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10/14/2017 10:07:02   
thulsa doom

VL seems decent enough. I agree that it should target tree monsters instead of two though.
TBH my biggest peeve with the Class is that Aspect of the Bat isn't loopable enough ( I just got DC'd while ranking up... ).
AQ AQW  Post #: 51
10/14/2017 10:16:29   
G Man


Other classes already fill the role of framing better, there's little reason for my to use it over say, Abyssal Angel, Blaze Binder, or Chaos Slayer. Basically any class that can consistently hit 3+ targets is better as killing 3 targets is killing more than 2 which speeds up farming by a little, or by a lot depending on luck, and other scenarios...
Plus we have a ton of multi hitters/farming classes, it would've been interesting to see a tank style class, or for them to play with the idea of thralls and make a battle pet class, or something.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 52
10/14/2017 10:22:07   

With Sonar Scream hitting 4 targets, Devour Blood and Ghoul Gouge should also hit 4 targets so the skills will have more synergy. (they could adjust the damage accordingly)
They could even change the Auto-Attack (Slash) to hit 4 targets too, but that might be stretching it too much.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 53
10/14/2017 12:10:17   
Snow Angel, Bug Hunter, Class Tester

Vampire Lord was designed to be a farming class, yes, but it was also designed to be a farming class for 2 targets. We weren't trying to make it become the new meta farming class, as it's not good to be breaking the meta with each new class that comes out. We wanted it to be something that could still compete for the most part with some of the meta classes, but wasn't going to rise above them all. During our testing, we found that it actually does do fairly well in competing with some of the classes like Shaman, Blaze Binder, or EI, though it's not necessarily going to be better than them.

The AoE 4 on Sonar Scream was pretty much intended to help make farming in areas with more than 2 enemies a little bit easier, as it's got the longest range so you can pull far enemies in with Sonar Scream and not worry about them being out of range of your other skills.

Aspect of the Bat we designed to have pros and cons to it, and in our testing we found that there are times when you want to use it and times when you'd really not be as inclined to use it. Against some of the higher-HP mobs, keeping Aspect of the Bat up can be beneficial (though you'll probably want to come out of it sometimes for some of the effects found on Vampire Form), but for times where you're doing a lot of running around killing low-HP mobs (i.e. Dreadrock farming), it's a lot more of a challenge to keep Aspect of the Bat up and you don't really need it as much anyways, so you'll probably be spending more time in Vampire Form. Again, the idea was to make the class a viable option without rising to be clearly better than all the other farming classes. I'd encourage people to try it in some farming situations beyond just that of ranking it up, as you might find it works pretty well.

If nothing else, it makes a pretty good AFK farmer for when you're watching TV or something and just working on grinding something in the same room.
AQ AQW  Post #: 54
10/14/2017 12:50:21   
Aura Knight

The 4 target AoE feels out of place. Rest of skills only hit 2. Would be nice if there was one more skill which hit 4. Perhaps Devour Blood. With Sonar Scream you get monsters to attack you and could use your first skill to make sure you heal a lot more. But, such a change may make the class too good. Not that I'd mind of course. Also, I'd like aspect of the bat a lot more if it didn't have to select us when used. Not a fan of having to click x on our character. Makes me miss the esc function more. Vampire Lord has consistent damage which is very good to see in a farming class. But I'd welcome any improvements also.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 55
10/14/2017 12:56:33   
G Man

I never expected it to be a new meta, or to outclass BB/EI/Shaman/Etc but I'm just saying that those classes, which are available year round, and forever, are objectively better.
I'm also not saying it's BAD, it's FAR from bad, but it's just not AMAZING like some of those classes are..
Really only "minor" (depending on who you ask) things need to be fixed, and it'd be a PERFECT class.
Again, as I pointed out, if classes are being allowed to be made with no drawbacks, and a class comes along with a similar skill or set of skills that HAS them, that just feels.... off...
Don't get me wrong, when in Aspect of the Bat I shred through mobs, but I can also shred through mobs with other classes while not taking extra damage, having a higher skill cost, and doing "less" damage (All crits makes my AA ~ double what it is normally, so not "less" but less in the sense that I'd be doing ~900 crits normally)
Pertaining to the R4 passives there's also no need to nerf overall crit chance, when yet again, tons of other classes have similar boost with no drawbacks.

Again, this is FAR from BAD, but I just have no reason to use this what so ever over Abyssal Angel or Blazebinder for farming, and Light Caster or Ultra Omniknight for single targets.
It brings nothing really interesting, or amazing to the game, it's just another mostly self sustaining farmer

< Message edited by G Man -- 10/14/2017 14:25:48 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 56
10/14/2017 13:41:35   
Aura Knight

Couple questions about Vampire Lord. First, does devour blood not crit or am I just unlucky? Also, sonar scream doesn't seem to do damage. Is that how it's meant to be?

< Message edited by Aura Knight -- 10/14/2017 13:45:18 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 57
10/14/2017 13:46:31   
G Man

I've found it does not crit.
I even keep looping Aspect of the Bat when raking at nightmare, and I did not get a single crit.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 58
10/14/2017 14:14:21   
orc orc orc

Yup, Devour Blood does not crit for me as well. Likely that it cannot crit.

VL seems to have DPS comparable to AbA. The problem is that it only targets 2 enemies which hurts it as a farming class. If it hits 3 targets at minimum it'd be a contender for top farming classes.
Post #: 59
10/14/2017 16:41:36   

imo this class need a buff to even be considered being used over BB or EI, even just for fun. It should either hit more targets, or reduce cooldown time by a lot ( Ghoul Gourge and Sonar scream specifcally) and on top of either of those two it should get damage buff
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 60
10/14/2017 17:10:02   
Silver Sky Magician

VL could be pretty amazing if the rank 10 passive was changed to a sort of 'Blood Frenzy' type passive whereby the more enemies you kill, the greater your passive damage buff up to a maximum of whatever number you guys think is reasonable for this to be the best class to farm 2 targets at once. Won't be unbalanced because it still can't compete with 3-target farmers for general use, but it'll have an interesting niche for taking out 2 monsters at a time (e.g. Femme Cult Worshippers)
Epic  Post #: 61
10/14/2017 18:22:20   

Further thoughts on this class. I personally think it does a respectable amount of damage, even on single targets. In my opinion it's another chrono assassin like case, where people drew blanks and people thought it was a terrible class initially.

At least for higher HP mobs and bosses, a decent amount of your damage output is lost, if you always constantly apply aspect of the bat and never apply your debuffs first before going into Aspect. The DoT from gogue and the extra 30% from deafened does add up over time.
Post #: 62
10/14/2017 18:55:12   
Aura Knight

A few numbers on Vampire Lord. Only damages. This is with level 79 full luck and a static weapon.

Base Damages

Slash: 340 non-crit 1186 crit
Devour Blood: 242 non-crit
Ghoul Gouge: 582 non-crit 2032 crit 397 DoT

Deafen Active

Slash: 441 non-crit 1541 crit
Devour Blood: 315 non-crit
Ghoul Gouge: 757non-crit 2641 crit 516 DoT

Aspect of the Bat Active

Slash: 692 crit
Devour Blood: 141 non-crit
Ghoul Gouge: 1185 crit

Deafen + Aspect of the Bat Active

Slash: 899 crit
Devour Blood: 184 non-crit
Ghoul Gouge: 1541 crit

Because of the crit boost from Aspect of the Bat, it wasn't possible to get non-crit damages for some skills. Only one that had non-crit was devour blood which doesn't crit at all.

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 63
10/14/2017 21:03:00   

So, this class was built wuth test server in mind, considering that, how well does it hold up in it's intendend field, vs other classes?
AQW  Post #: 64
10/14/2017 21:29:03   
Snow Angel, Bug Hunter, Class Tester

Pre- and post-rewrite are pretty tough to determine because of how different the two servers are. Things really change a lot of PTR so rankings and the like are probably fairly likely to change. There's also a chance that classes themselves are going to be tweaked once the rewrite is finished.

That said, we did keep the test servers in mind when testing this class, but the fact of the matter is most people play on the live servers and the live servers are currently the "main" servers. That means that we did most of the testing on live servers and did the balancing in relation to how live servers work, rather than trying to make this class one focused on the PTR servers and just letting the live servers get the class however it showed up.
AQ AQW  Post #: 65
10/14/2017 22:57:00   
Rancore AQW

VL is a fine class imo.Just the fact it has the same skills updated on the old vampire class it shows it's not a class you would overuse anyday.But this is supposed to be anniversary class and for those standards i don't see it fit anywhere.Arch Paladin last year proved itself more than once that is a great class for soloing,pvp and even farming (if you don't have anything else).Artifact Hunter with it's deflect and low damage was a one of a kind special class that was interesting to use and still is.Ultra Omni Knight dealt fast damage and mini fast spammy crits which made it great to beat mid hp bosses fast and be really great for 1v1 pvp.Shinobi is also an overall nice class for the time it was released.
For the 5th skill it says 500% increase on crit chance and haste but it seems like it's a rather poor crit chance.I was expect a real 500% increase like hitting 10k in 1 turn and then running out of mana,similar to Cryomancer with it's mini nukes and then running out of mana.
So far VL hasn't shown any potential to be used for anything,except 2v2 where it can benefit a bit as a debuffer class but i still don't think it's good enough.
During pvp it lost many times to simple classes like warrior or bersker.And imo that's a very bad skills damage implementation.
For farming it's not even good compared to Scarlet Sorc in terms of damage.And the mana management is rather poor in pvp.

Pros of the class:
-Fun class to use
-Great animations but poor drawn skills icons
-Can help out people who don't have a farming class like blaze or abysal or eternal during their period of completing storylines,etc.
-Easy to farm (got it within 3 hours or so with help of friends)
-Great mana management during farming (i never ran out of mana during farming)
-Can reduce damage up to 50% which is helpful against stronger monsters who can deal dmg
-Auto attack that can hit 2 enemies
-1 skill that can be used without mana

Cons of the class:
-Low to poor damage even with 5th skill used and with 10 rank passive
-Poor mana usage during pvp
-Could use dodge or some kind of avoid buff
-Low criticals,low non criticals
-Poor heal
-Cooldown on skills can be reduced,they seem a bit slow to inflict and mixed with low damage it's not a good combo.Lower mana on skills too.From 25 to 20.
-Not representing a proper anniversary class in any aspect except paying respect towards older classes and being in their kind of style (in my opinion)

-Ok dot that can be improved (should be a LOT better)

-Ghoul corge says that it inflicts a debuff on enemies and then dot.Does it mean the dot is the debuff or there is a debuff like (reduced defense/attack/haste) that is not in the skills description ?

Improvements that should be done:
-Higher damage inflicted when there is 5th skill used
-Higher criticals done when there is 5th skill used
-Better self heal that would be improved by leeching off the enemies,not only to rely on that
-Higher dot
-More debuffs on enemies and more self buffs.

< Message edited by Rancore AQW -- 10/14/2017 23:01:03 >
Post #: 66
10/14/2017 23:50:18   

Thing is with all the suggested improvements such as the "I want more damage right now", it probably won't happen, it's still a viable farming class in its own way, just not for the damage aspect of it.

VL is kinda similar to abyssal angel, in terms of damage. It's like a little less or maybe even with abyssal angel I dunno, I'll let Sol or someone do the numbers comparison. And I don't think anyone criticised about abyssal angel's damage.

At the end of the day, you're not forced to use VL. If you want your damage, shaman is obviously waiting in player's inventory and banks ready to be used or any other farming class you have mind.
Post #: 67
10/15/2017 0:07:32   
G Man

Even without numbers, I feel Abyssal Angel is significantly better; A DoT along with the AA, the haste boost is reliably loopable (I find you have to hit "Aspect of the Bat" the INSTANT it's done (on full luck at least) or else I lose access to it for a few more seconds), and the crit boost is also loopable alongside the haste boost.
While I might not be critting 100% of the time like Vampire Lord, I find myself critting VERY often, plus the DoT builds up quicker, and helps compensate for the non crits.
PLUS I don't take more damage, or do less damage.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 68
10/15/2017 0:21:07   

After getting it to rank 5, I'm pretty satisfied with VL overall, the animations are pretty cool, the cooldowns are just nice, not too spammy and I like the range on its skills
but personally I think that the damage could be raised a bit, was kinda disappointed there weren't any special effects on the AA, I was thinking the defence debuff(maybe change it to require stacks or smtg) should be on the AA, deafen should reduce haste or hit chance instead, the cooldown on aspect of the bat could be reduced to make it fully loopable and maybe lower the drawbacks a bit (the drawbacks may not be as obvious on max lvl'ed players but are immense on lower lvl players) and maybe lower the manacosts a bit (I have no mana problems but lower lvl players will suffer a lot especially after activating skill 5)

btw, I'm not too sure about this, but does VL actually have mage mana regen? I'm not recieving any mana from getting hit, but I gain a ton of mana whenever my AA or skills crit
AQW  Post #: 69
10/15/2017 0:21:13   
Aura Knight

Damage seems to be okay on Vampire Lord. Would be nice if some skills hit 3 instead of 2. I do like the speed given from Aspect of the Bat. Very useful when farming. And it would seem the class is suited best for low hp monster farming.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 70
10/15/2017 0:21:50   
Edme MacHeath

The reason nobody criticized AbA's damage is because it's one of the highest DPS farming classes. It actually surpasses shaman according to Solanacaeae's notes the last time I checked. I really disagreed on shaman being weaker but I'm not the one with the notes.
Abyssal Angel has lots of damage.

I'm really disliking these comparisons towards abyssal angel and eternal inversionist. EI has 4 skills that are all AoE skills that hit 3+ enemies, and EI has a ranged auto. EI doesn't need damage because everything deals damage. EI doesn't have a skill that only is a heal or a buff.
every skill on EI is focused towards damage, no effectonlyskills, and no selftarget skills.

Abyssal has top tier damage according to above.

I'm not voting for damage for VL, I'm voting for hitting more targets. VL would be insane if it could hit 4 enemies with it's auto attack.
I think that alone could change a lot. Maybe make one or both of the skills hit 3 enemies.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 10/15/2017 0:29:48 >
AQ  Post #: 71
10/15/2017 0:55:21   


I'm not voting for damage for VL, I'm voting for hitting more targets. VL would be insane if it could hit 4 enemies with it's auto attack.

I was think that at first but then I realized that double its AA target count would be the same as doubling its dps so we should probably keep that in mind

Maybe make one or both of the skills hit 3 enemies.

I do agree with this, though more targets on devour blood would probably make VL too strong, so maybe change Ghoul Gouge to target 3 or 4 mobs instead

why is VL's 70% AA dealing more dmg than EI's 90% AA?
VL deals 409/1434
EI deals 305/1083
both at rank 10 using nightlocke axe with lvl 83 full luck enh and lvl 80 spiral carve on the wep
even after factoring in their passives the numbers still don't make sense (unless ageless's intellect buff also increases VL's AA even though its physical)

< Message edited by Aggreron -- 10/15/2017 1:08:23 >
AQW  Post #: 72
10/15/2017 1:03:10   

Hmm, maybe abyssal angel was doing more damage than I gave it credit for.

I'd be interested to see what VL's numbers are like, when Sol has the time for it.

I'm not in it for the damage either, but I wouldn't be opposed to increasing the target limit.

Post #: 73
10/15/2017 1:06:10   

ArchKnightshade of AQW GD/Q&A/Guides

My notes calculate pure DPS, which is just a rough guideline to go by. In practice, there are countless variables (lag, number of monsters in the room, respawn time, cooldowns, monster HP, party buffs) that can make a class that has great DPS fall under those with less DPS but other advantages. AbA has the best group DPS last time I checked (technically, SSoT would against multiple, high-HP enemies like the Nightlocke weapons, but an important part about farming in most cases is the ability to damage all enemies roughly evenly), which would really shine in the Tower of Doom or /shadowrealm, but less so when dealing with weaker enemies. I prefer to use Shaman when farming BPP, for example, since it involves a bit of running that resets the CDs as well as Brightscythe Reavers, which have little enough HP so that Shaman's 2-3 combo always wipes them out if it doesn't miss. AbA, on the other hand, can one shot the Reavers with a well-placed crit, but if you don't get crits (which isn't super uncommon), it'll take a few extra seconds to kill the two Reavers, which adds up over time.

I've finished grabbing both Vampire Lords, but I've yet to rank them up. I'll do a usual analysis of their DPS hopefully before the weekend's over, but I just want to emphasize again that DPS is not necessarily reflective of how good of a farmer a class. Most farming classes have their niche, and it's possible that people just haven't found the one VL shines best in.
DF AQW  Post #: 74
10/15/2017 1:42:10   
Edme MacHeath

I've come up with a draft for testing farming class DPS/Kills. I think this could work.

I think a starting point for these calculations should look like this:

We take the farming classes we want to analyse and run them through like this...
All test are done alone for calculation of the class DPS

Test 1: 4 monster room 1k HP
Test 2: 4 Monster room 2k HP
Test 3: 4 monster room 4k HP
Test 4: 4 monster room 8k HP

I think we should do 5 runs on each, similar to how we've been doing with solos. Let's see how many kills we can get in 1 minute and how the DPS averaged during that time.

Repeat the same with a 3 monster room and then a 2.
Test 1: 3 Monster Room 1k HP
Test 2: 3 Monster Room 2k HP
Test 3: 3 Monster Room 4k HP
Test 4: 3 Monster Room 8k HP.

Test 1: 2 Monster Room 1k HP
Test 2: 2 Monster Room 2k HP
Test 3: 2 Monster Room 4k HP
Test 4: 2 Monster Room 8k HP

You may choose to also repeat with boosts and awe.

As long as survival isn't something that you think is slowing down a class, which shouldn't be considering that AbA, Shaman, Paladin, Chaos Slayer, VL, Blazebinder, and even Daimon survive just fine againat a normal enemy, the DPS should be as accurate as possible.
Given you can run them through towerofdoom floors if you really want to test their survival strength. Or use battleground rooms for 2 enemy rooms.

Given we cannot control respawn speed or lag to some extent. Party buffs can be avoided and cooldowns seem to be a minor issue.

I will be using this method from now on, as it is as accurate as I could come up with.
This method will be able to test both DPS and kills. Feel free to suggest improvements.

This basic idea is to be able to reproduce this with the variables of Monster HP and # of Monsters.
The best way to do this is just to make things as fair as possible.

I do agree that oneshotting enemies changes things, but if we do more enemies, it might even out more as in more enemies means that the times where an enemy is oneshot is less of a variable.
So fighting 30 or 50 or even more enemies, if you get 10 or so oneshots, it's not as much of a change as fighting 10 enemies and getting 5 oneshots. This doesn't work perfectly, but its as accurate of a test as I can think of.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 10/15/2017 1:53:08 >
AQ  Post #: 75
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