lot of unusual and disturbing bits of lore himself, and I recall Roir seeming surprised by some of what Vaal knew. Vaal could have figured out the mechanics of Tanislav's Last Will himself, as he seems to know several uses for it.
quote:

Seal of Ativa. Childsplay. I would have used something far worse. Or maybe make them use a forbidden magic to open the door.
Ha! Something like Tanislav's Last Will. They would have to kill an entire village full of people to make a key to the door. Yeah, that would be fun to watch.

So, is it possible, that armed with the knowledge that such a thing existed, he and the ChaosWeavers before him invented/reinvented much of the apparently source-less knowledge that Secundus passed on to Roir?
DF  Post #: 12
8/19/2017 16:48:37   
Greyor_42
Member

@gammacavy

either way, it would have been a result of the loop they're a part of, since vaal wouldn't have known about tanislav's last will unless tanislav himself used it either. and again, tanislav never would have done so if roirr never taught it to him, which could only happen if roirr went back in time to do so.
DF  Post #: 13
8/19/2017 17:02:23   
GammaCavy
Member

Still, the mechanics of the magic were quite possibly invented after Tanislav was given it, used it, and killed himself. All anyone would know was that something that came to be called Tanislav's last will was used, and pieced together details of why later. I did not get the sense that Roir freely dispensed knowledge to others.
DF  Post #: 14
8/21/2017 4:26:59   
Alamiran
Member

@Above You DO know that Vaal made Roirr write the ritual down right? That was probably because otherwise, hw himself wouldn't have known about it, as Secundus and Roirr would've been the only ones who knew about the ritual, and neither of them would've told other about it.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 15
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [DragonFable] >> DragonFable General Discussion >> Secundus, Forbidden Magic, and Time Travel *SPOILERS*
Jump to:



Advertisement




Icon Legend
New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Forum Content Copyright © 2017 Artix Entertainment, LLC.

"AdventureQuest", "DragonFable", "MechQuest", "EpicDuel", "BattleOn.com", "AdventureQuest Worlds", "WarpForce.com", "Artix Entertainment", "Artix"
and all game character names are either trademarks or registered trademarks of Artix Entertainment, LLC. All rights are reserved.
PRIVACY POLICY | Forum Home


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition