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RE: Elementals

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11/6/2017 22:02:34   

We talk about the gemstones in certain types of elementals, but only some have those stones. Think about Stormheads, the rolling sandstone elementals, or even Slimes! None of those have any visible loci, so does that mean that they are naturally occurring? It seems that way, but then what is the origin of the gem-wearing elementals? Is there any significance?

I do agree with Divine Nexus that some must be naturally forming, but which ones? Where do the loci come from?

Just brainstorming some questions.
Post #: 26
11/6/2017 22:10:11   
Chaosweaver Amon

Something else to consider, I think, is the concept of Elementals being created in our world. Theano created a greater elemental. That is no easy task, especially without the direct use of magic. This makes me wonder if it's possible for other Elementals to be created in our plane? Or even if there is the possibility of numerous greater Elementals within a single element?
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 27
11/6/2017 23:11:36   
Sakurai the Cursed

For the question of non-gem elementals, well, I think we need to better define what we're talking about here. The requirement of having an item to bind itself to is only applicable specifically to Spirits who are native to the Elemental Planes, and who don't wish to take the long and vulnerable process of coalescing their true essence into our plane. The various non-gem elementals would seem to be fundamentally different from Elemental Spirits, and I wouldn't doubt that they're native to Lore; just like there are Wind Elves and Sand Elves for example, there can obviously be elementally-aligned beings who don't really have anything to do with the Elemental Planes themselves. The species label of "elemental" in-game is a very broad designation that includes things like Skweel, for example (who is clearly a dragon), along with various monsters and mechanical constructs. It's not really a meaningful title.

As for Theano, the question is how he did it. MS "created" the doom weapons, but all he did was summon Darkness Spirits into the weapons. Elementals that are bound to a gem could be created the same way, presumably, and it's worth pointing out that Theano's creations do all have gems, even the slime-like ones where Slimes usually do not have gems. That said, Theano definitely does seem to be using some unique techniques (and claiming it to be science rather than magic at that) so I don't know if we can say definitively that that's what he's doing. He also mentioned studying golem creation when explaining what he was doing, so they could simply be elementals like those native to Lore, as opposed to capital E Elementals that are Lore-bound Elemental Spirits.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 11/6/2017 23:21:50 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 28
11/7/2017 1:26:32   
Vanilla Icecream

I wonder what in Lore interests Elementals so much that they'd leave their natural habitat despite lacking a human-like mind.
What makes them leave the Plains to come all the way to Lore?
DF  Post #: 29
11/7/2017 2:20:55   

@vanilla icecream

while sepulchure disguised himself as a fire spirit to give the hero akriloth jr.'s egg, he did tell ONE truth:


Nifaria: Human, this may be difficult for you to understand... but this world is a battleground for the great elemental beings...

the eight elements are constantly at war, and lore's balance can only be maintained as long as opposing elements never gain an advantage over each other. lore was made almost ENTIRELY to serve as the battleground on which the eight elements wage their war, since they can't invade opposing planes. if a fire spirit were to by some miracle find its way into the plane of ice, its existence would most likely be completely destroyed immediately on contact. as lore is made up of all the elements, it is the perfect place for them to actually fight each other.
DF  Post #: 30
11/7/2017 8:28:53   


~original: @Greyor_42
lore was made almost ENTIRELY to serve as the battleground on which the eight elements wage their war, since they can't invade opposing planes.

Where did you find this information? As far as I'm aware, none of this has been confirmed in-game or on the forums (at least, since Ash's word was stated to not be canon). It's also not a delineated implication being made by "Nifaria".

I recall in a previous discussion throwing around the idea that Lore was where the planes intersected, but the entire premise of that was hazy at best; it's merely a model that fit into what we know so far.


~original: @Sakurai the Cursed
As for Theano, the question is how he did it.

When playing through the quest, my theory was merely that it was an application of golemancy; elementals' bodies are a kind of golem, if one looks at it from a certain angle. If you created something in between the two, it would rather resemble Theano's disease elementals.
However, this is mere speculation.
It is known, however, that all pure elements have an orb. As far as we know, there is no orb of disease.


~original: @Sakurai the Cursed
So basically, if you want the Avatars to help with the Rose, just trick Jaania into challenging them. It shouldn't even be very hard, she probably already doesn't think much of them.

Jaania is a magical academic, she'd surely have a better idea of the nature of the avatars than, well, anybody.
Additionally, she probably wouldn't challenge one without some clear indication of how to win the fight; which is quite possible. I don't think Jaania subjugating an avatar would be beneficial.
DF MQ  Post #: 31
11/7/2017 21:49:57   

Theano seemed to take a quantity of element, and then through some technique and a lot of raw mana imbued it with Elemental qualities. This seems to line up with earlier concepts that the elements are expressions of mana, or mana that has been aspected into an elemental characteristic. It this is true however:

1. What about Void Elementals?

2. What IS mana?

3. Is this true for pure Elementals, or only Lore-bound manifestations?

4. If mana is the basis of the elements, which are the basis of Lore, which possesses a Mana Core... What came first, the chicken or the egg? (Or is there a plane of mana...?)

Also. I was thinking about the Avatars. We know that if the Elemental Obs are destroyed, things don't go well. Imagine if an Avatar was destroyed, or even weakened to drastic levels (I'm not talking about Fiamme here, I'm talking about going up against Wargoth and getting pummeled within an inch of existence). Might the Avatars not interfere directly in a lot of things because if they did and lost, the consequences would be beyond catastrophic?
Post #: 32
11/8/2017 3:58:04   

As the pure essence of something, elementals just need to represent the purest form of whatever it is they are. Like how Theano created those elementals, using mana as the main energy source can create simple elementals - with the qualities of which the mana is manipulated altering the elemental's characteristics. The increase in intelligence of the elementals would probably be related to an exponential increase in mana required to create or sustain them, if we are focusing on mana alone as their source of creation.
DF  Post #: 33
11/8/2017 10:19:47   

I think you'd find a certain book in a certain inn very informable then!
DF  Post #: 34
11/8/2017 12:04:42   

Now that we are talking about Elemental creation, didn't Voltabolt technically precede Theano in this regard by making a "Metal Elemental"?
DF  Post #: 35
11/8/2017 14:41:41   
Chaosweaver Amon

@Vardius: I donít really think that counts; Voltaboltís creation was just like any old machine. There was no real magic involved, as far as Iím aware.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 36
11/13/2017 22:22:47   

Even if Voltabolt's Elementals are machines, we know that Disease Elementals can come into existence through artificial means...

What makes an Elemental an Elemental? Is it only an alignment to an elemental plane, or must it originate from that elemental plane (think Xan versus MS)?
Post #: 37
11/13/2017 22:45:35   
Chaosweaver Amon

@Steel_King: I think a very broad definition could be that an Elemental must be at least partially created by raw mana, as we saw with the disease Elementals. The basic Elemental monsters appear to simply be pure forms of their respective elements, such as a fire elemental being nothing more than a being of pure fire, darkness elemental being pure darkness, etc. Yet in the case of Xan, it could be argued that his existence is no longer that of a human's. He survives solely due to the permanent healing fire, a result of a single spell. Could he be seen as some sort of half-human half-elemental rather than a pure form of a single element?
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 38
11/14/2017 16:17:13   
Sakurai the Cursed

I think an elemental is merely a being (whether magical, "natural", or technological) that represents or is strongly related to a specific element. From what we know, most beings are made up at least partially by a mix of all the elements, whereas things like the Sandstone for example are presumably made up entirely, or at least almost entirely, of one element; Earth in that case. But as for capital E Elementals, as I said before those seem to specifically be Spirits native to an Elemental Plane that have bound themselves to our Physical Plane. That being said, we also have things like Smoke Elementals, which even have the gems that suggest they are in fact Lore-bound Spirits, but I have no idea what sort of Spirits they would be if so. Whether Voltabolt's and Theano's creations are Elementals or just elementals is also debatable, but I'd wager a guess that Voltabolt at least simply created his Junkyard Driller in the image of what a "Metal Elemental" might look like, and it's labeled as such because it is in fact a being strongly related to one specific element, that being Metal. I suppose it's possible that he created a portal using science to summon a Metal Spirit into the body, but to be blunt that seems a bit advanced for him. :p
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 39
11/14/2017 19:12:57   

It seems to me that elementals are just autonomous magical energy, with more powerful elementals also becoming smarter and having the ability to exert control over weaker ones to some degree (some elementals have demonstrated that they can act outside of their elemental hierarchy such as Mysterious stranger), depending on how they came to be can also impart different attributes upon them, such as Elder elementals from when everything was only darkness are weak to post creation elements as explained by the mysterious stranger; which would explain why we see unbound darkness elements existing in world without issues but others needing to be bound to something in order to survive (as they were not 'born' with the need to be able to survive the other elements).

It's not very clear how elemental realms work, we've seen elementals from them and they generally don't have an issue with existing in lore which contradicts the theory I had on elementals being able to not instantly die in lore because they were born there, that I made in the last paragraph; expect this is also inconsistent. Some darkness elementals still need an item to attach themselves to in order survive in lore and are not from lore such as Caitiff and Caitiff is not an elder one, Caitiff states it's following the orders of Valtrith because he has the Mysterious strangers cloak piece and refer's to it as an elder one implying Caitiff is not an elder one.

As a final Note the MS was able to become the SMUDD by fusing with dragon Drakath because he needed as vessel to survive the world, and does that by joining with the ultimate elemental orb which doesn't make much sense to me. You can't survive in lore but you are bale to merge with something that is pretty much it concentrated massively, which I would assume means that elementals lose the weakness by bonding to something so I guess a Fire elemental could bond with an ice weapon?

The only way I can resolve this is to say that there are multiple different types of elementals and they can also have sub types where Lighting elemental A is very different from Lighting elemental B despite both being basically made of the same basic fundemental components.

TL;DR Elementals are made of magic and even if it's the same element they can still be diverse.

AQ DF  Post #: 40
11/15/2017 1:11:45   

I know this is only going to muddy the water (of the definition of what an elemental is) even further but I think it's worth nothing that elementals apparently can have children with humans (as was the case with Amaris/the Amityville moon).

Whether this is done by the elemental adopting a human form (as is the case with dragons e.g. Nythera's mother) or through some form of magic is still unknown.

Chaney describes the resulting offspring as Half-elemental


Half-elemental... the magic in her blood....

Though I think it's never made clear whether Amaris is Thursday's mother or the mother of one of Thursday's ancestors and whether Thursday herself is a half elemental or the descendant of one.
Post #: 41
11/15/2017 1:24:22   

I think its an ying and yang approach so all elements have a speck of the others inside them so no element can have total control. And before any replies what about the wars. They only lasted because of all the darkness in the villains heart's.
Post #: 42
11/15/2017 2:10:15   


while it's never directly stated word for word, it is pretty much confirmed that thursday is indeed amaris' daughter during the exchange with safiria where we learn about amaris to begin with:


Safiria: She risked leaving the Moon to visit with him and stayed so long it almost cost her her light...
Safiria: ... but they also created a daughter.

Safiria: She managed to leave her diary and note in my tomb.
Safiria: The spectral Moon came so close to setting that she doesn't dare leave it again for any length of time...
Safiria: ... but she wanted Thursday to have her diary.

amaris clearly had to return to the moon almost immediately after having said daughter, so the only way she would be able to tell safiria that she wanted thursday specifically to have her diary, is if thursday herself is amaris' daughter.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 11/15/2017 2:11:10 >
DF  Post #: 43
11/15/2017 2:34:45   


Yeah I got that impression too. Still there enough leeway/wiggle room in the wording that if the staff ever wanted to retcon it as one or the other they could.

Of course the actual question raised is do half-elementals count as elementals? Or should they be classified as human? Or maybe both or neither.

< Message edited by Kyros127 -- 11/15/2017 2:37:06 >
Post #: 44
11/15/2017 3:23:09   


considering the parallels they share, i think that half-elementals should be given a similar classification to half-dragons.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 11/15/2017 3:24:34 >
DF  Post #: 45
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