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RE: =AQ= The Aftermath of War!

 
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11/14/2017 14:42:17   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


^

Chilly armour for December GGBs would be sweet!

Zorbak/Twig/Mogbusters...we could have a whole elemental series. Could even have niche versions like Poelala/Thernda/Dunamis/Dragonslayer Twilly armours
Epic  Post #: 51
11/14/2017 15:03:03   
Andlu
Member

Unrelated to everything, but


The hollow, could we by any chance get some variants of Loco Costume?

Most of us absolutely LOVE that armor and we would love seeing some other elements of it
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 52
11/14/2017 15:03:45   
CH4OT1C!
Member

I completely agree with what @afterlifex has said. Locking some specific effects to melee only would be the way to go with this situation. The 2 major issues I see with warrior at the moment on the competitive side is that:
1). They lack utility relative to other builds
2). They lack the competition to rival the "blood" boosts of mages

The second issue applies to other builds of course, as beast builds without INT suffer from the same problem (BoW somewhat alleviated the problem, but is still not nearly on the same scale). It does not however make it any less vital to address the situation. To address the first issue, a simple way to get around it would be to create some more utility melee weapons. Of course that statement is a little vague, so I'll be a little more specific:

A major thing we see with mage builds is the variety of spells, both damage and utility, at our disposal. We have gandolphin for mana shields, tome of cerberus for chi shields. and multiple other status effects are locked behind mage only spells. An example of this would be chocolate syrup, which sacrifices a good half of it's damage just to inflict a powerful daze onto the enemy. In comparison, the only real melee weapon a warrior has to combat this kind of potent status effect is the toxic gladius and even that has a melee/magic toggle! For thermal shock, mages have had access to drakonnan's fury for half a decade, with warriors not getting even an option until earlier this year (boiler buddy) and even then it wasn't limited to warriors, AND behind a donation barrier. Mages can even benefit from moonwalker's grace, a spell which allows them to literally buff their own stats. Warrior's don't even have a shield with an STR drive, let alone a weapon that can do something of a similar nature. This comparison only becomes more stark when you start looking at weapons. Mages have access to weapons such as big dictionary, a weapon with an in-built spell that can boost your mrm. Warriors have nothing exclusive to them that can even come close. Similarly, prismatic paintbrush, is currently the only item that can inflict the "new" the cold status effect, and is solely magic (not sure why prismatic paintbrush doesn't inflict a prismatic burn, but that's a conversation for another day). I could carry on for quite some time throwing out additional examples of items locked to mages where warriors have no equipment, but that would definitely be moving down a tangent.

It's pretty obvious that in terms of utility, warriors are totally outmatched, and a really quick way to solve the problem would just be to provide more melee weapons/warrior items with utility effects solely based for warriors. A shield with an STR drive to give warriors something equivalent to celtic wheel. Simple things like this will help put warriors on a more even footing. We have a multitude of status effects unused for warrior, notably chi shield (cerberus ward scales with INT, we could use one that scales with STR, or END, or anything that isn't INT at this point). Other examples of this would be the cold, the different elemental freezes (haven't got anything for some of these yet) and prismatic burn. We also have status effects monsters have access to but players currently don't. Examples of this would be "devoured" (the titanus boss), "necrotic link" (undead limkragg), and "haunted" (the wicked king). Obviously, these would have to be correctly scaled and modified for player usage, but there's nothing to stop them from being applied to an item specifically designed for warriors to help them even up the competitive scene. [Insert shameless plug here] If you're having trouble coming up with some ideas, the suggestion forums have some really interesting and unique takes on the ideas. I deliberately design most of the items in my thread to be as unique as I physically can because a lot of specific status' and ideas are underutilised. A lot of my suggestions are made with mages in mind, but there's nothing to stop some of the ideas being properly translated into warrior only utility. However, to put this into practice, how about a melee weapon with a toggle quickcast SP skill to give you +87 STR for 3 rounds, much like moonwalker's grace does for DEX.

The other side of this issue is of course warriors lacking a competitive edge to match the bloodmage armours. Now of course, an easy fix to that solution would be just to create respective "blood-warriors" but honestly I don't feel like this is the way we should be going here. Bloodmages are already pretty divisive in that some people love them, and others think they go too far in terms of nukable potential. I think adding something like "blood-warrior" would just end up with further power creep and more intense division between warriors as to whom wants to use them or not. Having an item change the warrior meta doesn't necessarily have to be done in exactly the same way as bloodmage does for mages to make them competitive, and I'm not sure exactly how many people would support it anyway. I haven't really come up with a decent solution to this particular problem as of yet. With that said, adding utility to warrior inventories is definitely going to give them more of a competitive edge to them than they have currently, and would at least give players an option should they not want to go down the nuke route. Again, completely agree with @afterlifex in that whilst warrior only nukes would definitely get more people interested in warriors, saturating the market would probably not be the best way to solve the situation.

I think there's a lot of potential scope for warrior's to be changed up as long as those 2 major issues are addressed. By addressing those 2 issues, I think you solve the issue of the warrior build's lack of competitiveness. Of course, rearranging the game balance to suit warriors is also an option, but it seems really rather unnecessary when the problem is more equipment based. I also totally disagree with changing how SP works because mages also use SP.
AQ  Post #: 53
11/14/2017 15:28:32   
WalterTM
Member

Well, I myself find Zork's idea of having a "two handed mode" amazing.

I could never understand the idea of being able to unequip your shield, when most of the time, at least at higher levels there is no reason to do so. Also, CIT is clearly outdated as Zork has mentioned and a strenght based no shield dmg boosting system would solve both the CIT issue and give an actual reason to unequip one's shield.

One thing thing that I'd love to see besides the "two handed mode" is a bit more love to axe and mace type weapons. We don't even have a mace master emblem yet, but correct me if I'm wrong. RX For Destruction is still one of my favourit weapons, I'd love to see a lvl 150 variant, or similar.
AQ  Post #: 54
11/14/2017 15:51:33   
bluchill
Member

dual wield from Assassin could become a quite popular thing
AQ  Post #: 55
11/14/2017 15:57:25   
LUPUL LUNATIC
Member
 

I really do like a Dual-Wield system for melee/ranged weapons for Warriors when you have no Shield equipped and it does feel very warriorish in this sense.
2 Weapons that hit for 2 elements and share their weapon effects would make CIT look like a joke but i figure would be hard to implement.

A new Spell that boosts Melee damage by a considerable amount for 1 turn with a HP cost (like a Rage spell).
STR drive Shield, maybe melee /ranged weapons passively have a chance to restore some SP.
But Dual Wield would be incredible.
AQ  Post #: 56
11/14/2017 16:38:04   
Lineolata
Member
 

Another issue with the warrior/mage disparity: A warrior's basic attack is his melee attack, which of course does 100% melee, while his powerful attacks use SP. SP starts out empty and refills at a fixed rate over time, meaning that warriors usually need to use low-upkeep miscs and save skills for bosses and other powerful enemies. Meanwhile, a mage's basic attack is his spell, which does 200% melee and has a great variety of spell-boosters. In theory, this is balanced by the need for MP (and HP, in some cases), but MP starts off full and is refilled every 2 battles with regular mobs, or even after 1 battle with a more challenging enemy. Spells are powerful enough that a suitably equipped mage can, by sheer damage or MP regen such as the Rejuvenating Necklace, nuke down two mobs with his MP bar, which immediately refills afterward, if it was even fully consumed.

In short: a warrior can freely attack, but must limit his usage of skills. A mage can freely cast spells for the same base damage as a skill, since his usage need not be limited.
AQ DF  Post #: 57
11/14/2017 16:54:22   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@linneolata
It's a disparity yes, but not an unbalanced one. Whilst outdated, the 20 turn model doesn't factor in SP, and SP is able to be utilised irrespective of build regardless:
20*100% melee = 2000% melee
16*75% +4*200% = 2000% melee
in terms of basic attack strength. Both regenerate SP at the same rate and can use that SP for whatever they then choose. Your point is irrelevant unless SP was specifically designed with warriors in mind, which it isn't. You're assuming that SP should be an inherent part of that formula, and whilst it should be, in actuality it isn't. We shouldn't forget that SP is there and that it should factor into damage as a whole. However, all being said, it's useful to everyone equally, whether you're a mage, warrior hybrid or any other build you can think of.

Yes, your point is valid, but that is also the balance model. Without changing up that balance model, relatively little can be done about the point you're trying to address without changing the system or making all mana regeneration pointless.
AQ  Post #: 58
11/14/2017 16:54:53   
dragonfire1423
Member

Well while I understand the disparity between Mana and SP with mana refilling, there is the admittedly tedious process of using the Combat Trainer to fill your SP when you log in, and just sort of try and use manageable-upkeep misc.

I feel like a buff might be needed to melee, whatever it will be, because nobody really wants a straight nerf to mages. Though eventually a power-creep is going to lead to a catchall optimum strategy that, if ever crossed by something better, will just let that something's build be flat out stupid powerful.
AQ MQ AQW  Post #: 59
11/14/2017 17:02:21   
Lineolata
Member
 

That's fair, but there are two resources that could be changed. MP could be made less trivially easy to regain without affecting SP, I feel. For example, you could still get your HP refilled every 2 battles and make MP refilled somewhat less often. That's possibly too much of an extreme change to the basics of the game, but there are other sources of MP gain that can be tweaked, like the Rejuvenating Necklace.
AQ DF  Post #: 60
11/14/2017 17:12:10   
RMC
Member

quote:

One GGB we will definitely do for December will be a holday-themed Bard of War!


Sweet, Much appreciated staff !
AQ  Post #: 61
11/14/2017 17:13:30   
Zeruphantom
Member

quote:

Well while I understand the disparity between Mana and SP with mana refilling, there is the admittedly tedious process of using the Combat Trainer to fill your SP when you log in, and just sort of try and use manageable-upkeep misc.


Tip: Not sure if you're aware of this, but you can use your Windter Crown for basically unlimited SP. Fight a high level monster, make sure the final blow is done with Windter Crown activated, then you earn MurderKillosity (MK). Click on the misc to convert MK into a huge chunk of SP which fills up like 60% of your SP bar. Negates the need for Combat Trainer spam.
AQ Epic  Post #: 62
11/14/2017 18:06:14   
High Paladin
Member

Which is great if you have that rare item, but excludes a whole bunch of people, including the character that he has listed
AQ  Post #: 63
11/14/2017 18:43:44   
J9408
Member
 

Come to think of it, why is the Assassin armor the only armor that could duel wield?

I always found it odd that we have had armors like StarSavior and Samurai Warlord O-Yoroi that show two weapons but could only use one element. Why not create armors that allow dual wielding? In exchange the player must take extra damage.
Post #: 64
11/14/2017 18:45:12   
WindyFlames
Member
 

Changing the regen formula for SP to have a set gain on SP and then add it based on STR and END would be ideal, mainly because those stats support 'vitality/stamina'. STR would be a secondary add-on and END would be the primary, making END an actual useful stat for a change (opens up new builds) and can change players to make it more of a priority/decision choice. That way, warriors don't lose damage/SP, mages keep their original MP/SP formula. This would also make more miscs viable depending on how heavily invested someone trains their END while keeping their SP cost at a stable level for next fights.
Making werewolf ultimate SP/HP cost doesn't solve the general issue of SP being lacking for warriors as a whole and for warriors who go Vamp w/ INT items for the crazy HP regen and RP reason. Besides,it wouldn't make sense to make werewolves ultimate to cost HP because from a RP standpoint, it goes against the 'regenerative' properties their species possess. Then again, regen is already a joke topic based on its formula for all levels.
Post #: 65
11/14/2017 18:57:23   
CH4OT1C!
Member

I know that it isn't part of this section of the forums, but nevertheless:
quote:

From The FSI:
SP being boosted by stats: No, this goes against the very purpose of SP, which is to be a build-independent statistic.


It's deliberately designed to be build independent. It isn't factored into the 20 turn model, the model used for balancing items as of right now. I sincerely doubt this is the right way to go about fixing warrior, given it was never intended to be for warriors alone in the first place.
AQ  Post #: 66
11/14/2017 19:01:01   
Kilvakar
Member

I've said this many times before in other forums, but more item support for warriors would be greatly appreciated, I think. Celtic Wheel is a key part of most Mages' inventories because of it's INT boost. A STR variant would make Warriors very happy, although there should be multiple elemental versions as they aren't as bursty as Mages and thus can't afford a shield of a "wrong" element a lot of the time.

The Windter Crown is an amazing way to keep up SP, which Warriors rely on. More items like the Windter set would be awesome. And more shields with the Soul of Sole effect I'm sure would be useful.

I agree that paying HP for more damage would be a nice mechanic to see more of for Warriors as well. Either through armor effects like MPV, miscs like Blood Contract, or guests that use HP rather than SP like Skeeter.

Also, armors with SP-using skills that scale off of STR would be cool. A good example is the now-rare Zardribargribarg SPell. (Now I'm imagining a whole DBZ-themed warrior set, lol!)

That said, changing how SP works is NOT a good idea, imo. All classes and builds use it to some degree or other, but especially SP-hungry builds like Warriors or any Beastmaster build could certainly use some more ways of regenerating it faster. (BTW, the new Werewolf subrace armor combined with Soul of Sole or Ultraguardian shield is a great way to keep up your SP)

But on the topic of GGBs, I'm still happy to see Lumenomancer items coming out, looking forward to (I'm assuming) the other variants whenever they arrive. And a Bard of War clone? That's amazing news! Again, I can't thank you enough for releasing new versions of coveted items that are unavailable to a lot of people. The rare collectors should be satisfied with the fact that they have the original version that will remain rare, while newer players get a chance to get the awesome effects of those items. This past year (aside from the Truphma Saga cancellation) has been a huge increase in quality for AQ releases, thanks!
AQ  Post #: 67
11/14/2017 19:16:27   
Zeruphantom
Member

quote:

Which is great if you have that rare item, but excludes a whole bunch of people, including the character that he has listed


I was specifically referring to him because his char listed does have Windter Crown.

quote:

Friendship Bracelet
Kitsune Mask
13th Mask
Mirrored Specs
Windter Crown
Shachihoko Jaw
Greater Water Orb
Sword Master Emblem G
AQ Epic  Post #: 68
11/14/2017 20:18:40   
High Paladin
Member

Whoops, I was looking at the wrong character...hehe my bad

quote:

I know that it isn't part of this section of the forums, but nevertheless:
quote:

From The FSI:
SP being boosted by stats: No, this goes against the very purpose of SP, which is to be a build-independent statistic.


It's deliberately designed to be build independent. It isn't factored into the 20 turn model, the model used for balancing items as of right now. I sincerely doubt this is the right way to go about fixing warrior, given it was never intended to be for warriors alone in the first place.

That's true, but MP for quite some time was also utilizable (to a certain extent) by Warriors/Non-INT builds as well, like in many RPGs. Ever since it was changed so that anyone without INT has only 131 MP, it has effectively become a resource based purely on INT, which wasn't the case when the FSI was written.

IMO buffing SP regen/SP maximum off of STR wouldn't really be making it a "warrior only" resource, it would just give Warriors more to work with by making up for the nerfed MP bar. That said, it could easily make hybrids insanely good which isn't really fixing the problem either. So I would agree it probably isn't going to happen.
AQ  Post #: 69
11/14/2017 20:41:11   
BillzaHale
Member
 

Just want to voice my support for a Chilly Armor/Chilly Form for December GGB
Post #: 70
11/14/2017 21:07:31   
ShadowBeastReaper
Member

My vision of new armor. shield and mace. How about a huge brutal black knight wields BIG wicked Morning Star weapon. Wicked and monstrous. A rough armor. Allow you brutal swings with three to five hits. Add skill is "Mighty blow" or "Final blow" to deal massive damages.
AQ  Post #: 71
11/14/2017 21:28:49   
Zeldax
Member

^So uhh, Morningstar with a skill?

@below
He mentioned a huge brutal black knight that wields a morningstar weapon. King's Reign isn't really a black knight nor does it wield a morningstar weapon (unless you use the weapon from the quest)

< Message edited by Zeldax -- 11/14/2017 23:03:08 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 72
11/14/2017 22:17:23   
Kilvakar
Member

^ Or King's Reign with a skill?
AQ  Post #: 73
11/14/2017 23:06:56   
King Lathas
Member

^ Literally Kindred's niche if we're talking about a ''massive hit.''. Oh btw, please update that set. Would love to have that armor set be viable.
AQ  Post #: 74
11/14/2017 23:27:46   
Caecus
Member

Super unpopular opinion incoming (and a long post haha) but I stand by it and welcome any debate:

Warriors shouldn’t have that many burst options. Armor skills and SPells are more than enough. Burst damage should remain a primarily mage skillset while warriors should get more weapons that are/get better over time.



My reasoning's below the dotted line, but first:


Tl;dr:


As I see it, the warrior/mage dichotomy is meant to be

“warriors focus on their weapons and are very efficient and very hard to kill while mages focus on their spells and are very versatile and hit very hard”.

One can think of warriors vs mages much like FD VS FO respectively. FD is objectively more efficient and optimal but, barring rare exceptions like the wicked king, it is currently “unnecessary” and thus players shift over to faster options like bursts. Rather than making warriors do what mages do (burst), we should make them better at what they are supposed to be good at (sustained damage) and make that style of play worthwhile.


******************************************************************************************

Players seem to dislike that warriors lack burst options. This is odd to me since intrinsically, that’s sort of the point of a mage/warrior divide. Mages burst short fights easily. Warriors are suited for tanks and long fights. The real issue with warriors is threefold.

1: Long fights no longer really exists in AQ and thus the warrior skillset is largely unnecessary


2: The majority of players (looking at you FO crowd) hate long battles and thus won’t like how warriors are built to play thematically


3: At present, warriors don’t have an abundance of weapons suited to long drawn out battles and thus lack strategic depth


1:

In day to day questing warriors don’t need to be as efficient as they are. They excel in long drawn out battles but those don’t really exist anymore. That’s not to say that warriors are strictly worse than mages, (they are but I’ll get to that in point 3) merely it shows that warriors should have a different niche than mages in the 20 turn model.

However, the 20 turn model is outdated and thus warrior’s expectations are not routinely met. Remember, even given the 20 turn model, a warrior doesn’t see any advantage over a mage until turn 20 whereas the first 19 turns are all advantage for the mage. This means that for warriors to be on par with mages, 50% of battles (lets just assume we’re thinking boss fights here) would have to go longer than 20 and some all the way out to 40 turns. Since almost no normal battles last nearly this long, warriors are at a permanent “disadvantage” or (more accurately “lack of advantage”). This could be remedied with changes to monsters or additions of more tanks but then we see problem 2.

2:


Even if there were more long fights there would be tremendous backlash because many players hate these fights since they are slow. The minotaur maze, essence of wind dragon, and bun bits (despite the low health) all represent quests/monsters that extend battles and should be better suited to warriors. However these are some of the most reviled fights in the game. Most players like doing lots of damage fast which is why warriors are clamoring for more burst options but that doesn’t mean it should happen. This is an issue with player preference and can’t really be solved per se but I don’t think that it’s unfair to point out the disconnect. Player preference is important, this is a game after all, but it shouldn’t alter the themes of the game to fit the whims of the players. Honestly, in most games the answer is simply “ if you want x ability play y class” I don’t see why that should change here.

Note:

If we are going to cave and give warriors more burst options, then melee locked is probably the way to go. Anything else is intrinsically available to mages and doesn’t bring parity. However, my suggestion is instead to bring parity by offering warriors more utility options.



3:

I am certainly for the creation of more potent status weapons for warriors. Status effects by and large fit into the long battle mentality so weapons that bleed/burn/daze etc are all fair play. Giving up damage for larger effects over time works very well. This offers warriors strategic depth that keeps the game interesting while keeping them from being merely “pseudo mages”. Right now mages have a lot more to work with strategically and that contributes to their relative power. Warrior oriented miscs, weapons, and SPells that exchange lots of base damage for more powerful effects could be a good start. Sadly I think most warriors would still turn this down given the relative disuse of items like toxic gladius or armors like Fat and Tacky Santa but at least they should have the option. More options are always better in this sense and keeping them melee locked would make sure that warriors were the primary recipients of any benefits.



To reiterate, I think this is more of a monster/playerbase issue than a build one. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t many ways to go about solving it but I hope the concerns I’ve raised will make people think about what changes can be made that keep the variability in build themes intact, lest we lose the differences that make choosing a build meaningful.
Post #: 75
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