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RE: =DF= Design Notes November 3: Blood Moon Challenges, SWoT DA testing, and more!

 
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11/5/2017 0:44:59   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


@Greyor
Thats actualy a nice usage of Umbra and Antumbra. As for chains ignoring immobility, thats great!
By the way... would be too much for the Doomsday clock to have a clock bell sound when it hits xD? Would feel so satisfying to hear a loud Big Ben "BONG" when it hits the target.

@Greldracion
Oh, it had been mentioned waaay back in the thread to reduce the hits but increase the damage proportionaly, so the hits still deal the same damage, just in less hits.

< Message edited by ergotth -- 11/5/2017 0:50:33 >
DF AQW  Post #: 126
11/5/2017 0:50:40   
LouisCyphere
Member

Well, I don't think I have to add anymore to SWoT since a lot of you guys already said what I've wanted to say.
A bit late for the party.


As for the rewards, the Necro Paragon Helm and Cape are probably the best Non-DA Defensive Helm and Cape since both of the gear have high MPM and BPD stats. I would advise Non-DAs to get them.
I'm also curious on the next Challenge battle that we're getting.
Are we finally going to see Necro Paragon reskin/class soon?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 127
11/5/2017 0:57:29   
Greldracion
Member

@Ergotth,

The problem I see with reducing the hits, however, is that there will be less chances to crit on the multi, which reduces the average damage of the skill and means that Penumbra is less effective at providing the most damage possible to the move, since Penumbra only effects Crit damage.

Edit: To be frank, I'm only suggesting kepping the multi 4 hits because it currently is one of the ONLY reliable and appealing staple damage move on the class (others being impaling hands and gear of time). Reducing it's hits could cut the move's power to an undesirable level, but that could just be me.

< Message edited by Greldracion -- 11/5/2017 1:03:01 >
AQ  Post #: 128
11/5/2017 1:01:06   
TimeKiller
Member

soon my friend http://i67.tinypic.com/2heiwih.jpg

_____________________________

DF AQW Epic  Post #: 129
11/5/2017 1:01:24   
#2
Member

Yeah so I was just testing some things and when I was doing the "Jack Crescent (and Guitar)" challenge with the SWoT it certainly took a while and then I went through with the AoT and the battle was over much quicker and with the same equipment, so there could definitely be a few tweaks to how SWoT skills make it overall more powerful of a class.
Post #: 130
11/5/2017 1:45:50   
Hermitpriest
Member

@TimeKiller

Ah that image just reminded me of something, if the calendar armor characters are the only ones not effected by the whole time changing thing in the Inn, then does mean Togslayer is being counted as a calendar armor? Just a bit off topic but I had a need to get that thought out.

As for the multi I'm gonna agree with Greldracion with the keeping the multi at 4 hits, not just in a usability sense but in terms of animation 4 hits just fits better.
DF  Post #: 131
11/5/2017 1:47:19   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

As for the rewards, the Necro Paragon Helm and Cape are probably the best Non-DA Defensive Helm and Cape since both of the gear have high MPM and BPD stats. I would advise Non-DAs to get them.

I'll add to that that the cape is by a big margin, the best cape in the game.
It's pretty ridiculous.
(I guess also that the helm is the best non-DC, non-rare helm. Defensive Baltale is really close though, and I'm take that over this, but y'know)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 132
11/5/2017 1:17:43   
Cherubic Card
Member

quote:

I'll add to that that the cape is by a big margin, the best cape in the game.


For Non-Da, I could see it. But the only thing it has going for it over the Aika Backguard is a higher STR/DEX/INT, and only by one. From there it gives less luck, and zero Bonus. It's not bad, but to say it's the best by a large margin seems to be stretchin' it, unless I'm missing something.
Post #: 133
11/5/2017 1:34:34   
Andlu
Member

it has +10 all resistances which blows almost anything away

I don't see aika coming even close to it
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 134
11/5/2017 1:35:35   
Lineolata
Member
 

Aika Backguard: Bonuses: Block +2, Dodge +2, Crit +10, Magic Def +8, Pierce Def +8, Melee Def +8, WIS +9, END +5, CHA +9, LUK +9, INT +8, DEX +8, STR +8, Bonus +8, All +2, Immobility +4, Nature +10, Darkness +10

Necro Paragon Cape IV: Bonuses: Block +10, Dodge +10, Parry +10, Crit +10, Magic Def +5, Pierce Def +5, Melee Def +5, WIS +5, END +5, CHA +5, LUK +5, INT +9, DEX +9, STR +9, All +10

NPC IV has significantly better BPD, the same Crit, slightly worse MPM, worse WIS, same END, worse CHA and LUK, slightly better mainstat, no Bonus, and MUCH better All resist, enough to make up for lacking any other resistances. The All resist is king when defensive stats are concerned, and before this Nick's Toasty Cape VIII was the best option.

Nick's Toasty Cape VIII: Bonuses: Block +1, Dodge +1, Parry +1, Crit +8, Magic Def +9, Pierce Def +9, Melee Def +9, WIS +10, END +10, CHA +9, LUK +7, INT +6, DEX +6, STR +6, Bonus +9, Immobility +4, All +10

Toasty has worse BPD, worse crit, better MPM, better WIS/END/CHA/LUK, worse mainstat, much better Bonus, and the same All resist, along with a bit of extra Immobility.
AQ DF  Post #: 135
11/5/2017 1:52:40   
Greyor_42
Member

the main issue with all resist, though, is that it WEAKENS your healing capabilities. an all resist of +10 actually cuts healing by 10%(a potion that would heal 500 would instead heal 450). so if you're going to opt for a high all resist, you'll have to find gear that reduces your heal resist by at least close to the same amount, so that you don't handicap yourself.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 11/5/2017 1:54:22 >
DF  Post #: 136
11/5/2017 1:55:43   
Lineolata
Member
 

Not universally, since heals in DF don't work consistently. The ones that actually do Health or Heal damage do, but many heals directly increase your HP without bothering about your resistances. Also, as of yet mana isn't an actual element in the engine despite equipment having it so MP heals will always ignore All resist.
AQ DF  Post #: 137
11/5/2017 4:10:18   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Greldracion - Well, in regards to a rotation it really depends on the boss' resists (whether they have any Immob. resist in particular, or if they have too much for Gear to help with landing stuns) and attack patterns. I suppose if you just mean a standard high-health quest boss rather than a challenge fight, then the best strategy I've found so far is to keep Gear up always and make frequent use of Shadow People by managing cooldowns. So, for example:

Clock > Umbra > Gear > People > Umbra > Eternity > Spikes > Umbra > Gear > Spikes > Umbra > Antumbra > Spikes > Umbra > Antumbra > People
-200----------=---283.33-499.5crit-------------750crit-----262.5--------------283.33---262.5------------------------------262.5----------------------------499.5crit

Using my Luk value for the sake of convenience (41% chance to crit at 199% damage), that comes out to a total of ~5,666% damage over 9 turns (not counting Umbra or Antumbra as turns), for about 630% damage per turn.

You questioned whether Hands would be a worthwhile choice, but there are problems with it that make it nowhere near the 450% or 655% damage that you claim it is. Certainly it's 200-300% base damage, but the DoT only hits 4 times (that was my mistake, had a typo saying 5 turns in my rundown of the skills, sorry about that) so it's 200-300% extra weapon damage, but that DoT is element-fixed, can't crit, and weapon damage only accounts for ~2/3 of your total damage in an offensive build at least. But, let's see how it'd go if I worked that in. I'm going to include a visual cues for Gear's debuff as well, to help understand the issue; turns under the red "tabs" are affected by the debuff:

-------------------------------\____________________________________/-----------------------\____________
Clock > Spikes > Umbra > Gear > Hands > People > Umbra > Eternity > Spikes > Umbra > Gear > Spikes
-200------175---------------283.33----300----499.5crit-------------750crit------175---------------283.33---262.5
------------------------------------------------50--------50---------------------33.33~---33.33~

So, 9 turns again, but only ~5,014% damage this time, for ~557% damage per turn, and People still has another 9 turns left on its CD at that point. See, the problem is two-fold; one, if you're trying to keep Hands up while also juggling the final(s) and everything else, you're not going to be Umbral/Antumbral-ing enough to keep Gear up 100% of the time. Likewise, you're not lowering the CD on People as much leading to less damage contribution for that skill. Essentially, you can consider each use of Umbral/Antumbral to lower the effective CD of People, thus raising its average damage per turn; if a skill does 500% every 14 turns, that's ~35.7% damage per turn, but if you can do it every 7 turns that's ~71.4% instead.

Now, that's not at all to say that Hands should never be used, as you're going to have turns where People isn't coming back up any time soon and you've got an extra turn before Gear runs out. If the enemy is tough then that turn will likely be filled with a stun, shield or heal instead, but if you're going all-out on offense then yes, there are occasions when it's not a bad idea to use the skill. They're just not very common.

Do note though that Penumbra will most likely change things when it's working. On that note, and not to Greldracion in particular, I had an idea earlier; perhaps Penumbra could also add some Boost in addition to its critical damage boost, and perhaps for a turn longer. It would be a simple way to buff the class' numbers while also continuing along the strategic playstyle, instead of just throwing bigger numbers at other skills. And honestly, making Penumbra important in general rather than just for the finals sounds like a really cool playstyle, having both a buff and a debuff that you want to try and keep up constantly by managing your CDs with the Ant/Umbral dance. Just a thought though, I'm not sure how well it would work in practice. And I think Penumbra would have to have some damage added to it if it was going to be a more general-use skill as well, or else it might fall into the trap of some other Boost skills which don't cover their turn loss well enough to be worth using, outside of its obvious current use of buffing the finals of course. Might be tricky to balance. But I figured I'd mention it because I thought i was a really interesting idea.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 11/5/2017 18:55:01 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 138
11/5/2017 5:06:46   
LouisCyphere
Member

By the way, how are the Tomix and Verly going to address DDSoE/UDSoE users when using SWoT during combat?
Because clicking them while moving is a bit difficult.

Is Penumbra (Crit damage Boost) working now? It seems like though.

< Message edited by LouisCyphere -- 11/5/2017 6:28:47 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 139
11/5/2017 7:55:55   
Branl
Member

The way I play, The Necro Paragon Cape isn't of much use to me.
The All Resist Stuff actually hurts me since I use Dragon Lord as my main armor (The ability to swap between Hyper Offensive to Hyper Defensive makes it far and away the most diverse armor in the game). Maybe I'll pick it up and use and All Resist set once I get low enough to use Dragon Soul, then cycle between it and a defensive skill every turn. Then when I'm ready to heal back, equipment my normal B/D/P armor with The Hide Behind, then equip a regular cape.

Maybe the way to go is to equip M/P/M armor, since the DL already has a 100% Glancing Blow Chance Defensive skill. I've always liked experimenting in this game.
Post #: 140
11/5/2017 9:29:55   
PurgeXZ
Member

Other suggestions:
Nerf Cauldron sisters. Their candy fuel move is too OP, and doesn't let me get any good damage on them unless I've got an accuracy raising move, which SWoT doesn't have.

Fun drinking game: Take a shot every time one of the sisters Blocks, parries, or dodges your attack while in SWoT. Yeah, you'll pass out soon enough.

< Message edited by PurgeXZ -- 11/5/2017 9:36:52 >
Post #: 141
11/5/2017 9:56:13   
Da Awesomancer
Member

The Cauldron Sisters aren't that hard with SWoT, PurgeXZ. Just stun a sister who resists your main damage type first turn, pile as much damage on her as possible before she can recover, and finish her off with Shadow People.

Then move on to the one who doesn't resist your damage, shifting into Umbra Form and nailing her with a Gear, Impaling Hands, and Phantom Hit Combo. If she's still alive, then just build up more charges while finishing her off.

Then, you should only have one sister left who resists your attacks. Heal if you need to, then finish building up charges. Shift back into Umbra Form and hit her with a Gear of Time, then follow up with a Penumbra to boost your attack. End your Umbra Form with an Eternity Ray. If she survives that, which is relatively unlikely if you're stated well, then just bash her around a bit more until she's down.

No nerfing necessary.
DF AQW  Post #: 142
11/5/2017 9:57:39   
Branl
Member

Ok so, The HideBehind Cape seems to be providing +40 Melee/Pierce/Magic Defense as well as the normal +20 B/D/P.
There is no way this in intentional, right?
Post #: 143
11/5/2017 11:02:30   
S Prime
Member

quote:

it has +10 all resistances which blows almost anything away

I don't see aika coming even close to it


About Necro Paragon Cape IV: O.O I did not know that, that's nifty. Don't usually care about heals to begin with so that's pretty sweet.

quote:

Ok so, The HideBehind Cape seems to be providing +40 Melee/Pierce/Magic Defense as well as the normal +20 B/D/P.
There is no way this in intentional, right?


Considering how much a tax -40 all is, I'd say it might be.
DF  Post #: 144
11/5/2017 11:16:11   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


@Greldracion
thats actualy a very good argument.

@Louis
I suggested just ditching the weapon spinning in battle. Would also reduce the lag.
DF AQW  Post #: 145
11/5/2017 11:41:12   
The ErosionSeeker
Member

quote:

the main issue with all resist, though, is that it WEAKENS your healing capabilities. an all resist of +10 actually cuts healing by 10%(a potion that would heal 500 would instead heal 450). so if you're going to opt for a high all resist, you'll have to find gear that reduces your heal resist by at least close to the same amount, so that you don't handicap yourself.


That may be true, but it also doesn't matter because Nick's Toasty also had +10 All, so the only difference is slightly less heal compared to Aika, although your other increased resistances far improve that. And besides, if you wanted to use a sick +heal set, you would be using Hidebehind anyways.
DF AQW  Post #: 146
11/5/2017 12:19:54   
Branl
Member

quote:

Considering how much a tax -40 all is, I'd say it might be.

That's actually really nice for M/P/M gear sets.
I understand the amount of M/P/M you can stack should be lower than the amount of B/D/P you can stack, given it's flat out better in effect, but you could get almost double the max M/P/M with Poelala and the Hide Behind (although before, +6 B/D/P was not worth -40 All).

Makes sense if its intentional, very few classes can actually effectively handle taking 40% more damage from everything.
Post #: 147
11/5/2017 13:04:12   
Chewy905
Member

The cauldron sisters healing prevention doesnt always show up on the debuff screen, causing me to waste potions when i shouldnt
Post #: 148
11/5/2017 15:41:38   
Greldracion
Member

@Sakurai the Cursed

Thanks for the detailed explanation, though there are a couple things I'd like to point out with your rotations. These rotations assume level 85 with what I can deduce to be 200 LUK with an extra 50-60 from items. This actually creates a scenario where the less LUK a player has, the more they lose from the Ant/Umbra strategy. at only LUK from equipment, the Ant/Umbra strategy loses about 250% total Crit damage over the course of 9 turns compared to only about 200% from my Hands strategy. The DoT also didn't seem to be incorporated accurately, as the base DoT would be 33-50% base damage per turn and the boosted should be 50-75% per res nerf turn. The DoT is also 5 turns as you originally stated, which adds more damage to the impaling hands rotation. So in terms of a pure offensive build (200 LUK, 195 dmg Stat) the Ant/Umbra rotation works best. However, for any other build, you are losing some damage with the final skills and, therefore, both builds become much more even.

< Message edited by Greldracion -- 11/5/2017 15:53:31 >
AQ  Post #: 149
11/5/2017 17:52:04   
GammaCavy
Member

Just came back form fighting Extreme Mode Akriloth... and it was an overwhelming, onesided victory for the SWoT and her little dragon. The Final skill on the left cut him down to one third his normal Hp on my first attack, and set the trend. Now, if only Penumbra were working
DF  Post #: 150
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